nice insertion of the word ONLY there. I really like your creative editing of the text. [edit]

I think you're misinterpreting a statement.



There are 3 seperate statements here.

1: Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions in each Combat Turn.

2: These are noted as extra Initiative Passes on the characer's record sheet

3: The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 4.

From those seperate statements we can infer that some spells may give you extra IPs, and that when you have additional IPs they are to be marked on your character sheet, and you may not possess more than 4 IP (barring source material for hackers and technos to reach 5 in the matrix). Nowhere does it explicitly state, as you like to point out as RAW, that it MUST say it increases your IP in the description.

I can play with the language too. It's not very hard.

Btw, in SR4A they changed the max IPs
It's really creepy wording:

Well yeah, the only way to get 5 involves being hot-simmed. Who wants some dumpshock?

Free spirit inhabiting a great cat with move by wire 3 = 5ip in the meat

I can only think of drugs to get to 5 physical IP: Cram + Jazz + Kamikaze + K10. By this wording, it would be allowed?

I'm pretty sure that doesn't work. (Ignoring the trouble of surviving that, haha.)

Ditto for the inhabited cat; I'm fine with 4 being the absolute max meat IPs. Bloody possession rules.

I'm fine with it too, but the wording on the sr4a implies the max is 5, just that's hard to get to.

Yeah, that's terrible wording.

No, not really. 5 is the max only for the explicitly stated areas. Those areas are Hackers who hot sim with the simsense accelerator (Unwired, states it can push you to 5 IPs) and the simsense booster (Augmentation, pushes you to 3 cold, 4 hot); and Technomancers who submerge and take Overclocking and Advanced Overclocking (unwired, states it can push you to 5 IPs).

That in no way is supported by the text I quoted from the SR4A.

it doesn't say.. Max is 4, except for some special circumstances.

it says:

max is 5, but most folks will only get to 4.

Yes, reading that sentence alone creates a messy confusion. Let's ignore it and remember that we all know 4 is the max for meat-IPs.

Tell you what sabs. Find me an example of someone legitimately getting 5 meat IPs and I will readily admit I am wrong. Even the improve reflexes spell will cap you at 4 (and really, if magic can't get you there, nothing can). The 5 work in Hot-VR because you can naturally react faster there anyway.

Well see, I didn't quote the text now did I? Nice straw man setup there.

Here's how this whole argument is summed up:

1) The general consensus shows that the topic sentence of "transforms into critter" means that you automatically gain all abilities and special rules of the critter in question, including ability to fly, walk, run, use Powers (such as Natural Weapons and Venom), and access to extra Initiative Passes if the animal in question has any.

2) The line "transforms into critter" is later defined as referring to the critter's stat block for physical attributes. So in this case you would take the physical attributes only of the critter, increased by successes as per the spell, and ignore the whole rest of the critter's Special Attributes (where Initiative Passes are located), Mental Stats, Movement, and even Powers. The FAQ (which, for some reason, people here seem to be violently opposed to and biased against) then goes on to say you also gain the Powers of the critter, but still no mention of extra Initiative Passes gained from the critter.

You guys can drag your heels and call me names all you want, what it boils down to is the line "transforms into" has no real game effect at all. It is a description of the spell, and the rules for the change that is described is a reference to the stat block of the animal to calculate your physical attributes while you are in that form. There is simply no mention of all (and that means you are not allowed to) of also referencing Special Attributes or anything else from said animal.

I would appreciate it if you would stop making inflammatory statements about myself. Simply because you and I disagree on the purpose of a single sentence from one paragraph of a game of Make-Believe is a poor basis to call people names.

No, it later in the spells rules say that you also increase the critter forms physical attributess by the succeses scored, there's absolutely nothing suggesting that you ingnore the rest of the stat line, you just dont get any improvements, on those other parts of the stat line,over a normal critter of that type.

Don't know if it's worth mentioning or not, but in 3rd edition, the Shapechange spell did specify that you don't gain the new form's extra initiative dice.

If by drag our heels, you mean to stall and waste time, I agree with you fully, continuing to discuss this with you is a complete waste of my time.

There's also absolutely nothing suggesting that you do in fact get the extra Initiative Passes, especially considering that when Initiative Passes are first mentioned it says you will be told when you get more Initiative Passes, and Shapechange does not tell you you get new Initiative Passes.


This will be a circular argument where many people will claim #1 and I will claim #2. For ease of everyone's mind, please read point #1, then read point #2, then repeat the proccess for a few hours.

I look forward to a dev answer on the subject for nothing else but a end to the crowing

The extra initiative phase of normal shape changers (not the spell) does not stack with anything, magic or cyber. I had a thought that because spirits have 3 phases naturally that if you cast increase reflexes on them that it would work but the spell specifically prohibits this.

A spirit possessing someone with the adept power Improved Reflexes might have 5 initiative phases if you count the spirit's 3 initiative phases as natural and not an increase. It is the spirit using the adepts Improved Reflexes and not the adept using the spirit to boost his initiative phase.

I don't really care which way is RAW. That is just what I could come up with as a possible way to get 5 ip in the meat.
It probably does work by RAW but only because of an oversight.

What on earth gives you the impression that possessing spirit gets the benefits of the host adepts powers.

Well I don't think the adepts powers stop working. There is also nothing about them not being able to use adept powers that must be activated.

I know saying that it does not say you can't do it is a little flimsy as an argument but I am basing this on a section of text specifically laying out what you could not do wile possessing a living vessel.

I figured that because even with channeling the spirit is still the one behind the wheel that it meant that it worked sort of like possessing someone with other powers like themographic vision, mist form, or other critter powers. The possessed living vessel uses the spirits special attributes, in this case magic. So when possessing a hell hound and using its elemental attack it would have damage based on the spirits magic not the hell hound's magic of 4. Because of that I figured it was like the spirit gained the power wile possessing just like the adept gains any number of spirit powers wile being possessed.

Incidentally, Spirits only have 3 IPs in the Astral, I thought?

It is dependent on whether or not the spirit can use the host's powers, but this might be relevant:

What counts as 'physical' in this sentence?
I dunno if that really implies access to powers.

You never stack Initiative Passes from different sources (unless you're in the Matrix, apparently). In all cases you take the highest.

Also, with Spirits: When they possess someone their Special Attributes (Force, Edge) overwrite those of their subject. Technomancers cannot use their Resonance, as stated, and by logical deduction a Possessing spirit couldn't use a Mage's spells either. That would mean they also wouldn't have access to an Adept's Powers.

Yeah, that makes sense to me.

Neraph,
I'm only here to make sure I can explain game rules as I understand them to my players.
I think it's helpful to discuss a number of interpretations.
We have a natural tendency to demonize people with differing opinions, especially on the intertubes.

I think you have a point.
The rule isn't clear and I'm glad someone will take the heat for pointing it out.
I'm still not sure I could tell a player why they don't get tracking or enhanced senses every time they shift forms.
I'm looking for certainty on this spell and I still don't have it.

You can talk all the crap about Neraph you want, but it doesn't change the fact that 1 paragraph doesn't cover the basic game mechanics of this spell.

Thank you.

Enhanced Senses is okay, because it's (almost always) a purely physical ability. Burnout awakened critters specifically retain their Enhanced Senses (nonmagical, of course).

I think adept powers work a bit differently than spells. Spells are much more a skill than something like the improve attribute adept power. I guess I sort of picture adept powers to be sort of like quickened spells but tied into the core of an adepts being so that is is a part of them and not I have learned the trick to running on water or healing faster.

If the adept were forced to astrally project by use of an astral gate or that magic drug, the adept could not use their powers in astral but they would still take their powers with them probably. But the GM might rule differently. If a adept is in the meta planes he can use his adept powers, but does the body back in the real world still benefit from things like mystic armor, cloak, and metabolic control?

There just are not rules to cover some of this stuff which makes it frustrating.

Yes, but that's even a separate question versus possession, because they're *his* powers. It is certainly frustrating.

The simplest answer is 'no'. If you ever think something is too good to be true, it isn't. If the choice is between allowing Pun-Pun and *not*, just don't. Easy.

As an aside about Shapechange, due to the FAQ allowing (Human) Form, this has new and exciting possibilities (that I've been describing for a long time actually). Now when you build a human character, or any other character that doesn't mind looking like a human, you can just cast (Human) Form and reap an Augmented Max for your physical stats fairly easily. With just 6 successes, something not that hard to do, you can get to the Augmented Max for (Human) Form!

How about this for initiative (It's been quoted before, but not with this focus):


So quite possibly, that could be interpreted as "if your reaction gets increased by this spell, your initiative passes will be too"



Oh, and another fun thing:

Initiative Passes and Initiative are two very separate things.

do humans have a 3 or a 6 for their physical stats?

As per the chart at the beginning of the book, the average stat for a human is 3. 6 successes would boost it to 9, their augmented max.

Now this unlike the previous shapechange discussion I can agree with, IF and only IF you use the FAQ, not everyone does as it is not actually a Errata and shouldnt be treated as such.

My personal take on the shapechange to human issue is what do you look like? Are you just a blank human template or do you have some control, if the second then it should make the perfect disguise spell (assumming you have masking and such)

As Mooncrow said, no. Initiative is a stat derived from two other stats, Reaction and Intuition. When the base stats are modified (by aspell, a drug, an adept power, whatever) the sentence you qoted means that the derived stat is recalculated according to their new values. Nothing more, nothing less.

Initiative Passes is a wholly different thing for which those two stats are completely irrelevant and thus it's not affected by changes to them, but only by things that specifically grant extra IPs.

I haven't even bothered trying the shapechange into uberhuman critter formy Ork magician. IMO That FAQ decision is so obviously shortsighted...I mean, is the FAQ even written by folks that play a regular game? Regardless of how a GM handles an issue like IPs, a new form of min/max brokenness was ushered in with this insanity.

Hell, I'm playing a Shaolin-trained Ork mage. He has B 6, S 5, A 5, R 5 and would STILL benefit from shapechanging into a Human 3+hits form, but the possibilities for a nerd-mage turning into Captain Hell-on-Wheels America is just stupid.

Why is it ok for my Ork to s/c into an uber-tiger or dolphin? Because of the other limits he faces...no hands, loss of communication (although I'm going to pester my GM as to whether a linguasoft exists for Dolphin hehe)

@jimbo
And you did not even come to the cheese.
This "human" is able to just disabear. There is no way to identify him afterwards.

But anyway, he will be not able to talk...

Actually, it follows the following logic:

1) (Critter) Form requires one mundane, non-paranormal animal.

2) Humans are classified as animals.

3) Dragons (not Great Dragons with their Metahuman Form Power) are stated as having the ability to use magic to appear as metahumans.

4) Profit.

probably what you describe is more the train of logic that lets paranormal critters shape change into normal critters and metahumans.

And if they can do it why can't the players or other metahumans? Is it game-breaking to allow the PCs to do it but not the NPCs?

… Yes?

... Why?

Because players break the game. The GM's whole job is to use literally infinite power to run adventures; there's no additional danger at all of letting NPCs have a power that would otherwise be dangerous for PCs. There are dozens of examples of this principle built right into the rules.

Sorry, I am not seeing that... (Obviously, Players CAN Break the Game, though, if they really want to do so)

I am still not sure why Shapechange (Human) is gamebreaking...
Could you provide some examples?

I would say that Many of the possible examples you are probably talking about (Great Dragons, Immortal Elves, Shadow Spirits, Blood Magic, Toxic/Twisted paths) are there for the GM to create interesting Opponents; Yes, they are not allowed for Players, but not because they are overpowered, but because the Game is not set up for player characters of that power scale... Many people (I 'm not one of them) allow such things in their games, but for me, they are not interesting options thaa I would want to play out in game. "wobble:

How is 'the game isn't set up for that power scale' not 'overpowered'?

I'm taking it for granted that Shapechange (Human) is overpowered, from the rest of the thread. My point was simply that there are literally dozens of things that make the answer to that question ("And if they can do it why can't the players or other metahumans? Is it game-breaking to allow the PCs to do it but not the NPCs?"), 'yes'.

Since you ask, though, it seems like Shapechange (Human) is much stronger than the various attribute-improving spells, and it works on all of them at once? If that's the case, it's clearly overpowered (that is, it's categorically better than the balanced options available).

But I WOULD Allow it for the NPC's, thus an even playing field...



It is indeed powerful, no argument about that... But I really do not see it as any more powerful than the Street Sam with Maxed Physical Attributes... At worst, it allows a Mage to attain parity (Stat Wise) physically with those who have access to the 'ware. With ANY race other than Human, though, they gain/lose soemthing to do so... A Troll with a Strength of 10 and Increase Strength Spell (Or Body 10 + Spell for that Matter) would max out at Stat: 15, all things being equal; shapechanging to a Human is a net loss for the Troll (And generally for the Ork as well; Hell, even Elves suffer in the Agility Department, and Dwarves in Body and Strength) even if he does benefit from a better agility in the end.

We have not used that particular application of Shapechange yet, thoguh I do have a character designed around that Idea. I do not really see it as an issue though (After all, you would need 18 Dice to guarantee that +6 for maxed attributes with a roll, or 24 Dice to buy the hits; My peasly build with only 9 Dice is only likely to attain that +3 Level, which takes me to 6's in Physical Stats... not exactly overpowered in my opinion). It is a trade off. In my opinion, the Human makes out the best, as they could get those stat boosts with a single spell and new identity (for all intents and purposes)...

Anyways...

Don't forget the Troll Mage Shapeshifting into an Elephant with 18, 10, 9, 22 for physical stats.

Suddenly 9's down the board look tame, especially if you allow them to gain the Powers of the critter like the FAQ mentions... Look at the Powers for Elephants and Rhinocerous.

I want to make a troll mystic adept named Rocksteady now...

EDIT: I just ran a theorhetical dicepool of 18 with 3 Edge, Edging the spell. 8 Successes (I didn't get any of my 4 rerolls on my 6's). That's 20, 12, 11, 24 for elephant and 20, 11, 12, 24 for Rhinocerous. With a little Combat Sense this elephant/rhino can dodge bullets fairly easily. Scary thought.

As a point of reference, why is there a manipulation spell that increases attributes so effectively? One net hit grants four points of increased attributes, something that is completely unobtainable via health spells. If this works so readily there should be an 'increase physical stats' spell that immediately gives me my racial augmented maximums. Or at the very least +Force to everything.

I find this spell (like many others) pointless and infuriating. Mages should be just another archetype not bizarre mutants built solely out of cheese who are inexplicably both godlike and impotent. 5e better fix some of this idiocy.