Thank you finally.


No, I missed that FFBA can be worn stand-alone, which actually does nothing mechanically to what I was saying except negate the need for a shirt. I was not confused on the use of PPP, I was showing how you can in fact wear two helmets at once - the PPP one and a normal one.


That's what makes FFBA so interesting, because, like you mentioned above, it does not state you cannot wear it with itself.


I can imagine it can become so, and that's not part of the discussion anyways.


So do you pay multiple prices at multiple availabilities if you want to buy a car modded a certain way, or do you just pay with one price and one availability? This is the same thing. You're not buying an arm, then adding armor to it. You are buying an arm that has had armor added to it already.

It doesn't need to mention that, you can only ever wear one set of any armor.
I could just as well claim that it doesnt say anywhere in the rules that i need hands to wield weapons, so i can wield simultaniusly 12 miniguns.

Neraph...

I honestly do not think that you and I will agree on this subject... I am following from a bit of Common Sense and you seem to be trying to argue from a RAW perspective... though I can admire arguing from RAW (Lord knows that I do it often enough), you still need a bit of common sense applied to avoid the insanity of unlimited stacking that you seem to be arguing for... It may not come out and Explicitly say that you cannot stack in an unlimited fashion, but common sense implies that that is an untenable argument.

Anyways, as always, I enjoy our discussions...

Keep the Faith

I'm goign to make one point about the max armor and twinked out custom limb suites. Suites are mass made for wide comsuption. So its un-likey one for sucha spesici role would be made. If it was then you would have a hell of alot of people using such suites and well SR4 would be a purely social game as comabt is pointless if your not armored to the teeth they your fucked and if you are you fighting some one who is too so you'll fight till sleep dep kills you.

More like if you fight, the side with better combat mage wins.
So not much different from how it is now

i'd just like to get a bit of clarification here...

which part of layering armor providing increased protection is not common sense, exactly?

because it seems to me that if i'm hiding behind a wall consisting of two brick walls back to back, and you're hiding behind a wall consisting of only one layer of bricks, it would require more effort to break through my double wall than it would take to break through your single wall.

armor stacking actually makes all kinds of sense, including common sense.

now, i might see the point if you were to argue that only one suit should benefit from the 1/2 encumbrance rule, because really that also makes all kinds of sense, (one shirt gives 0 encumbrance, but if i was to put on 10 or 20 i would definitely be feeling encumbered) and actually is just slightly less effective than the custom-fitted body armor optional rule.

but arguing against the armor stacking from the basis of common sense, well... really, *my* common sense is telling me that pretty much every form of armor that could plausibly be worn at the same time (i'm not sure about wearing a long coat with an armored jacket, but a vest, jacket, and jumpsuit sounds pretty reasonable for example) would stack as far as armor bonus is concerned. (though of course, i could also see it being more encumbering)

I argue from teh logical conclusion that you can only wear a single suit o armor for full Encumberance, and the Second set (which is FFBA) for partial encumbrance... I would NEVER allow more than a Single suit of FFBA to be worn, as that is just common sense... Your comparison of the walls is a little off... as there are no limit to the number of walls that I may place between myself and an attacker with a pistol... However, You can only wear so much armor, and some armor jsut does not allow you to wear multiple incarnations... FFBA is an option for wearing under other, bulkier armor... However, it is not something that, by commmon sense, you should be allowed to wear multiple incarnations of...

Compare that to a Condom, if you will... One works as designed, two together cause friction problewms and tends to make the use of such a strategy a large failure as they BOTH fail due to design constraints...

Just Sayin'

keep the Faith

I definately think my Connection 1/Loyalty 6 magical group contact would not have a problem casting spells on/for me. Consider this:



So yeah, they'll cast spells for me and do it with a smile.

Funny that you have a Connection 1 Magical group as a contact as Magical groups start at minimum of Connection 9 according to Group connection rating modifier table.
And the one you talked about earlier is minimum Connection 12.

I don't even let people get contacts that loyal anyway.

I think the Conections 1 is the conections rating without the modifiers for size, matrix resources, magic resources, etc.

Exactly. Then stack on 100-1,000 members and vast magical resources and I think it's a 16 total - within range of a chargen character.

A 100-1,000 member group with vast magical resources, and no area of influence or matrix presence, with loyalty 6 and connections 1 would be 17 points. How a group that large can have that little influence/matrix presence is beyond me however.

Dey don't trust ze internetz???

Curious, what kind of maximums have you guys come up with *without* using cyberarms/torsos and various magical application to those limbs?

Another question regarding the possessing the cyberlimbs and cyberware suite; How can you get it all installed as one piece, then get six different spirits possessing it? Not to mention that all cyberware consumes essence making all a part of you, and thus only one object.



Without initiation:
Mystic Armor 5
Orthoskin 3
FFBA 6/2
Swat armor w/ helmet and gel packs 15/13
Full PPP system 2/6

31/29 total with 20/20 for determining encumbrance.

Edit: Also note, you can get 29/31 by swapping the FFBA and Swat for heavy military armor.

i think that neraph was right about it being 16 points.
But i agree that contact is beyand absurd and i think most GM:s would never allow it.
Concidering that the Illuminates of the New Dawn are the biggest magical group in the world and they only have 700 mage members and they also have lots of political pull, making their connection rating a lot higher.

Loyalty 6 = 6 point
Connections 1 = 1 point
100-1000 members = +4 points
Vast magical resources = +6
Total = 17

Holy hell, i fail math forever.
i counted 12+6 and somehow got 16

You're right - it's absurd that people are allowed to have things made completely following the rules. How dare I.


I'm so sorry for getting the total 1 point higher from the top of my head, after not looking at the book for a few months. Make it most magical instead of vast magical and give them some matrix presence, since some seem to find the lack of matrix on mages is wierd. Or increase their size, thereby increasing the mages present as well.


Well, Milspec specifically states it cannot be stacked with any other armor, so you can't stack PPP with Milspec.

However you want, it can be in any combination or order you like. You could have all the limbs possessed then installed or some other way. I think your thinking of some other game system that states it is all one object. Even if (for the sake of argument) it was one object..so? Nothing in the rules specifically cares

Edit: You cannot combine Milspec Armor of any variety with Any Other Worn Armor at all, because the rules for MilSpec say so. Your Stuck with armor of the magical sort and technically Cyber/Bioware for the additions.

HA



Cast the Armor spell at force (well say 6)

You have 6/6 armor

Do it again ad infinitum

Your armor is whatever you like, nearly everything in this game stacks unless it says it doesn't. Every casting will increase your score by 6.



Twitter and My-matrix-space doesn't count as "matrix presences" the game is talking about real clout and ability that they would have to have. (such as Hacking etc)

Double Post =(

Excellent point. In this case, drop Vast resources to Moderate or whatever (the next step down) and just add some Area of Influence.

Yes it really is absurb.
When your Loyalty 6 contact is the biggest group of magicians in the whole world, but still has same connection rating as a squater and has no kind of influence except in a single district, i'm pretty positive that most GM.s would use their RAW option of saying no to tha particular contact.

Possession isn't permanent, and once installed all those different items become one item, thus only one spirit can be in possession of it.



One of the PPP additions is as an addition to other armer (similar to gel packs).



Actually, the reverse is true in regards to armor, only the highest rated armor counts unless it adds to other armor (helmet, shield, PPP) or is specifically stated to stack (FFBA).

I could have sworn that no spells stack with themselves, quite opposed to 'everything stacks by default'.

LOL! I know, I was merely joking about it.

... You need to learn about theoretical optomization. We assume that everything allowed by RAW is allowed for the purposes of numerical excercises such as these. And again, I refer to a comment I said earlier about things like this not actually making it in game (fully, although many of the concepts can be used at lower effect).


You're correct that possession is not permanent, but you're wrong with the installed items becoming one item. It's simply an amount of 'ware that's all implanted at the same time with certain redundant systems removed and costing one Essence and nuyen price.


If so I'd love for you to supply a quote from one of the books. I've personally read them cover to cover many times and never come across anything like that, which means the opposite is true.

But thats just it, these kind of "theoretical optimization" post are completdly useless for topic asking questions about thinks they can actually use in game, if you now that somethink wont fly on an actuall game then there's no need to post it on a topic about optimazing somethink for a real game.

I'll never forgive Wizards of the Coast for turning munchkins into "optimizers," and somehow making it seem all okay to do it. I never, ever will.

But yes, I'm of exactly the same opinion. Theorycrafting has its place when, you know, you're discussing how new or house rules interact with the rest of the system and how to avoid things getting out of hand on a metagaming or game design level. It's utterly useless in threads where people are asking for genuine help with genuine games. Anyone can pull out all kinds of absurdities and derail threads with it, but it's doing absolutely nothing to address the actual topic at hand, nor is it accomplishing anything in and of itself other than waving your manhood around about how awesome you are at bending the rules for no reason whatsoever.

What's really unforgivable is when people do that then adamantly criticize people who won't allow things to get out of hand like that. That's the part that just leaves me with question marks floating over my head.

This is not true for everyone, other don't play like you would (which isn't bad) and some if not all are allowed. Most everything I or others post is completely correct by rules. If you don't think it will work that's fine, however everyone needs a set of guidelines to build
Characters and we have that and is what I use. If individual house rules make something moot then so be it.

To the contrary, I believe that these types of threads CAN in fact be useful. They show new/new-ish GM's what kinds of twinkage is out there, and thus allow them to make a personal ruling on the subject ahead of time. By exploring the odd edges of the system, we can make the game have more versimilitude... because we can see the stupid shit coming and advise the players on how to keep it to an acceptable level. This way, we don't have to waste THOR shots on party members, and can keep the game going more easily.

Er, what? The average body is somehow higher than the actual value of any limb (or the natural value), and also in excess of the racial maximum? How's that work? Shouldn't you be counting the head as a limb, and thus dividing by 6 (giving a body of 14)? Not that it makes MUCH difference in this case, but its certainly a factor in others.

Yes, I like to see 'optimization'/abuse discussion threads. They're good for identifying trouble spots, learning counters, and for the (rare) creative idea.

Conversations wander after questions have been answered and then answered again.