My reaction exactly.

...as a guy that hasn't played SR3, someone care to explain why?

SR3 had some mind-bogglingly detailed vehicle and weapon creation rules.

I mean, when you have about an entire page of just vehicular tire options, you maaay have gone a bit too far.




-k

What, was it to the point that it made SR4's mod system idiot-proof by comparison?

Honestly, in my opinion, the biggest problem with SR3's Vehicle/Firearm creation system was that it was incredibly easy to sit down and whip up vehicles and guns that were significantly better than the baseline ones in the book. And even if they weren't twinked out, you could pick and choose the exact traits that were optimal or ideal for your character. So everyone ended up always wanting to have an entire gear sheet full designed and built gear. Which to me smacked of twinkism, and threw me completely out of the immersion of the game in a way few things did.

Mods, I'm fine with. I like them even. Poeple are going to buy a Glock or a Chevy and then tinker with it, add stuff to it, tune it, tweak it. But with the rare exception of the occasional person who does it full time for a living, no one is going to be scratch-building weapons and vehicles in their garage. And if you are good enough to be doing that, you're good enough to not be Shadowrunning because you just found a lucrative job that doesn't involve getting shot at.

Bull

I think a lot of runners could be doing more lucrative work outside the shadows, Bull. At the end of the day, most characters that I've come across in my (obviously far less thorough and longstanding) experience with Shadowrun have had reasons other than money to run.

1) Everyone needs a hobby. I know people who build crazy stuff just for fun. These people tend to explicitly avoid making any money off it, because as soon as they try to sell anything, it moves from being a hobby to a job for them. Just because someone makes stuff for themselves doesn't mean that they have any interest in making it for others. Of course not all shadowrunners need be hobbyists but...

2) Shadowrunner's needs/desires tend to be fairly specific and niche. Even two runners in the same role are likely to want very different things. (Seriously ask any two people on these forums to pick 3 vehicles modded to their taste for their rigger character. Expect 6 completely different vehicles). A runner who makes something for himself because the market doesn't provide for his specific need doesn't mean he can go into business selling that to others. And if they decide to go into custom work, well now they have to research/design every new chasis that anyone who contacts them wants, and that quickly reaches a point where it's either unprofitable or their price needs to be pushed high enough that their market is small, and therefor an unreliable source of income at best. But even if it is feasible for a character to go into business and have a steady stream of clients for his services....

3) This assumes shadowrunning doesn't pay said skilled individuals better. I would expect a runner skilled enough to create his own suite of completely custom gear that he built himself with his own private facilities is a runner who got to the point of having the funds to do so by earning a rep that is getting him a considerable income. At this point, shadowrunning is relatively lucrative, and the character himself is skilled and experienced enough that getting shot at isn't a significant deterrent to avoid a major source of income. I mean yeah, if the character somehow gets the money, facilities, and skills to make this gear while still earning a few thousand nuyen per mission, he's better off retiring and living off his gear creating skills. But if the money from shadowrunning has gone up with the character's skill and reputation, that's a hard thing for most people to give up.




As for the issue of custom created gear being outright better... that all comes down to the balance of the gear in core. If your weapons and vehicles in core are wildly unbalanced, then yes a custom created system will be impossible to balance. On the other hand, if you have a solid system behind the scenes already, and a custom gear rule just puts that system into the hands of player, then everything should play out pretty well. Characters may create some gear that's better than the stock weapons for their personal desires, but should still be balanced overall in the context of the game. And seriously that sort of thing is what custom gear creation is all about, and the whole reason why players take build/repair skills.

The runners that are in it for the money either eventually move on to something else when the opportunity presets itself, or eventually get dead.

The guys who survive and stay in the biz for an extended period of time, tend to be doing it for other reasons besides money.




-k

I for one always liked the detailed system in 3rd edition. To me it represented a character's ability to create (or buy) the high performance gear they needed in their line of work. Was it open to abuse? Certainly, like most of the game it can be abused. But availability factors and cost should keep things in check. Or baring that, the GM is certainly withing his right to say "No".

Also there are weapons and vehicles that get left out of the books and the whole "Just reskin something already there" falls kind of flat after awhile. You end up with everything looking just about identical.

Skilled characters that come up with a novel or unique idea, should have the rules available to support them.

Generally, I think modification works better than outright creation for this sort of thing, honestly.

And considering the sheer amount of gear porn that SHadowrun ALREADY has, especially after the glut of eBooks that were released for 4th edition with both new and almost every peice of older tech? If you can't find SOMETHING to suit your whims and needs out of there, you're being far, far too picky.

Or you're just trying to min/max and much the hell out of the system.

But I do agree that part of it will be on the system itself. And it's something I'll be watching closely as we develop more stuff.

Building custom gear and whatever should be the exception rather than the rule (And my experience was in SR3, it became the rule. Most characters were carrying custom built guns and driving custom built vehicles, and it was frankly ridiculous, but it was because the system was abuseable).

Bull, I don't know how much you know about modern firearms enthusiasts, but there are a lot of people right now who garage build their very own weapons for fun. All it really takes is some machine tools. Heck, we've already had people using the absurdly young 3D printer setups to create weapons parts, not to mention tabletop sized CNC.

For example, here's a guy building an AK-47 out of a shovel using nothing but basic metalworking tools and fire.

http://thebrigade.thechive.com/2012/12/06/...k-47-50-photos/


That said, the biggest control on the SR3 systems was the GM. The pricing on all of that stuff was way off as a baseline, and needed GM oversight to keep it reasonable.

Every Afghan blacksmith can do that (and probably better than that guy too). That's because it's a simple, robust, no-frills weapon designed to be easily produced with primitive tools. Shadowrun weapons come with all kinds of complex electronics though. And an AK-47 is a much more basic weapon than a min-maxed PowerShooter 2000. As for the 3D printed weapons, apparently they're pure crap and more likely to massively injure the user than anyone they want to murder with them (how's that for irony).


The fix to bad rules writing is not reiterating GM's choice. It's a' lazy, cheap, cop-out attempt to weasel writers out of responsibility for their product.


Tying certain options, mass of options used, or something otherwise tracking the relative awesomeness of the weapon to availability and demanding increasingly complex and hard-to-get facilities for design and production (and incorporating design time into cost!) might dull the min-max-i-ness of creation rules. And assigning equipment generated legality and availability codes that by default are worse than of standard equipment, that kind of thing.

And there would also be differences in the baseline level of ability.

No, as in the literal instruction on how to price these things was to use the formula, then compare it to the published weapons and adjust up if it came out too low due to the way it was twinked.

Well, the "I made it in my shed in the Blue Mountains!" generation is a way to try and get around availability.


Transscription: "We know this system is heavily bugged, but you know, deadlines, so just look over the stats it generates and fix the most glaring WTF with GM fiat". Mike Mulvihill said as much about the generation systems in SR3 on some podcast. They were out of time and the system would have needed a lot mre tweaking. The German Rigger book did some and then was published as Rigger 3 Revised (the German system was more robust but still generated strange things).

I didn't like the SR3 or the SR4 rules. I don't mind someone having a few mods like extended clips or a personalized grip, but both rule sets seemed to be able to create weapons ludicrously more effective than the baseline ones. My personal judgement is that if you could make a short-barrel sniper rifle as concealable as a pistol, or one capable of full-auto fire, then there would be guns like that for sale.

Hell, even making the Ruger Super Warhawk capable of semi-automatic fire is not something that sits well with me. It's like you have to make a decision between firepower and firing speed, but then a second set of rules completely negates that decision-making process. I like the general idea of modifying weapons, but it is too wide open. It wouldn't be hard to fix, though - just set stricter limits on how and to what extent certain modifications, such as firing mode, can be adjusted.

Maybe make the rules as PDFs, that way those who want to use them can buy them, and those that don't won't have to.

...?

Sorry if I'm missing something, but how is this not the case with any product, ever? Why does it have to be a PDF for that to work?

I was specifically talking about the rules for creating weapons and vehicles, since it seems to be generating so much controversy. Putting them in one of the main gear books would be fine for me, but some might see it as a waste of space that they had to pay for.

Sorry if I didn't come across very well.

There are parts in an AK that have to be factory-produced, and the first among those is the barrel. You can see the guy is using a factory-produced one.

I'd rather have an edition that works out the rough edges in existing mechanics rather than reinventing everything again. The current system works and gives enough room to tinker, just Body as the stat for everything (size, survivability, modifiability) leads to weirdness.

So, for the scrap-building types, here's a question:

Would you embrace a "Build it yourself' set of design rules if the weapons you made were at best equal, but most likely inferior, to all mass-produced guns?

You might be able to match the AK-98 performance, for instance, but keeping up with an Ares Predator or Ares Alpha wouldn't be possible (Or, if possible, would result in a weapon much more expensive than the economy-of-scale Megacorp gun.)

Oddly, the USA, among several nations, does not consider the barrel, bolt, or any other part of the weapon to be the
"gun". Only the bit that holds the other bits together - the lower receiver. As such, the "other bits" are much less regulated as far as buying and selling.

The point of that shovel AK exercise was specifically to produce a lower reciever.

Barrels can in fact be made in small workshops. They were made that way for many many years before automation showed up. Same for the rest of the "other bits"

Most firearms can in fact be replicated with "workshop" level facilities. It's mostly just metalworking, after all. It just takes a heck of a lot longer and requires much greater skill on the part of the maker.

Vehicles on the other hand... well the engine, transmission, and tires would probably have to be purchased, the rest can be made with workshop tools. Again, a lot more time and skill.



-k

I would be fine with it. One off construction is always going to be more expensive than mass produced products. Also if the GM wanted to introduce a "new" mass market weapon he can always lower the price per unit.

You can do a lot of stuff in a small workshop, even down to refining the ore. That does not mean the result will be good, and even how much it is "not good" will vary wildly.

I don't think they're only talking about you making your own gun from scratch in your gunsmithy workshop; the design-a-gun and build-a-vehicle rules were also, indeed, perhaps largely, intended to allow players and GMs a set-out framework within which to design the statistics for factory-made guns by other entities.

IE, you want an Ares Arms heavy revolver with an integral suppressor and smartgun link, you design it using the rules, but it's not being built by you in your workshop, it's being built on an assembly line by Ares Macrotechnology.

There isn't a single thing in an AK that needs to be factory produced. He used a parts kit because he wasn't going to bother machining them when they weren't the point of the exercise and he had most of the bits already lying around.

Heck, if you really want to see a gun that's literally made of a bit of sheet metal, hardware store parts, plumbing supplies, and a couple tack welds, look at the M3 'Grease Gun' or the Sten.

Except that Double Action Firearms have been around for a very long time, now. And that is really all you are doing with the Ruger Super Warhawk... Taking it from Single Action to Double Action. Not really all that difficult. *shrug*

As for the Rules themselves. I far preferred the SR4A "Customization" rules over the SR3 "Make it from Scratch" Rules. They did reign in much of the idiocy that true custom builds unchecked can represent.

That might work, but it is hard to pull off, from examples in previous editions. That is why I like the Modification rules... They will ALWAYS produce a weapon that costs more than the baseline, and with a higher availability.

My Uncle had such a shop (though in SR it would still probably be considered a facility, I would guess... some of the equipment (milling machine in particular) was priced from $80,000 and up, and he had several such pieces of equipment). We made custom guns in it when I would visit him as a teenager. Including the barrels. *shrug*

I think he was talking from a game perspective and not reality. The game built a gun with a certain limit to otherwise balance its positive trait of doing more damage. Being able to just remove that limit breaks the guns on a game mechanics level. Now in that particular instance I think the Ruger is woefully underbalanced and making it SA actually balances it. Its 6 shot capacity iand slower reload speeds are a big enough balance factore for a single extra DV, SS made it suck on a mechanical scale. I still take it fairly often for the cool factor, but I know it sucks while I am doing it. It looks like it is going to continue to suck in 5e. continuity over balance I guess.

I guess... though I agree that bringing it up to SA is not that big of a deal, and in in fact a good choice, if you are in to modding your weapons.

The thing is, I liked the custom weapon design in 3E, and wished it had been in 4E. I'd designed a few weapons, and presumed they were being sold by various companies, and thus the characters still had to jump through hoops to get these. With 4E, if I wanted to make a custom vehicle, or a custom weapon, I was somewhat hosed for it. I'd introduce a weapon being tested out by 'company X', and then have to struggle with the cost and availability.

And as has been pointed out - people these days can and do make custom guns and weapons. Having Shadowrun support that would be nice. Sure, they might have better weapons than what's on the market ... but you know what? That's how weapons on the market improve - people fiddle and twitch with technology and try to make something better. (Why should this be relegated only to the megacorporations, anyway?)

If you want it balanced mechanically, then have the availability / cost reflect the superior mechanics of the weapon.

AK-97, kill every motherslotter in the room but you, accept no substitutes! When that Nanoforged POS jams on you because it was built to too tight tolerances, this baby will keep chugging away as long as you have ammo for her! There's a reason half the men in Eastern Europe are named Kalash!Saturday Night Special: Now comes in downloadable form!

~erm~ Considering the purpose of said 3D printed weapons - namely "one shot self-defense weaponry" - the results are most definitely not "pure crap" and don't seem to have a general tendancy or increased likelyhood of injuring the user more than the intended target. So there's not much irony to be seen there.

The only thing that really bothers me with this 3D tech is the increased likelyhood of "some people" coming to the conclusion that 3D printing technology for weapons should enter the SR universe ...

There are nanoforges in the books.

I was under the impression it was already there. Isn't the desktop forge basically a shadowrun 3D printer?

As first edition had 80s themes, this addition should have 2010s themes.

Also, take into account that the gun statistics are for modern weapons of the 2070s. Even today's good stuff might be Saturday night specials.

As much as I love SR3, I have to admit that the construction rules were crazy. It was way too easy to get super guns and vehicles, better, cheaper, and more available than anything in the base books. For example, I remember building a sports car capable of going Mach 1, which cost less than any other sports car in the books. SR4.5 isn't quite as bad, but you can still munchkin out some overpowered stuff if you know what you're doing. In both cases, it's also really easy to make your custom monstrosity look totally innocuous, and slip it past a GM until it's in game and too late to do anything about it.

Not if you compare it to a suicide vest. Otherwise, ABS firearms remain an exceedingly bad idea.

Then again, those printed guns would make great weapons for a face --just convince a would-be assailant to try and fire this pistol.

I'm kind of curious as to people's definitions of 'overpowered'. "Better than what is in the books", to me, isn't overpowered. The question to me is often, "is this possible?" -- for gun design, is it possible for a normal person with the proper skills and equipment to do something similar? If the answer is yes, then I'm all for it.

Can someone make a gun that's better than off-the-shelf? Yes. Would it cost less than buying one? Honestly, I don't know, but if they have the materials, it is possible. Can someone design a car that's better than what's in the market? Possibly, and it might cost more than what you'd see for sale.

Specifically, there's significant mark-up when it comes to the sale price of items. It might be cheaper to make it yourself -- but it would cost more than it costs the corporations to make it. So you'd be looking at something between manufacturing cost and sale price, most likely. Once you have your own forge, that is.

Most of the guns in Shadowrun are not physically possible, and don't follow any internally consistent creation rules. I see no problems with the SR3 gun creation system since the choices available by RAW are already broken and/or weird.

Self-defense? Right. Because what you need most for self-defense is an unlicensed, untracable gun. And it's extremely hard to buy a regular gun in America.

Also, the materials used in 3D printers simply aren't up to the pressures a gun firing regular ammunition must sustain and tend to explode. Plus, they're not really accurate.


There were weapon-producing nanoforges in Attitude. Essentially a better version of a 3D printer with scifi technology.


Uhm, no. Keep the day's politics out. It only makes the setting expire faster.

If guns help against shootings, then by that logic every American should have the god given right to his own bombs written into the constitution.
To defend themselves from Terrorism of course.

Please review the Terms of Service. Further discussion of real world gun control and/or baiting political comments will be reviewed by the moderators. Please keep to SR and stay on topic. Thanks!

Read the description of the "Streetline Special" again.

Also: Nanoforges!

Fantastic; thank you! My excitement level is growing exponentially.

Nanofax AK's anyone in the one book. (think it was War or maybe arsenal... too lazy to check).

Oh and the ammo as well! similarly printed on demand.

Using SR3 rules, I could make a pistol with a higher power than a shotgun, more ammo capacity than a SMG, more concealable than a hold out, and cheaper than a heavy pistol. That, to me, is overpowered. It's not just that it's better in one area, it's better in every way conceivable, including price.

I can't quite pull that off in SR4.5, but if SR5 goes back to the old rules for building things from scratch, I'm sure I can manage something similar.

The thing is, I'm pretty sure someone, in RL, can do the same thing. And to me, that makes it a viable tactic in the game. I'm not one for mechanical balance, I'm more for the game being able to simulate what should be possible in the setting. The GM can 'balance' things if it is necessary, though really, I don't see a 'bigger gun' being that 'broken'.