He was a hero in the fact that he was the 'everyman', and displayed the great qualities and potential of the common man. He wasn't son of a god, or blessed by hades, he didn't eat kryptonite, or shit fireballs. He was smart, wise and strong. Yeah, he never wanted adventure or glory, he just wated to get back to his family, and thats precisely why his accomplishments are so notable.

Which is ironic you don't call him a hero, while Batman is so lauded. The whole reason both are so compelling is because they were a mortal, a mundane, a nobody against the backdrop of 'super'heroes, and still hold their own. Unlike Superman, Hercules, Achilles, they work for a living

You got me though, I like Ajax too. What, Helen wasn't a strong enough role for you?

Out of curiousity, have you ever played a superhero RPG? At least one of the better one's like with the Tri-Stat system?

If so, it's very possible to make a good, solid character with no actual superpowers who can keep up with characters who, logically, should outclass in particular areas. While they're spending their points on Superstrength, Flight, and Invulnerability (most of which suffering some kind of vulnerability in order to pay for the power), a character like Batman would have points spent on boosting his natural Attributes to the human maximums, buying tons of high-rated skills, and securing the resources and gadgets to help him keep an edge over those opponents possessing superhuman abilities.

In a direct fight where a superhuman opponent has the advantage of using his superhuman powers directly against such a "normal" character, that character is going to be toast. But a character like Batman uses all those resources, skills, and smarts he took instead to help him outthink, outpsyche, and outmaneuver his opponents while simultaneously allowing him to take advantage of any and all of their weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

I think that's the main charm of a character like Batman. Everyone likes an underdog, especially one that's clever as opposed to lucky. Which, again, is why I frown on the idea that Batman has a high Karma Pool, let alone an insane one like most people here suggest.

Yeah, but that's not valued as much as individual achievement in ancient Greece. He's just a different kind of hero than you're used to.

I have not yet played any Superhero RPG I'd consider "Good" and no, I've not tried Tri-Stat. Perhaps I should.

However your argument has nothing to do with the actual discussion and even less to do with logic. The fact that superpowers cost you build points is a matter of game balance, not game reality. That's why, all other things being equal, a Shadowrun Mage with have 5 fewer skills at 6 than a mundane. Game Balance, not because being magical makes you less able to learn things. Similarly Batman should have no superior skills to the Flash just because the Flash has powers, less in fact since the Flash can read an entire library during the time it takes Batman to read a single paragraph.

Unless you'd care to argue that when Peter Parker was bitten by a radioactive spider the spider sucked several years worth of memories away, of course.

And no, Batman isn't skilled. Batman pulls the most absurd nonsense out of his bat-hole, he doesn't use logic, science, or skills. Outside his own comic of course, which as I've said tends to be pretty good. And calling Batman an Underdog is a laugh and a half, or haven't you noticed that even on this boards people assume Batman can kill anything automatically?

You say this as if a Greek Goddess would under any circumstances pay attention to or give a flying f*ck at a rolling donut about what mortals might be doing at any given time (except in instances where theyre offering sacrifices or doing things to piss them off)

Her attitude in this case was probably "I feel like some nekkid swimtime. I pity the foo who chances upon me."

Oh, also, in regards to Item 1, this is pretty much the story I'm familiar with, and it portrays Athena in a *slightly* more favorable light than your version.

There are various different versions of #1; in some of them, Arachne is less than "quite humble." Every version I've ever heard of #2 has the goddess in question as Artemis, not Athena.

Well, save for the obvious fact that it does apply to game reality. As seen by characters like Batman and the Punisher.

It's quite logical in my opinion. Most people who have a ton of superpowers isn't going to spend the amount of effort or resourcefulness to hone their abilities to the pinnacle of their potential. Superman is a classic example; he goes out of his way not to use his powers at full strength, let alone hone them to perfection.

On the other hand, a character who knows he's going to have to compete against such superior beings, either through desire or circumstance, they're going to do whatever they can to get an edge. And, again, that's reflected in characters like Batman.

You obviously don't like him. That's cool. I don't like most comic characters in general, either. But that doesn't negate the potential for an unaugmented human to hold his own against supernatural opponents, even without relying on the wholly untangible and superstitious superpower like "luck" to help him do it.

Even in Shadowrun, a character with insane skill levels doesn't *need* Karma Pool. A shotgun blast from a character with a skill rating of 12 and a high Combat Pool *is* going to lay some serious hurting even on a high grade Mage with a force 12 Armor spell up and running, especially if said character has the stats and skills to get the jump on said magician.

Who said it did? 1) Peter Parker was a teenager when this occured, and hardly trained by the world's greatests assassins, spies, and scientists. 2) He didn't even start acting like a hero until well *after* the bite occurred, just like most accidental/created superheroes.

Most normal people don't stand a chance against even wussy heroes because they neither have the will nor the training to put up even a modicrum of worthwhile resistance. Characters like Batman and the Punisher, on the other hand, do... and it shows in their training and experience.

No, your argument was that somehow a character's skills and abilities can't go as high if they have superpowers, because it costs build points to get superpowers. As anybody who reads your post can see. Hence my comment on Spiderman losing years of experience from a spider-bite.

I've yet to see any non-augmented being who can pull off what you're describing (excepting that the laws of physics are cancelled and they are handed enourmous levels of luck). At best characters like that should be doing what Bruce did in Batman Beyond, stitting behind a computer feeding maps into everybody else's HUD. There is no possible way for somebody with Batman's strength to even stay in a fight with character's like Superman around, where the very wind and shockwave from his punches should hurl Batman through the air like a leaf.

No, that's what you decided to read, not what I said. I said that, just like it's reflected in the comics and the show, while a character like Superman is discovering his powers and how to keep them under control, a character like Batman is honing his natural abilities to perfection. In a roleplaying game that's reflected in Superman buying superpowers while Batman is buying insane skill levels and financial resources.

Feel free to point to a single line where I said anything remotely like that. By your logic, anyone who becomes a magician in Shadowrun "loses years of experience" just by Awakening as a teenager as oppose to those Priority/Build Points reflecting their training in magic and how to keep themselves from being amongst the statistics of those who go insane upon awakening.

Tell you what. The day you see a man in blue tights flying overhead towards a harbor where he then pauses to lift an oil tanker out of the water like it was nothing, I'll accept a comment as silly as this one. Until then, it's a comic book. *Everything* in it is staggering. But within the reality of the comic book universe, a character like Batman is just a superbly trained and experienced human. He has no superpowers, of which supernatural-levels of luck is often definied as one in and of itself (re: Longshot).

It's even more outrageously ridiculous when you're saying something like that in comparison to a setting like Shadowrun, where it's entirely possible to have totally unaugmented characters with a Strength score as high as 16 who can see in total darkness, can take an assault cannon blast at point blank to the head and not even get knocked on his ass, only to turn around and shoot a single pistol round into a car's engine block and cause it to explode.

And you know what? They wouldn't even need to use Karma Pool to do any of it themselves.

Since my last argument clearly isn't going anywhere, Rodent, let's try an entirely different track.

You mentioned a man with a shotguns 12 vs. a mage with 12 initiations. Let's replace them with Batman and another of the JLA members that he constantly overshadows in combat and see what happens.

We'll replace the shotguns 12 skill with Thrown weapons, and since Batman's just that good let's say he's got it at 15 and has the aptitude: Thrown Weapons edge. Further he's got every attribute at 10 so he's got a combat pool of 15, giving him 30 dice. He'll probably have 20 successes, which compared to an average Shadowrunner is quite super.

Now let's replace our mage with a JLA member. Not Superman or Green Lantern or any of the really top-power guys, but rather a mid-level guy, The Flash.

The Flash can travel at just under the Speed of Light, 300,000 kilometers a second. Multiplied by 1000 to turn it into meters a second, we can then multiply by 3 for 3 seconds in a combat turn, then divide by the human running multiplier of 3 to give us 300,000,000 as his quickness.

Let me say that again. His quickness is 300 million. Furthermore, due to super-speed he can perform 10 complex actions each initiative phase.

And of course that gives him a reaction of 150 million and a combat pool to match. So after you throw your 20 success boomerang attack the Flash pulls a million dice from his combat pool (although how you beat him to the punch is beyond me) and scores half a million successes to dodge. Suddenly Batman's "Super" powers don't seem so super anymore do they?

And we're not even calling upon the really powerful guys, Superman has that kind of statistic on every single attribute (Intelligence may depend on the version of Superman we're talking about), plus a million points of essence and immunity (Normal Weapons), plus inherent levitation, laser, and ice-ball spells. Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter are comparable although the Manhunter get's an extreme allergy to fire and spells of telepathy and phasing through matter. The Green Latern can cast any manipulation spell at any force with no drain as long as he has his ring.

So explain to me in some sort of reasonable terms how Batman can possible be useful on a Shadowrunning team of Guys like that? And keep in mind Batman doesn't just match these guys, he's useful in their fights and actively beats them up on a regular basis.

Nope. Against Superman in some elseworlds series, he used Kryptonite to weaken him first. Against the Green Lantern, he stole the ring. Against Wonder Woman, he took advantage of the Amazonian weakness by fusing her braces together with a gadget from his belt. Batman almost never fights in full view of any of his enemies (except maybe the Joker, who knows him TOO well), and when he does, he doesn't fight fair. Straight up? Maybe against the street rabble.

Sure, he'd win intimidation rolls (he won once against even Orion himself..with the help of batarangs of course) and perception rolls (spotted the manhunter even when disguised: "Nice disguise, J'onn but I can still see some of that Martian body language underneath..."). But he won't go straight up in a fight and would probably lose if he does. In fact, there was this scene in the training room between him and WW that proves the point (he lost).
B: "Throat lock. Hold until you pass out."
W: "Like I'd give you the luxury!"

..And lets not forget how he burns karma as if he had as much of it as his fortune.

Actually, before that, Batman already synthesized synthetic Kryptonite without his knowledge; in fact, he had a database of traits and weaknesses that he secretly collected. There was this issue of JLA where Ras' al Ghul stole Batman's JLA weaknesses data file and proceeded to wreck havoc with them...which resulted in Batman getting voted out for awhile.

Let's also not use an episode of the Animated Series as a good example of anything Batman OR Superman related.

He was almost kinda cool in the one Justice League episode featuring him. I still get a kick out of Green Lantern's line when he saw him riding a killer whale.

I liked Batman: TAS...

The superman series was just a joke. The guy can't seem to do anything without risking a hernia. Take a look at how hard superman strains to do anything. It's pathetic.

The first 2-3 seasons of the Batman series (when it ran on fox) were great. The atmosphere was good and it played out pretty nicely. Then it got...infected by idiocy.

Don

Neither. He's a munchkin lamer that would be dead years ago if it wasnt for the nifty regenerating shield. He has high physical stats but other than that he's a purely boring 12 year old's hero character.