I created SotSW for the express reason of having a large enough playerbase to eliminate the "team" dynamic, though I haven't really accomplished that yet (it's coming, though, I think). That being said, I do recognize that teams are a necessity of the RPG group; I just object to the notion that most runners are going to be part of a team.

~J

As I see it, shadowrunning teams would form for two main reasons.

First, in order to generate additional nuyen: although there are a people out there who can do everything (ala James Bond), most runners are specialized in one area. Teams are necessary to cover all of the bases and to all runners access to the more lucrative (and complicated) work.

Second, the trust issue previously raised.

However, I think that most teams would be small for the same reasons. A johnson does not care how many people are on a team; he will be willing to pay the same amoun to get a job done if there are two or twenty runners.

I do not think that most runner, particularly the starting ones, would be working for the megas, even in a place like Seattle. They want to deal with skilled professionals. In the game I am starting, the players can forget about dealing with the AAAs for at least a couple of months gametime - long enough for their fixer(s) to be willing to back them to the big-time Johnsons.

Wow, leave the forum for three days...

One thing that always got me is why it's usually mega-corps which hire runners. I think Xirces had a great point on the first page, you hire in-house skills that you're going to need regularly, and contract out for anything else. Renraku will regularly need a strike team to go and do such and such, so they will invest in having their in-house team. The only time they would hire shadowrunners are 1) If the team is likely to have a high casualty rate, or 2) ( The revenue lost X the chance of being found ) > Extra cost for contracting out in a case that requires deniability.

Seems to me, you're more likely to get a lot of jobs from mid-level companies, Seattle bank of Mom & Pop, who can afford to pay for a pair of rent-a-cops by the door every day, but really doesn't have the money to pay for a trained weapons specialist, and the need arises.

I do like the earlier point that it's oftentimes individuals in corps who hire out teams to protect their jobs, not the corporation itself.

It certainly makes sense you'd have small teams, 'critical pieces' you'd have together. They're simply going to be more effective, and since most runs are worthless unless they're successful, the success rate will win them more clients. Granted, a 12 person team may not get a whole lotta biz because they're so pricey, but a 4 person group which has all the bases covered could easily push individuals largely out of the job, since random individuals grouped together are simply not going to be as effective/get a bad rep because sometimes they're grouped in an incompatible group.

Had one GM runa game where one PC was hired 20K to get the job done, that PC sub contracted the other needs out to the rest of us, for varying fees, 1 to 2K each, that one player ended up making like 10k for the run because none of us thought to negotiate.

As often as not, I see Johnsons working through a fixer in much the same manner as that. The Johnson needs something done and finds a fixer who can deliver. He pays the fixer x nuyen. That fixer then puts together a team and offers them each y nuyen to do the job. Whatever the difference between x and all of the ys is is the fixer's cut.

Certainly makes more sense than some ways of doing it

Not to mention, how does a Shadow runner get a Johnson as a contact?

It's a one way relationship and probably by referral or word of mouth.

Unless, of course, the Corp Johnson regularly maintains a street presence to keep an eye out for talent.

Or he gets names from a street level fixer.

-Siege

But, how exactly does a runner maintain that contact? I don't see a suit chumming it up of a few rounds of synth-beer at the local watering hole witht he guy he's been paying to kill other execs. Nor do I see a runner offering to fix that pesky jam in the suit's pistol as a favor for a friend. There just seems to be few methods for a runner to maintain a Mr. J contact for any length of time.

It depends on where the safety is important at. If the Johnson gives the fixer the job, to fill as he sees fit, then it is much harder for the Johnson to be tied to the runners. He's never met them or likely been anywhere near them in any meaningful kind of way. If the Johnson has the fixer round up runners, then there is a more direct tie. The runners even know what the Johnson looks like.

Runners are scum. Let the fixer deal with them.

[edit] From a legal standpoint, as well, it's easier to wriggle out of a connection when it's one fixer saying that you payed him to do it than if there are a dozen shadowrunners all pointing fingers at you from seperate "questioning" rooms. [/edit]

That's assuming the Johnson hasn't taken measures to make sure they never reach those rooms. scum get shot every day, just another pitiful statistic staining the sidewalk

Well, they're generally in the hands of the target of the run at that point Not much the Johnson can do at that point without throwing up even bigger red arrows.

He can activate that security measure he had installed when that sam wanted new wires.

But still more trouble than it's worth. It's easier to kill the fixer, who is not already in enemy/ law enforcement hands, than the runners, who are.

Besides, any runner who'd willingly go nder a Johnson's knife deserves to die.

Hey, I just call 'em as I see 'em.

A Johnson simply means the person who needs a job done from the shadowrunners. It's so vast, and can mean so many totally different types of people, that making generalisation (sp?) on how a Johnson hires a team is pointless. All mentionned methods are going to happen, just depends on the Johnson.

well, in theory, the person hiring is the Johnson, just like the guy hiring the hooker is the John. When they say a Mr. Johnson contact, it usually means the profesional corp/government employee who specializes in handling criminal contractors for the organization.
These are quite often former in-house special operatives.

True, it certainly depends on the needs of the Johnson, the fixer, and the runners, and will vary regularly, but it stands to reason that there would be a de facto default course of action of sorts. In my opinion, that would be the fixer arranging meets and setting up deals, after which his or her involvement ends, but that is by no means an absolute.

I guess a big part of it is rep, too. I can see Johnsons meeting with teams directly if they have a rep he can trust. At a certain point, it's only to be expected. However, the bottom end of the megacorp food chain is probably another animal entirely. If the Johnson can't be relatively sure that one of the team members won't walk straight to the target of the run and sell him out, then I'd say more screens between the Johnson and runner are warranted.

Given the inherent anonymousness of a "Johnson", I'd say that a Runner couldn't take a Johnson as a contact -- a Fixer, sure.

But a Fixer has to maintain a certain amount of recognition in order to do business.

-Siege

At some level, there are probably some Johnsons who are essentially fixers who specialize exclusively in hooking up jobs and Runners.

~J

A fixer may choose to introduce a johnson and a shadowrunner group rather than keep them separate. He then gets paid a finder's fee by the johnson and leaves the johnson to negotiate the runner's payment. This has a number of advantages...

1) The johnson may be required to provide the runner's with some level of inside help that the fixer can't. Secret passcodes. etc.

2) The fixer may want the denialability that not knowing what the johnson and runners are up to provides.

3) His involvement in the price negotiations is minimal.

Don't forget that Johnsons need to tell the team what they're doing. You'd have to really trust a fixer to give them that info. You could do it blind-- just a reward posted on Shadowland-- but the fixer would have to trust the source in order to make sure he'd get paid.

So, booklord's sequence makes a lot of sense. Everyone gets what they want-- deniability and money.

If a Johnson is willing to trust a bunch of total strangers that someone he trusted enough to get him in touch with those strangers put together, I somehow doubt if he'd have the same problem trusting the fixer to begin with.

It's just another one of the little things about the game that I'm not very keen on. It may be well established and assumptions dictate that its acceptable, but it's just not very believable to me despite that. 'Course the same goes towards a lot of the weirdness that's accepted in the game, such as Dunkelzahn's blatant hit contract against a total stranger (while simultaneously trivializing it to the point of making it into a game, not to mention stripping them of their SIN). They even tried to rationzalize it in SotSW, but it wasn't even remotely convincing...

...but I'm digressing. I have no problem with a fixer (a term that covers way too much in the game to begin with) being the man a client hires to get a job done, and then that fixer doing the work to see it done. A megacorporation getting as close to the criminal element as a Johnson does is just public relations suicide if it backfires just once, and considering how many Shadowruns alledgedly occur at every hour of every day, that liability is stupefyingly high. Especially if you consider how common backstabbing Johnsons apparently are, which only provokes runners into seeking revenge.

But it's a fun game despite all of that, so it's relatively easy to overlook for the sake of playing a game. I just have trouble accepting anyone's attempts to rationalize that its either logical or remotely believable...

I think you have the wrong people. As far as I can remember, we at SotSW have never tried to rationalize Dunkie's will

~J

Stupid S being so close to the D... I meant DotSW (Dragons of the Sixth World).

One point that no one's brought up that I think is worth considering: Runs are not always one megacorp hitting another megacorp. If you're playing internal power games, there could quite easily be very good reasons not to use internal assets for it.

If you wanted complete and total deniability, without offing the runners since that's just not really cost-effective for the top flight ones, why not do like in Paycheck and delete their memories?

Magic, drugs, PAB's or best of all Laes would all probably work. Use two teams and keep them seperate- one that does the reasearch and planning and the others that do the actual job. The people going in are handed the mission briefing, prepare and do the job in say twenty four hours. Then straight back home, couple hits of Laes and get rid of the memories. Of course this is taking it to the extreme of deniability.

Uh, I imagine because runners would not be willing to do that. I don't trust the Johnson, and I sure as hell don't trust this syringe he gave me. No way am I going to willingly subject myself to memory deletion. And if the Johnson decides to try it with force, he'll either die or never get anyone willing to work with him again. Only place memory deletion could work is with inhouse people, and it's a major hit to morale. Bad idea all around.

I have to totally agree with artheusa on this one.

Oh I know for the most part it's completely impractible. I was just laying it out as the most extreme option.

It's probably more cost effective just to kill them at that point Who cares about a few dead runners? I mean, besides the runners themselves?

Makes me reconsider the Laes immunity idea...

The other runners who might later potentially take jobs from the employer.

~J

Who would willingly delete their memories? People who sign up for that as part of their contract.

Offer a few starving squatters a chance to get out of the slums, make absurd amounts of money and have a chance to muster out with some serious perks and you'd be amazed at how many would write off parts of their memory.

-Siege

Bunraku parlors do it. Why wouldn't a desperate runner?

~J

I'm certain some desperate and nearsighted runners would. But once you've got him in a position to remove his memory, what's to stop you from simply not paying him and telling him that he just wasn't what you were looking for when he wakes up? Yes, those who do not see past the inherent dangers will go for it and employers who have no interest in maintaining street cred might consider it for high risk stuff, but it's absurdly unprofessional and not like to be common.

But how is erasing memories any better?

I can agree that for a holy mother load of cash, you might get some runners to do it. But for less cash, you could hire the runners in such a way that their demise couldn't be traced back to you (any more so than their memories could be recovered, at least).

That said, it might be a cool game starter to have the PCs just waking up after having their memories erased... only to discover that the target of the run is now after them.

People able to think on their feet, with x amount of training and a purchased loyalty to the Company? Two years, substantial pay increase and perks as denoted in an Employee's contract might be considered a small price to pay for surrendering operational knowledge of a Mega-Corp's inner workings.

Granted, all of that could be achieved with p-fix BTLs and conditioning, but there is something to be said for hungry self-motivation.

I grant you, some 95% of runners would never agree to such dangerous terms for obvious reasons.

However, desperate runners (as mentioned previously) or desperate, starving refugees who would sell their souls for a chance not to die sprawled in the gutter with other sewer rats might find it a reasonably attractive proposition.

Employee Departure Clause: "Any Employee upon tendering resignation will be required to submit to a mustering out process. This process will include altering the Employee's memory regarding key elements of proprietary Company information including but not limited to access codes, policy and procedures, details of classified and confidential assignments and related materials. Failure to submit will result in immediate contract termination."

I always thought the Employee Departure Clause in this instance was a bullet fired into the pillow covering the company man's face in the middle of the night.

Natch. Touche.