What all does a lifestyle really get you? In this case, I've bought a high lifestyle for my character. It says he gets a car, but what else? Tres Chic suits? Fine Clothes? Telecom with videos and such?
JaronK
Full Version: Lifestyle Question
Oy.
GM opinions differ on this one.
My group says transportation does not come included with lifestyle. The average NPC who could afford a High lifestyle would have access to a car, but it doesn't mean it comes part and parcel.
Clothing that befits the lifestyle are available, as are real foods (at High) and most of the home luxuries like cable, internet access and so on.
-Siege
GM opinions differ on this one.
My group says transportation does not come included with lifestyle. The average NPC who could afford a High lifestyle would have access to a car, but it doesn't mean it comes part and parcel.
Clothing that befits the lifestyle are available, as are real foods (at High) and most of the home luxuries like cable, internet access and so on.
-Siege
The advanced lifestyle rules in SSG cover this in good detail.
Generally, though-- High and above lifestyles have access to cars whenever they need it. It won't be a good shadowrunning car, but they don't have to take the bus or monorail. He'll have access to high-speed Matrix access, but not necessarily good decker access-- it's a bit like trying to hack across your dad's DSL modem. You'll have access to suits and ties and so on, but not necessarily really great designer labels; you can assume that you have access to a dry cleaner, though.
In general, having a high and above lifestyle only provides "color" benefits, and not specific in-game advantages. There are some specific advantages that you can gain, but unless you've been injured or are a rigger, you won't have to worry about them too much.
Generally, though-- High and above lifestyles have access to cars whenever they need it. It won't be a good shadowrunning car, but they don't have to take the bus or monorail. He'll have access to high-speed Matrix access, but not necessarily good decker access-- it's a bit like trying to hack across your dad's DSL modem. You'll have access to suits and ties and so on, but not necessarily really great designer labels; you can assume that you have access to a dry cleaner, though.
In general, having a high and above lifestyle only provides "color" benefits, and not specific in-game advantages. There are some specific advantages that you can gain, but unless you've been injured or are a rigger, you won't have to worry about them too much.
SSG covers in detail all the lifestyle stuff, but doesn't mention transportation. I'd say it's GM's call. However, I wouldn't give the character a car unless he buys it. Maybe he has a driver he can call like a shuttle type thing like in hotels with his building.
The Abstruse One
The Abstruse One
Rigger 3 is pretty explicit about a car not being part of your lifestyle. The lifestyle can provide some cash for vehicle mainteance. SSG lifestyles provide neither.
You can always take the tube or cabs as part of your lifestyle, though.
You can always take the tube or cabs as part of your lifestyle, though.
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| Rigger 3 is pretty explicit about a car not being part of your lifestyle. The lifestyle can provide some cash for vehicle mainteance. SSG lifestyles provide neither. You can always take the tube or cabs as part of your lifestyle, though. |
Which means having a SIN or a good fake ID.
Personally I'd rule that you have access to a car, driven by someone else for basic "getting around" purposes.
Shadowbeat also had a lot of detail about which electronics were included at various lifestyles. It'll probably need updating though.
Why would you need a SIN, fake or legit, for taking public transportation or cabs?
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Why would you need a SIN, fake or legit, for taking public transportation or cabs? |
<scene>
"You're recording where I went?"
"Hey bub, taxi commission rules."
(glare from passenger)
"You need gas."
(driver glances at the fuel gauge reading full)
"Hey, you're right."
(sees gas being delivered to a station and drives into it causing a huge bang)
</scene>
For some reason that scene sprang to mind. But to answer your question, it's because the tube and most cab services will require at least a rating 2 credstick. I'd imagine there are some cab companies that have a policy of taking on people for cash or certified cred, but expect higher rates and nothing extra.
See page 240 of SR3 for information on what each lifestyle includes by the standard rules.
Luxury lifestyles include ritzy clothing, a household staff, a powerful car, a cool house, VIP status at clubs and restaraunts, and the works. High lifestyles include a luxury commuter car at his beck and call. Middle lifestyles include a commuter car or tube pass. Everything lower lacks a vehicle.
Optional rules, such as those in Rigger 3 and the Sprawl Survival Guide, go out of their way to state that vehicles aren't included, or at most have a reduced overhead cost. But the standard rules, as written, most certainly do include a vehicle with the top three. So it basically comes down to which rules are in use in any given game.
Luxury lifestyles include ritzy clothing, a household staff, a powerful car, a cool house, VIP status at clubs and restaraunts, and the works. High lifestyles include a luxury commuter car at his beck and call. Middle lifestyles include a commuter car or tube pass. Everything lower lacks a vehicle.
Optional rules, such as those in Rigger 3 and the Sprawl Survival Guide, go out of their way to state that vehicles aren't included, or at most have a reduced overhead cost. But the standard rules, as written, most certainly do include a vehicle with the top three. So it basically comes down to which rules are in use in any given game.
It was my understanding that rules in Rigger 3 or SSG are only optional if so noted.
-Siege
-Siege
I suppose you can just not use anything in R3 or SSG at all. But if you use part of the book, you should use all of the non-optional rules in it, generally.
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| It was my understanding that rules in Rigger 3 or SSG are only optional if so noted. -Siege |
So groups that only play with the core rulebook are still bound by all the optional rules from supplements, eh?
| QUOTE |
| For some reason that scene sprang to mind. But to answer your question, it's because the tube and most cab services will require at least a rating 2 credstick. I'd imagine there are some cab companies that have a policy of taking on people for cash or certified cred, but expect higher rates and nothing extra. |
Why on earth do you think that? cash and certified cred are just as valid as a credstick for transactions like that. Furthermore cash and certified cred don't have to be declared on taxes for the cabbie as tips since they're untraceable.
And I don't know about you, but I wouldn't give my credit card number to a cabbie or bus driver unless I had absolutely no other choice. Not once have I paid for a cab, bus, train or subway token with anything other than cash, and I intend to keep it that way. We Americans are way too cavalier with our identification information, especially with the recent surge in ID theft. I imagine in a world where computers are even more easily corruptable people would be even less likely to trust other people with their credstick info.
I find it patently ridiculous that you need a SIN to pay to ride public transit or take a cab. If canon explicitly states this, canon is explicitly wrong.
I just chalk it up to Big Brother keeping his on eye on all us little brothers.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| I find it patently ridiculous that you need a SIN to pay to ride public transit or take a cab. If canon explicitly states this, canon is explicitly wrong. |
Not really. Several areas ( I know Atlanta does) have mechanisms in place to track people using such means of transportation. Now, you're right, it is possible to ride public transport and take a cab here without id, but remenber what a credstick is. It's social security card, credit card, debt card, and id rolled into one. With that and the assumption that the authority in question only wants the SUBSIDIZED service available to tax payers, then the id check can be built into the system payment method. Very simple. Doing the same for cabs is also possible. In the barrens, hell no, you won't find this, and probably not in most middle-lifestyle neighborhoods, but in the higher class ones then yes. See, many police forces are pushing for this right now. Watch law and order sometime - 7 out of 10 episodes they talk to a cabbie. Now that is NY, but anywhere with a large enough cabbie population would face the same situation. With the pressure to solve cases, I see LS pushing for this.
Yeah, I realize that it's a good method for tracking people if you are intent on only allowing subsidized service for those paying taxes, but that's the part I find exceedingly hard to swallow. I cannot accept that the system would explicitly deny public transportation to the disenfranchised. And for cabs, which are privately run, it's simply terrible business practice. I can't see Lonestar or Knight Errant or any other private law enforcement firm being able to levy such heavy legislation.
I can't see any cabbie turning down good money for any safe reason.
But all that aside-- while the rules say that a high lifestyle means you have a car at your beck and call, that doesn't mean you actually own it. It could mean that your fake ID has a contract with a Flexcar service. Or that you've bribed the local taxi company. The possibilities go on and on. For Luxury lifestyles, I generally interpret it as meaning that you've got a contract with a local limo company.
As a general rule, I allow people to own cars for free, as part of their lifestyle; but they're stock-models only with active gridguide and termination chips. If you want to take it on a Shadowrun, you *will* be traced nine ways from Sunday. I assume any car bought with starting funds/in game has been modified appropriately, unless otherwise specified.
But all that aside-- while the rules say that a high lifestyle means you have a car at your beck and call, that doesn't mean you actually own it. It could mean that your fake ID has a contract with a Flexcar service. Or that you've bribed the local taxi company. The possibilities go on and on. For Luxury lifestyles, I generally interpret it as meaning that you've got a contract with a local limo company.
As a general rule, I allow people to own cars for free, as part of their lifestyle; but they're stock-models only with active gridguide and termination chips. If you want to take it on a Shadowrun, you *will* be traced nine ways from Sunday. I assume any car bought with starting funds/in game has been modified appropriately, unless otherwise specified.
Car rental is shown as an expense in the SSG. It's 500 
a week, and I'd assume that it might come along with some High and all Luxury lifestyles, if you want it. You would not, however, own the vehicle which can be important since you really couldn't get one without a SIN (real or fake).
For public transportation... if you don't let the SINless ride the bus, how are you ever going to get your nice lawn mowed or your windows washed? The SINless fill out most of the deadend, mindless jobs society has to offer. Almost 30% of the population couldn't ride the bus/tube/rail/whatever if you said that they couldn't use it without a SIN (fake IDs are relatively rare, I assume).
a week, and I'd assume that it might come along with some High and all Luxury lifestyles, if you want it. You would not, however, own the vehicle which can be important since you really couldn't get one without a SIN (real or fake).For public transportation... if you don't let the SINless ride the bus, how are you ever going to get your nice lawn mowed or your windows washed? The SINless fill out most of the deadend, mindless jobs society has to offer. Almost 30% of the population couldn't ride the bus/tube/rail/whatever if you said that they couldn't use it without a SIN (fake IDs are relatively rare, I assume).
| QUOTE (A Rodent of Unusual Size) | ||
So groups that only play with the core rulebook are still bound by all the optional rules from supplements, eh? |
Ahhh, one of those.
They can hardly be bound by optional rules from supplements if the rules are defined as optional.
If they are unaware or choose to disregard rules that the manufacturer fails to designate as optional -- nobody but you will give a damn either way.
-Siege
I hate to break it to you, sunshine, but you're the one having a problem with it. If someone is just using the core rulebook, Middle lifestyle and up includes a car. If using one of the two supplements (which by definition are optional) that changes those core rules, then they don't.
I have no frelling clue why you have a problem understanding that. It's not exactly a complicated concept.
I have no frelling clue why you have a problem understanding that. It's not exactly a complicated concept.
Uhm, Rodent, did you read the part of Siege's post that says no one's going to care anyway? You should.
I'm not the one whining about it, he is. So obviously he does care. Significantly so.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Uhm, Rodent, did you read the part of Siege's post that says no one's going to care anyway? You should. |
Doc Funk lives.
Save your breath Areth -- when the personality type in question loses an argument or might be proven to be in error, said personality type resorts to personal attacks in an effort to divert attention from the mistake.
-Siege
<just rolls his eyes yet again> Feel free to point out the mistake.
Once again, you're the dumbass that doesn't understand that supplementals = optional rules. Not anywhere in my original post, you know the one you responded to with your "der, I didn't realize dey wuz optional, duh huh!" reply, did I say that the rules in R3 or SSG weren't official rules. I only pointed out that the core rulebook says certain lifestyles come with cars, while the other two optional sourcebooks say otherwise, and that it comes down to which rules you're using.
And like I said in a later post, I have no bloody idea why you're having such a hard time grasping that pathetically simple concept.
Once again, you're the dumbass that doesn't understand that supplementals = optional rules. Not anywhere in my original post, you know the one you responded to with your "der, I didn't realize dey wuz optional, duh huh!" reply, did I say that the rules in R3 or SSG weren't official rules. I only pointed out that the core rulebook says certain lifestyles come with cars, while the other two optional sourcebooks say otherwise, and that it comes down to which rules you're using.
And like I said in a later post, I have no bloody idea why you're having such a hard time grasping that pathetically simple concept.
I could see the rigger rules having different things for lifestyle perks than your general SR3 runners. It'd be a quick way of preventing a rigger from trying to say "Oh but the drones and Panzer are free with my lifestyle!"
The cars listed as available to lifestyles in basic rules, I would imagine fall under the generics: Americar, Eurocar Westwind, etc for the various levels of lifestyle. Personally, as much as I like fooling around with the rigger books and building a James Bond racer, in game, I tend to go with motorcycles, or let someone else drive
The cars listed as available to lifestyles in basic rules, I would imagine fall under the generics: Americar, Eurocar Westwind, etc for the various levels of lifestyle. Personally, as much as I like fooling around with the rigger books and building a James Bond racer, in game, I tend to go with motorcycles, or let someone else drive
I'd write a more detailed tirade on "optional" vs. "advanced" rules but it's just not worth it. In either case, there are a lot of potential abuses inherent in letting people have vehicles as part of their lifestyle. The core rulebook also states that adepts can buy power points with karma, but that rule is replaced by the initiation rules if you're using MitS (per the FAQ). Does that mean you can play with the rules the way they are in the core rulebook?
Yes, if you so choose. However, it is also correct to say that that those rules are replaced by initiation.
In your game, you can do whatever you want. You can give fraggin' citymasters out with low lifestyle if that's what you want. But in the whole body of Shadowrun, the advanced-but-not-optional rules state that vehicles don't come with lifestyles.
Yes, if you so choose. However, it is also correct to say that that those rules are replaced by initiation.
In your game, you can do whatever you want. You can give fraggin' citymasters out with low lifestyle if that's what you want. But in the whole body of Shadowrun, the advanced-but-not-optional rules state that vehicles don't come with lifestyles.
And even then it depends on which rules you're using, just like I originally said. SSG's rules are different than those for R3. R3 are different than those in SR3. The first two are optional rules within the game, whereas the last is the core rule.
Again, there's a big difference between advanced and optional. R3 and SSG aren't contradictory, either. R3 is a modificiation to the core rules and SSG is a completely seperate system for lifestyles akin to priorities vs. points for character generation.
<sighs>
Supplements = optional rules. Whether you want to call them "advanced" or not is unimportant. They're not required to play, and are thus optional by definition. That doesn't make them any less official or any less dismissible, but the core rules in SR3 are the default. I'd have said the exact same thing if someone was asking how adepts advance; by the core rules, they can buy power points with Karma. By the optional rules in MitS, they initiate instead. Same. Exact. Difference.
Did you guys even read my original post? Particularly the very last line? And people say I argue for the sake of arguing.
Supplements = optional rules. Whether you want to call them "advanced" or not is unimportant. They're not required to play, and are thus optional by definition. That doesn't make them any less official or any less dismissible, but the core rules in SR3 are the default. I'd have said the exact same thing if someone was asking how adepts advance; by the core rules, they can buy power points with Karma. By the optional rules in MitS, they initiate instead. Same. Exact. Difference.
Did you guys even read my original post? Particularly the very last line? And people say I argue for the sake of arguing.
| QUOTE (Siege) | ||||
Ahhh, one of those. They can hardly be bound by optional rules from supplements if the rules are defined as optional. If they are unaware or choose to disregard rules that the manufacturer fails to designate as optional -- nobody but you will give a damn either way. -Siege |
I know Siege rightly advised me tos tay clear of this thread, and I will be, but for the moment, perhaps I should be the one sighing? And perhaps you should acknowledge teh simple fact that rules in supplements you have access to are only as optional as any rule not explicitly called so. And perhaps comprehension of written word is not your strongpoint. And perhaps you simply failed to notice that he specified that optional rules are, obviously enough, optional by definition. Perhaps you simply failed to notice that no one cares if you want to disredard rules not explicitly considered optional. And perhaps you should listen to all these people saying you argue because you can.
I'll say it one more time just for you, Arethusa.
They're optional because they're not required to play. If you're not using those books in your game, they're a moot point; hence the reference to the original rules on lifestyles in my first post.
Go. Back. And. Read. It. Before. You. Reply. Read it in full. Use those "reading comprehension" powers you're apparently so proud of. Comprehend the post. Especially the last sentence. The once where it says, and I quote myself, "So it basically comes down to which rules are in use in any given game."
Gasp!
I'm sorry if you guys are getting your knickers in a twist because you can't possibly comprehend that supplements are completely optional. That's your inability to put simple concepts together, not mine.
As for Siege, he's the one that was acting like an ass by saying "and no one will care but you" despite the fact that he had spent two posts whining about it. Go figure.
They're optional because they're not required to play. If you're not using those books in your game, they're a moot point; hence the reference to the original rules on lifestyles in my first post.
Go. Back. And. Read. It. Before. You. Reply. Read it in full. Use those "reading comprehension" powers you're apparently so proud of. Comprehend the post. Especially the last sentence. The once where it says, and I quote myself, "So it basically comes down to which rules are in use in any given game."
Gasp!
I'm sorry if you guys are getting your knickers in a twist because you can't possibly comprehend that supplements are completely optional. That's your inability to put simple concepts together, not mine.
As for Siege, he's the one that was acting like an ass by saying "and no one will care but you" despite the fact that he had spent two posts whining about it. Go figure.
You know, technically, you can play the game without ever using any magic. Which makes the magic rules optional. You can also play without using cyberware, which makes the cyberware rules optional. You can play without using any rules, which makes all rules optional.
The basis for discussion on this board is generally the body of canon rules which starts with the core rulebook and goes to the "big 5" addons (ie, Man and Machine, Matrix, Cannon Companion, Magic in the Shadows, and Rigger 3). Are these rules optional? Yes, in the same sense that all rules are optional. But calling them optional muddies conversation.
There are truely optional rules (those marked with an "optional" tag such as Deadlier Over Damage and Armor Degredation) and when you use the word "optional" that is what it means in the context of SR.
The basis for discussion on this board is generally the body of canon rules which starts with the core rulebook and goes to the "big 5" addons (ie, Man and Machine, Matrix, Cannon Companion, Magic in the Shadows, and Rigger 3). Are these rules optional? Yes, in the same sense that all rules are optional. But calling them optional muddies conversation.
There are truely optional rules (those marked with an "optional" tag such as Deadlier Over Damage and Armor Degredation) and when you use the word "optional" that is what it means in the context of SR.
| QUOTE |
| The basis for discussion on this board is generally the body of canon rules which starts with the core rulebook and goes to the "big 5" addons |
Gosh, maybe that's why I pointed out all three references to lifestyles then, huh? Then made a conditional statement that it depends on which rules are in use in any given game.
If you're not using the core rules (of any edition), then you're not playing the game at all. You're either freeforming or playing something else. The core rulebook is the core rulebook. By definition that makes them the baseline rules. Anything beyond that is optional, and there are even things in it which are expressly optional. Are the supplements completely official and in use in a game where those books are being used? Yes. But that doesn't make them any less optional.
I'm absolutely baffled by the mentally shown here. It's... it's just mindboggling.
It's an issue of terminology. I doubt anyone has a problem with the sentiment, you're just saying it in a way that makes things difficult to discuss. You're free to use them or not as you want to, but most games use the advanced rules in whole or in part and showing someone "how they're wrong" using the core rulebook alone is rather pointless. Because most people use a lot more than the core rulebook in their games.
Like the using the word "clip" to refer to a detachable magazine. It's not what you say, it's the words you use to say it.
Like the using the word "clip" to refer to a detachable magazine. It's not what you say, it's the words you use to say it.
Where did I once say someone was wrong for using SSG or R3. The only thing I did was point out that vehicles came with lifestyles in the core rules for them, and then said that R3 and SSG have other rules on the subject. But the core rules do, indeed, include vehicles.
I've always referred to supplements as optional rules in similar discussions. This one seems to be the only one where select few people have a problem with it.
I've always referred to supplements as optional rules in similar discussions. This one seems to be the only one where select few people have a problem with it.
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