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Well I was duped and convinced by a friend to let him join in our game. He said he knew the rules and how to make a character. So I let him go for it with a few extras to help him catch up to our already established players. Higher avail (12) and rating 8 and about 200k more to spend.

he comes up with this (not exact replica, but going off of memory)

Mongo The Troll Tank (Not like we needed another samurai, but he wanted it) cyber.gif
Some things are Alphaware, but he's within the essence range, and suffers a bit of overstress, which he said he would counter with RP and taking medicines ingame :

Body 11 (+1 trollskin +2 Cyberlegs +2 titanium Bone Lacing) for a total of 16
Quickness 3 (+3 Bioware) for a total of 6
Strength is 9 (+3 bioware) for a total of 12
Intelligence is 4 (+2 bioware) for a total of 6
Willpower of 6 (+1 from enhanced attribute, +1 from pain editor) for a total of 8
Charisma of 2 (no change)

Relavant skills
Polearm 5/7 (Stave)
Biotech 4
Shotgun 5

Other notable cyberware
Blood Filtration system 8
smartgun system
Internal Air tank

His armor is all enhanced with Nonconductive.
his staff is dikoted, and he uses a large riot shield
shotgun (I think it was 10S damage) is smartlinked.

Now Kill him.
or at least hurt him or I'm just going to have to refuse him his character. Which he actually did write up a page worth of background on.

I don't have my BBB infront of me, but don't trolls have a penalty to WIll?

Also, that Pain editor bonus to will, isn't that only for torture/interrogation not for resisting magic?
Page worth of background? That's a lot? question.gif

Anyway, the question is, why do you want to kill him? He doesn't look particularly scary... He's got a lot of stat dice, sure, but he's not particularly skilled or stealthy. If it's a bad fit for the team, you might want to tell him exactly why he's a bad fit so you don't end up with an equally useless second character.
Barring that, zippo + character sheet= fin
What sort of armor does he wear?
Any of the following should work: vehicle crashes, assault cannons, other trolls w/melee weapons, autofire bursts, APDS ammo, vehicle weapons, or falling from heights. That's off the top of my head.
I had a troll like this in a game I ran once.
I designed an NPC to deal with him. Lower stats, but much greater skill. 1 punch, down he went, the other troll in the party surrendered without a shot being fired.
Don't really see a problem with this guy from a char-gen point of view.

If you want to make his life miserable, add more social and sneaking components to your game.

If you want do him in use Decrease Attribute: Charisma. I think thats a poor way to deal with a meat shield but if you gotta do it....
Nice, didn't think about Decrease attribute.

There's always a dart round full of cutters, no armor too tough, no body attributes too high.
A Rodent of Unusual Size
Typical mage with Sorcery 6, Spell Pool 6, and Manabolt 6.

Mage casts it at Serious and rolls 12d6 (TN 8): 3 8 1 10 2 3 2 2 3 19 2 2
Mongo rolls Willpower (TN 6): 5 2 15 2 2 3 5 1

Mongo just took a Deadly Physical Wound. With not so much as a simple Trauma Damper, he's down and unable to get even one last parting shot in. And with an whopping initiative of 5+1D6 (you left out the -1 to Intelligence an activated Pain Editor suffers), he's going last anyway.

Pretty lame character all around.
What's up with the air tank? That's not something one would think the average troll tank would go for, since they're definitely going to take some hits.
So you can't suffocate him easily I'd imagine
But is that really worth the chance of an explosion? Maybe it's just me; I'm very leery of taking gear that might somehow harm the user during normal operation (being shot at falls into the category, obviously).

edit: can't spell...
They still gotta get a bullet past the meat to puncture the darned thing.
Killing him off is easy, and will just encourage him to build a tougher, faster troll with even less skills.

Point out that with such low charisma and no etiquette, anything with an availability of 8 or higher is completely off-limits to his character (pg 85, Defaulting - Anything with a TN of 8 or higher BEFORE defaulting modifier is applied, a character cannot default from that skill.

So cool weapons, fancy ammo, special armor, vehicles etc., are all out of the question. And if he asks someone else to get it, refuse.... the fixer/dealer etc knows its not for the character doing the buying since its troll-sized.

And the price of anything he wants, well he can be negotiated into paying MORE for everything, every time.

Forget sneaking in and out of anyplace without stealth. This Troll sticks out like a sore thumb.

This character is an all-round useless bullet-catcher.

Have him rethink the character, and rule out cultured bioware. Not avail at Chargen, and cost 4-8X more after (Cultured x Street Index). It's one thing to give a character "extras" to catch up with an experienced party, quite another to give him huge extras that are financially unavailable to the rest of the party.
would he be susceptible to too much cyber or bio?

I don't have my books seeing as how i'm at work.

But i would think a seizure or something like that would be a real downer during combat.
Capt. Dave
Okay, he'd be real valuable in combat. Cool.
Now discuss with him the disadvantages of his character, maybe inform him that this character isn't what the team needs.

Work with him to create a balanced character that is still good in combat. Help the guy out. As the charcacter stands, he's hosed in social situations (esp. if he goes near a cyberscanner). Balance the game before you start, not during.
Letting this character in and then killing him intentionally the first run isn't fair;
If you don't like/need/want a character like this, tell the guy so beforehand.
One of my players created a Troll Tank ex-Urban Brawl player that we pitted against my Dual Gun Adept (Ambidexterity: 8 edge to fire with two guns) to test out. One turn. Four bullets bounced off him, then he runs up and literally bashes the adepts head in with a mace.

So I created a starting character solely to combat this tank. BeCKS 425 Karma, Adept, Improved Reflexes: 3, Improved Ability (Edged Weapons): 6, Edged Weapons: 6, Weapon Focus (katana): 6 (bonded with karma), then as many social-related flaws as I could cram into him. Maxed Physical Attributes & Intelligence (for combat pool). 18 dice for melee combat with a base damage of 13S (I think) before combat pool. Haven't figured out if this approach will work. If not, I'm going for an LMG Adept...

As far as the game goes, everyone else is right. Don't just kill the character because you don't like it. How did I decide to balance the game so my Tank doesn't just run over everyone? In the game, I'm using the resource-based enemies rules from the Companion. His enemies? Mafia Capo who lost a lot on his last Urban Brawl game and wants revenge and a Combat Mage player he wounded, causing her to lose some of her magic. Tank he may be, but he's screwed in social situations (which the Mafia guy can threaten him with) and against magic (which the mage can threaten him with). Will this guarantee death for the character? No, but it exploits the weaknesses of the character in order to create a stronger story by giving the character challenges to overcome.

And if that crap gets boring, there's always the -8 essence cyberzombie troll for him to try to smash...

The Abstruse One
Drop the improved reflexes, add counter strike at 6 and goad the troll into attacking without the gun. 24 dice...
Ok addressing a few things down the line

1 page of backstory compared to the flimsy stuff my other players made up when they first started, is alot.

Armor I believe is Armored Jacket form fitting, the shield, forearm guards, victory helmet, and If I remember right he had some armor value on the legs too.
question of etiquette =
He's got ettiquete (mercenary) 2 (4)
Troll stealth = Stealth is 3, so average

and for decrease attribute that's based on 10 - Essence as the target number, and I think it's resisted by body.

and for the mage manabolting him, there's always some spell defence available from the group's mage. Unless he's all alone.

It looked like a half decent all around combat shadowrunner.

The team really doesn't need another runner at all, so he couldn't fill a specific 'need'. Mage is also the Face, the Rigger is the Decker too, and the Sams are Speedy, and the other is sneaky. They don't have a heavy weapons guy, so I guess this could be him if he trades out shotgun for heavy weapons instead

I don't know. I'd feel bad just turning him down and sending him away, but thinking up a challenge that would be fun for this combat sam would be hell for almost anyone else.

Thanks for the responses so far. That list of alternate ways to hurt him the vehical crashes and falling damage, I didn't think of that. And the cutter dart might be usefull for heavy corp runs. The assault cannons or mounted weapons could be ok, but they would shred the other slightly less tough sams.
This character is an all-round useless bullet-catcher.

Now, now there is plenty a magician character who would love a bullet catcher in the group.

Personally, if he put enough effort into the character to do a page of background then I’d say go for it. Just tell him straight out that his character is rather one note and he might be spending a lot of time reading Shadowland print-outs while the other characters are engaging in stealth or social scenarios. If he still wants the character let him. Maybe he wants to play a fun-loving, jolly socially inept troll. If you're really lucky he might be playing the troll as comic relief. ( Did this guy recently watch Shrek 2? )

He's actually not that bad. He doesn't have any reaction enhancement cyberware and his weapons aren't that bad. I'd say he's a melee specialist with a staff. ( Does dikoting a staff actually worth it? I think only edged weapons get the damage level boost )

A few thoughts though
Doesn't a pair a cyberlegs only add +1 to body?
Doesn't cyberlegs interfere with the bone lacing? ( reduce its effectiveness )
Doesn't the pain editor lower intelligence at the same time it raises willpower?
Hell, I got three.

1: Take Rodent's mage idea. To make it even more effective, make the mage use Stunbolt - sure, it's 'only stun', but the reduced drain allows that mage to start pulling out manabolts and balls to take on the rest of the team.

2: Mage. Extended range 'Enhance Aim' spell, force 6, either quickened or in a spell lock. You decide the number of successes. Mage uses a long-range rifle - sniper or otherwise - with a scope. OR... An LMG and has vision mag cyberware. Troll is attacked from extreme range, called shot to the head to bypass armor. Enhance aim counters most of those penalties, and the target number is automatically lessened by the Enhance Aim spell. The troll will probably lose on the reaction test, if the mage has invested in Enhance Reaction even a little. Armor is bypassed, and the troll has to roll well not to die.
Ways to make this nastier:
-The bigger the sniper rifle or machine gun, the nastier the effect.
-Load armor-piercing rounds and don't call the shot.
-Load EX Explosive and *do* call the shot.
-Have the mage be using increased initative spells, just in case the troll isn't surprised.

3: Grenades set to impact detonation (IPE Offensive or White Phosphorous preferred) or remote-detonation explosives in confined spaces. The chunky salsa rules will make toast out of anyone quickly. White Phosphorous is suggested due to the near-impossibility of resisting the slow burning-to-death effect, if they can't immediately remove themselves from the area of effect.
remember, defeat is not about getting killed, it's about getting caught.

He sounds like a pretty reasonable troll to me. I would say snipers, woudl give him trouble, so would plain old entrapment.

in a stand up firefight, his mere presence is likely to mean that backup is called much sooner, and that it will be heavier duty response. he could be plinked down by any group that can stay out of range.

-Mike R.
That is absolutely nothing. Im sory to say it but the character im playing in one of the welcome to the shadows threads is alot more munchkin than that(They said they wanted a bullet net heavy weapons guy so I made one). Compared to my tabletop groups munchkin hes a pretty good character(thats not saying much though because our PC munchkin creates truely horrible characters). I dont see any problems with this character. If you want to really challange him heres what you do.

Put him in a long narrow enviorment with only 2 exits 1 in front and 1 behind like a long hallway ravine ditch ect. Now make some meter high mounds or something like that for cover(I think that should be enough for the rest of the team to hide behind while still leaving him open). Now comes the really nasty part have dwarves hide behind the mounds and pop up and shoot at him then take cover again. Be sure to leave enough room between him and the opposition so that no one on the team can cover the distance in one combat turn. If your feeling really mean give them a smartlink and be sure to make several of them and give a have a few in the back keep constant held actions just in case one of the other sams tries to run at them. And keep the rigger occupied during this time with another rigger or something.

Heres how it should play out.
The teams start getting shot at and the other runners take cover. Now the troll sam will either decide to stand up and fight or try to take cover and realize that the cover isnt big enough for him to hide behind so he has to stand up and fight anyway. The little guys will pop up and shoot him then take cover again leaving him helpless and if he tries to run for them have them throw grenades or something. After a few combat rounds in this enviorment hill will either run or die.
What's the problem?

Scary1: He's big even for a troll - this will attract attention.
Scary2: He wears armor, a helmet, fore-arm guards, a shield, and carries around a polearm - this will attract even more attention.

Now combine the two: Scary1 x Scary2 = Really Darn Scary.

He'll get picked up by Lone Star or Security about a minute after anybody sees him. A man who is obviously looking for trouble will find it - in the form of cops. Lots of cops.

(Waitaminute: A polearm and a shield?)

He'll make a great 1-time distraction at the other end of the compound....
QUOTE (ShadowGhost)
rule out cultured bioware

That's just silly. Cultured is available to anyone at chargen; why should he be different?

Actually, it's not.
Only basic is.
The White Dwarf
Good god cant you GMs think for yourselves.

Decrease Charisma was said, and you didnt even look it up. Go read it.

Any magician anything cast at D will do it simply because the mages get enough dice to win, again as said above.

Or failing magic, you can always default to the gun of doom:
Franchi w/ SL-2, loaded with Capsule rounds, loaded with DMSO and Atropine

1) fire a burst at troll, twice
2) watch troll resists 11D stun from gunshot, with -1 dodge
3) laugh maniacally
4) watch troll try to resist a 6-dose of atropine, which comes out to 4D deadly overdamage even with his cyber
5) the math, with 11 body he will get 5 successes taking a serious, and the tn mods from the chemical (which arent a result of pain per se)

Not enough you say?
... well theres the glorious step 6) add additional goons shooting him with this. each one will fire in a single initiative pass and thus before the speed of the atropine. thus it will all add up to one dosage. another burst of 6 does 1 box of damage and makes the dmg code 10D-over. 3 bursts is 2 boxes + 16D-over. etc.

If using atropine is too deadly, use gammascopolamine with the excuse that the guards were using non-leathal means to capture intruders for interrogation (hey this drugs a truth serum too how bout that). They just panicd and OD'd the troll.

Just one of onehundredthousandmillionbilliontrilliongooglplexgigawatt ways to kill a troll...
Actually, it is. There's a note in the FAQ suggesting it be disallowed, but by canon it's perfectly available.

Wierd. I had always played it as per GM approval
It's a pretty common houserule, though I'm not entirely certain why. Now that the mnemonic enhancement has been nerfed, there really isn't anything that gamebreaking available…

A Rodent of Unusual Size
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 27 2004, 02:58 PM)
Actually, it is. There's a note in the FAQ suggesting it be disallowed, but by canon it's perfectly available.

Apparently that's changed in the reprint of M&M. It is really stupid though. They *really* should have distinguished between Neural Bioware and Cultured Bioware. As it stands, a Sleep Regulator is illegal while Enhanced Articulation is perfectly acceptable. Where's the game balance there? smile.gif
Eyeless Blond
You want to kill this guy? Drown him. Cyberlegs and titanium bone lacing don't float very well, nor does much of the gear he's likely carrying. He's also got problems against diseases, toxins, and the like; I'd expect him to get sick an awful lot. Or, hell, just send a dragon or orbital cow after him. You're the GM; killing your players is easy, 'cause you're basically God.

You want to, "show him the error of his ways," instead?Well, with a Charisma of 2, and likely a low Ettiquite score, his huge amounts of bioware and cyber are going to make him stick out like a wolf among chickens. Lone Star will have a helicopter and three squad cars following this guy around any time he strays out of the Barrens, and it's not likely he'd ever be allowed to stay anywhere else for long. SR is a much more social game than, say, D&D; if you can't fit in with the crowd you're in much more trouble than if you have a Body of 1.

Mind posting the rest of this guy's character? Including just what you think are "relevant skills" likely isn't enough; everything is relevant sometimes. Also, what chargen system did this person use? I count this characer has spent 31 points on attributes, which is illegal under Points and impossible under Priority. Is that right? And with the loadout that it seems he has, he's got only 21-23 points left for skills, yes?
Internal air tank as discussed before. If he's not too far out to sea, he could walk to shore. The blood filtration is for the toxins problem, I guess. I still wonder if the air tank is really such a great idea for anything other than this, though.
Eyeless Blond
Then have open-ocean battles. This guy's pretty well neutered on the ocean anyway; his attacks work best close-in in melee, not ship-to-ship. And if he falls overboard, well, he's defaulting to Bod--at ar *really* high TN--to keep afloat.
If I understand the question, it's not that you want to be kill the troll, but you just want to know that the troll is not invincible. I think most of the people here would agree that he's still vulnerable to a lot of situations: Anything with very high power levels (burst or automatic fire, called shots, grenades, drones, falling, crashes, drugs) or that tests against willpower (spirit powers, spells) will take him down almost as easily as anyone else.

I would say that he's set up as a 'one-hit wonder', and the only situation they can take him to would be an unambiguous fight. Walking in with a shiny new dikoted staff and a riot shield (can you use a shield and a two handed weapon simultaneously?) and being an enormous troll will ensure that people start shooting at him first, giving everyone else a chance to duck behind cover. I don't think he'll last any longer than anyone else in the ensuing combat.

However, if the goal is a normal stealthy shadowrun, he's going to get everyone else caught.
The troll will likely be wielding the staff one handed.
A Rodent of Unusual Size
Ah, cool, then he'll definitely be having his ass handed to him in melee combat. A +2 target number penalty is devestating.
Luke Hardison
QUOTE (A Rodent of Unusual Size @ May 27 2004, 07:36 PM)
Ah, cool, then he'll definitely be having his ass handed to him in melee combat.  A +2 target number penalty is devestating.

Just a +1, actually. He's a troll.

CC, p. 98.

Edit: Which is still debilitating in melee, quite a bit.
Eyeless Blond
Yes, but it's more than counteracted with a net Reach of 3. smile.gif

Like I said, the real way to "get" this guy is through Ettiquite and social situations. It's a fraggin Troll, walking around overloaded with ovbious (and heavy) cyberware and bioware, carrying a riot shield, a stave, and a shotgun! He'll be setting off police scanners from *orbit*. nyahnyah.gif
Lone Star: "Excuse me, sir? Do you have a permit for those?"
Troll's player: "Why do the cops keep showing up and questioning me?"
GM: "No idea. Everyone make me a perception roll. Okay, Mr. Elf, you see another human stop with his eyes bulging out. He sidles across the street and hits the PanicButton."
Elf's player: "Can I hear what he's saying?"
GM: "Something about a troll. He appears to have wet himself."
Actually alot of the suggestions i have seen here for challanging this character semm pretty bad. Ive seen alot of stuff like just shoot him with a rocket launcher or have 5 guys go full auto with smartlinks and assault rifles on him and hey heres an idea put him against a cyberzombie!!!! While these are all good ways to kill the troll theirs something you all have to remember THE REST OF THE TEAM WILL GET SLAUGHTERED!!!!! Hes wanting a way to challange this character without killing the rest of the team. While their is no easy answer the only thing I can say is alot of planning. Figure out a way to get him alone against one of the above and then have a reason for this badass bad guy to go away without killing everyone else. My earlier suggestion would work well if the other PCs are smart enough to stay down.
Guys, I think his problem isn't so much that he has trouble hitting the troll, but that anything he uses to challenge the troll will out-and-out destroy the rest of the group.

But that doesn't have to be the case. He is a massive troll, carrying heavy weapons. He should take the brunt of the opposition's firepower, simply because they see him as the greater threat. So all you need to do is add some extra goons, and have them concentrate on the troll. And I don't mean try to take him out - if he can soak the bullets, let him. It's what his character was designed for. Challenge him, by all means, but there's a difference between challenging a character and vindictively targetting a character. Let him enjoy watching that security guard's eyes widen as he takes a pistol shot to the chest and just grins. Have people decide on discretion as the better part of valor when they see a half-ton troll lumbering towards them. Challenge him, but also let him enjoy being good at what he has chosen to be good at.

He is a tough character, and despite some people's compaints he is actually fairly well-rounded - Etiquette: 2/4 and Stealth: 3 should at least let him function outside of combat situations. He is far from invincible, though. Things like heavy weapons or full-auto fire can ruin his day. Despite all of that armor, none of it is hardened; with a bad enough roll, he could get wounded from a Streetline Special. He is limited in the places where he can carry a lot of that gear. Most moderately-cybered opponents will be going before him. While he may be tough in melee, it is an opposed dice contest. Any adept with Close Combat and Improved Ability in any melee skill could own him. He could have made a far more unbalanced character.
A Rodent of Unusual Size
I hardly consider a force 6 Manabolt to be broken or even inappropriate. It's standard issue for many mages, and it's going to easily take down a poorly built character like that.
never said a manabolt was broken or inappropriate.
A Rodent of Unusual Size
It was in reference to:
QUOTE (Glyph)
Guys, I think his problem isn't so much that he has trouble hitting the troll, but that anything he uses to challenge the troll will out-and-out destroy the rest of the group.
It's worth pointing out that the low-cyber human has a signature of 6. Our friend the troll has a signature of 4 or possibly less (if he got a suprathyroid). Drones often mount LMGs or better... say hello to target #1.
Well, that did seem to be his main problem. I don't really count magic as one of those hard-to-balance factors, since it is generally effective against mundanes across the board.

But honestly, I don't think being unable to soak a Force: 6 manabolt is an indication of a "poorly built" character. I mean, for crying out loud, he has a Willpower of 8!
A Rodent of Unusual Size
But not the social clout to win over the friendship of the team's mage.
Oh come on. A (relatively) low Charisma and Etiquette cut down on some of his options, but I don't think the team mage is going to not protect him with Spell Defense for not being a face.
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