1) Firstly I'm happy to have a some quasi official autosoft prices!
In 5th edition, does anything cap the function of an Autosoft? Can a pilot 4 vehicle use a rating 6 autosoft? I see no limit in 5th edition, but my 4th edition mindset wonders if I'm missing something.

2) I'm rigging my Ares Venture in Hot VR through my rating 1 control rig and an RCC, all hardline. I have a mounted gun on the venture and I want to use it to shoot at some poor corp security goon. Does my Control Rig improve my Accuracy? I don't think it does because it expressly adds to handling and speed, but doesn't mention accuracy.
Note: Passive Sensor targeting would let me use my rating 4 sensor system instead of the weapon's accuracy, but I suspect a Smartlinked weapon will simply be better.

3) I suspect the Control Rig's "reduce vehicle threshold" feature doesn't apply to attacks with a mounted gun because shooting someone isn't a vehicle threshold. Right?

4) Is Gunnery supposed to be Logic or Attribute linked? Does it depend on if I'm jumped in or not?

5) Page 445 says I can use Electronic Warfare in place of Perception when using Sensor systems. Drones and Vehicles are all sensor based when you are jumped in. All the examples involving vehicles use perception, but I'm assuming Electronic Warfare is valid for all those situations, but I'm stilling using Intuition on those dice pools.

6) Attempting to evade sensor lock uses "Infiltration" (Sneak) but is capped at Vehicle skill rating. Is this still a Vehicle Test to which I can apply the benefits of a Control Rig? I assume only specializations in Sneak, not piloting, apply... but that could mean someone with a Rank of 6 piloting and no specialization but rank 6 with a specialization in Sneak is actually better at flying when evading sensor lock than normal.

7) A vehicle that takes damage suffers "wounds" which reduce it's handling, which is a limit now ("Busted vehicles just don’t handle well. Apply the vehicle’s damage modifier as a penalty to Handling." page 201). A Fed-Boing Commuter has handling 3 but body 16. If the vehicle suffers 12 boxes of damage, it's handling would be -1. Does that mean it goes out of control because it's impossible to get any success on a piloting roll and you need to make one every Turn or it goes out of control? Of course if it's being piloted in (cold or hot) VR (+2 handling) by someone with a Control Rig 1 (+1 handling) then it's still got a handling of 2... so I guess it's not a big problem if it does work that way.

1) No.

2) It looks like the Handling and Speed increase by your control rig rating, but not Accuracy. But you do get bonus dice for Gunnery tests, because it's a Vehicle skill.

3) Vehicle Tests are described on p. 199 and do not include shooting people.

4) Gunnery is linked to Agility. According to one part of the book, you use Logic when controlling a weapon remotely and Agility in another. We'll have to wait for the errata on that one.

5) Seems like a sound assumption.

6) It's not a Vehicle Test (p. 199 again). Even if it was, both specialization and the control rig give bonus dice, not bonus skill levels.

7) I don't know. I'll ask.

7) On page 201, there is a chart for "Piloting damaged vehicle" which states: "–(damage modifier) Handling (minimum 1)[emphasis mine]". So your Plane / Tank / etc. will continue to go until it gets blow'd up, but it'll be a pain to drive.

4. Gunnery is a dual linked skill.

If you are using it manually (ie, there in person), then it is an Agility Test.
If you are remotly controlling it (ie. NOT there in person), then it is a Logic Test.

I would expect that Errata will have little to do with this, as that is how it SHOULD be. Though it could likely be better explained.

Assuming that Crash Tests still require a Threshold of 3 (2 with a VCR?), that Minimum 1 Limit will result in crashed vehicles the second you are forced to make a crash test, unless you are willing to spend Edge on it.

1) As far as we can tell, no. It's not a radical departure, since Auto-softs only go up to rating 6.

2) Aaron is wrong. Actually your control rig *does* affected the accuracy of *mounted* weapons:
"When you’re jumped into a vehicle, drone, or other device, the limits of that device are increased by the rating of your control rig. This includes vehicle and drone Sensor, Speed, and Handling, and the Accuracy of mounted weapons when used by the rigger. The control rig also connects more smoothly through an RCC when operating in VR." - pg. 266

3) Aaron is right, while Gunnery is a Vehicle *Skill*, using it does not count as a vehicle test.

4) The book is contradicting itself on this issue. Gunnery is listed as an Agility linked skill in the skills section (pg. 146), but the actual combat section says it should be Logic linked:

"Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Weapon Skill + Agility [Accuracy] for manual operation, like door guns on mounts, or Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems." - pg 183

Since the only weapons that categorically fall under the Gunnery skill (big-BIG guns!) can only be operated remotely, or at least through powered/mechanical targeting system, I think Gunnery should only ever be used with Logic.

5) "When you use the sensor array for Perception Tests, you may use your Electronic Warfare skill in place of your Perception skill, and you may use the sensor’s Rating as your limit." - Emphasis mine. Another oversight in the rules, is that you shouldn't be able to cram a sensor array into a drone smaller then medium as it doesn't have the space... but apparently they still do at the rating in the vehicles table. The whole section on sensors could use some work. Anyway to your actual question: nothing indicates that you shouldn't use Intuition.

6) I'd say that the control rig applies, since you're piloting the vehicle (so it's a vehicle test). As for the whole issue with specialization: Dunno good question... I see two approaches, one: make the cap apply to specialization too, two: I'd make the player re-take the specialization for hiding with a vehicle, as the task is so much different then doing the same in person and have it apply by vehicle type.

7) I assume your interpretation is correct... that big whale in the Sky would indeed go out of control way before it disintegrated.

Crashes are different now. First, I'm fairly certain that your VCR reduces the threshold of vehicles tests by it's rating (so a rating 3 control rig would make even the hardest maneuvers simple in comparison). Crashing only occurs "1) as the result of a ramming test, 2) when a vehicle on a collison course fails a vehicle test, or 3) when the GM feels it's thematically appropriate"(I'm paraphrasing). So, despite the fact that you're flying on a wing and a prayer, unless you try something drastic you should be able to nurse your wounded bird home despite it's handling being reduced to 1. Additionally, bear in mind that driving in VR gives +2 Handling. It occurs to me that that could mean that while your vehicle's handling has been reduced to 1 from wounds, your effective handling would be 3 while in VR, no matter how damaged the vehicle is. That Roadmaster is going to keep on chugging, and ain't stopping for nobody.

-DrZ

That would make sense... Thanks

One thing to keep in mind is that when it comes to skills, "linked" is not the same as "always rolled with the skill."

True enough, but it's a particularly egregious when you pick an attribute that you normally *don't* roll with.

it's beginning to look like as far as gunnery is concerned, linked is actually going to mean "almost never rolled with the skill".

i mean, really, how many characters do you know of that picked up gunnery and *aren't* planning on using it to fire weapons remotely?

If Gunnery were linked to Logic, you couldn't use a reflex recorder to be better at it (it requires that the skill is linked to a physical attribute). Perhaps that's why they did it that way?

But what rigger is A: Investing in agility and B: how are they going to use a reflex recorder for a gun they are firing while in VR?

Well, A: they don't have to, and B: it says "The reflex recorder adds 1 to the Rating of a specific skill linked to a Physical attribute."

It may be linked to Agility by default, but I would never give you the bonus from the Reflex Recorder if you were using Remote Firing (which uses Logic instead). Would work great for the times you fired the gun Manually, though.

The irony being that manually firing the turret uses the appropriate weapon skill, not gunnery.

I have a thematic question about riggers.

In your games, when do you find Rigger use advancing to the use of things beyond ground/water craft, into helicopters/vtols, or specialized watercraft? When we look at some of the Jackpoint stuff, we'll see things like Sounder or Kane talking about some vehicle they have (with list prices in the millions). If you look at the logistics of Rigger use tho, you see that while sure it might be cool to have a combat helicopter or even a docwagon copter rigged to be a combat one, the price of AMMO alone tends to make it not as worthwhile. Rockets and stuff start in the thousands per shot, whereas on a smaller scale, but similar effect, you could load a medium airdrone with a grenade launcher and provide fire support.

A Panzer might be cool for a smuggling game, but not so much for a Seattle one, I mean, you bring a tank into play and you get more than law enforcement on your ass. Likewise, bigger craft like panzers and vtols and vectored thrusts or actual combat choppers cost huge money, and if you're not getting repairs/etc covered in cost, you lose money even when don't need it for combat. So do you find your riggers stick to the usual "some sort of modified Roadmaster, maybe a boat, small army of drones, etc" and if so, for how long.

In my games riggers stick to the smaller stuff. The stuff that is easier to hide. We never had a campaign high-powered enough to have actual combat choppers for the players. Although i am planning a little side campaign with mercenaries in a warzone where ressources will be more of a story element then actual stuff the PCs own.

One of my chars once managed to capture a helicopter from a rival runner team but then dumped it because getting away with it would have caused too much heat.

In general i think it is a question of "How much should your game be like an action movie?". We usually play more on the small scale runner side so that material losses hurt and stuff with high maintenance cost is avoided.

Not so... Look at the Gunnery Skill...



So, no, it does not. If the weapon is VEHICLE MOUNTED, you use the gunnery skill for manual firing. Pretty cut and dried, there.

I have a SR4A Russian Mercenary (Ex-Special Forces, Wanted by his former Country for war crimes) that I play from time to time, and he is investing into some interesting vehicles. He is about 1/2 done with a reconstruction of an old MI-24 Hind-D/E Gunship Helicopter (He has a small base in the NAN across from Seattle proper, on a small island). A hobby, to be sure, but you never know when you might need a gunship. He also has an old Riverine Boat (with concealed gun pits) that he recovered and restored. Nothing like the old school for vehicles. Of course, upgrading the electronic packages is challenging, but he has time. He has gone so far as to gather schematics on the vehicles and all the weapons packages and has been refitting his vehicles with those. Amazing the amount of retro equipment lying around in Russia that you can get your hands on, if you know the right people. Also managed to get enough fuel in his bunkers for the two vehicles for some extended operations. The character is a lot of fun. More so because he is unaugmented and non-magical. So, everything is a monumental challenge to him, as he tries to compete with those samurai who are either on the cutting edge, or are awakened.

The Character is not a TRUE Rigger, to be sure (No 'ware to fill the role), but he is a HIGHLY competent Driver/Pilot (Skill 4's).

Except you also have this quote from the book too: Which implies that if the weapon is vehicle mounted with a manual operation add-on, you use the normal skill, but if you use it remotely you use the Gunnery skill with Logic. Unless you interpret "Weapon skill" to only be Gunnery, of course, why then not just say Gunnery? Maybe the intent is that you can use the base weapon skill or gunnery? There are other examples of such flexibility in the rules, like Electronic Warfare standing in for Perception when using a Sensory Array.

Or maybe it's just bad editing and will be fixed in errata. Plenty of that in the rules right now too.

Which works, because the weapon skill for vehicle mounted weapons IS GUNNERY.

House rules are useful things! If you can explain to me how the skill at driving a car using a steering wheel and pedals translates directly into skill at "being" the car in VR, while the reflex recorder, which modifies your brain, doesn't translate, perhaps I will join you.

The reflex recorder does not modify your brain. It enhances muscle memory. That is why it is a REFLEX recorder. Your brain is not muscle memory. Explain to me how muscle memory is going to benefit you when you are piloting through brain impulses to a device THAT HAS NO MUSCLES. Your muscle memory will not help you pilot a drone. Your muscles mean squat to the drone.

How much active thought do you place into your actions while you're driving? How much when tying your shoes?

Not everything is stored in the brain, and while the implantation description of a Reflex Recorder has changed from the spinal column in SR4a to the brain itself in SR5, the description still says it is attached to the nerves for motor reflexes.

Being in VR means your brain is doing all the work. Outside of VR it's your full body.

If the skill in use is tied to a Physical Attribute, I'd say the Reflex Recorder applies. If that same skill jumps to a Mental Attribute, I'd say the Reflex Recorder no longer applies.

Aside from a pink mowhawk game that included a couple of big game hunters that drove around a small off-road vehicle with the skull of a dragon they killed replacing the hood and a massive cannon-like weapon mounted to the back? No I haven't seen much in the way of high end/non-subtle vehicles in Shadowrun games.

In 4th I ran a character that had a re-purposed construction walker drone that he'd more or less turned into a mini-mech with pimped ride, but he could still transport that in his van using a Drone launcher/landing pad. Beyond that most uses of high end gear was short term: borrowed from contacts or provided by the Johnson for the mission. An albino T-Bird Pilot named NovaKane made regular appearances in our game, and sometimes runs involved firing weapons out the back of his jet after pursuers, for example.

Here in 5th, however, the price point and availability for some interesting vehicles is now technically within starting rigger reach, and will only become more so as we (probably) see edges for starting with extra cash or higher restricted gear show up in Splat Books.

I'm personally interested in trying to play a Rigger with an Ares Venture type craft. Basically a T-Bird Pilot as a PC Shadowrunner instead of an NPC. I'm not sure how well it will work out, but I'm curious to try it. I picture doing hot drops or pickups of a crew as interesting, and with some investments in sensor systems I can also use the ship as an eye in the sky for various purposes. Basic flying of vehicles in and around town isn't expressly illegal, but for when he gets caught doing something that will draw too much attention I've been stating him out with a high enough Pilot and Stealth Skills that he can fly low to avoid radar and actively dodge sensor systems. I've also got him the Wrapper cyberprogram so he can somewhat conceal his craft's signature as something other than a VTOL LAV (instead of always trying to dodge radar), and I've given him the knowledge skills associated with Air Traffic Control and Smuggling Routes to allow that to all make sense. T-Bird Pilots have been flying in and out through the Cascade Ork Salish Tribe for a long time in lore. Also, most air response a facility can scramble quickly won't be able to keep up with the Ares Venture at top speed, and they won't be able to track him once he gets going on a Low Flying & high speed run (Classic T-Bird), so emergency hot pick ups from parking lots or roofs is actually viable. Drop off is less subtle, but once we get parachute gear stats (or enough hits on a Levitation spell) the group should be able to deploy fairly silently from the air. I haven't looked at the details, but combining Improved Invisibility with Silence might allow the entire vehicle to make a quick drop-off, although as the pilot I would still need to use the rules for avoiding sensor lock to prevent detection in many cases. Mind you, I haven't actually looked closely at the rules for casting spells on vehicles. Until then/the rest of the the time, the crew can roll up from ground level in whatever ground vehicles they've got.

Of course, the current rules don't support much in the way of mounted heavy fire power at character creation. Heavy Weapon mounts have an availability too high, and the only rocket available is Frag fired from a disposable hand held launcher, although it's still fairly potent. My Ares Venture idea has mounted Ares Alpha assault rifles with grenade launchers loaded with a few High Explosive Grenades. I'm hoping to buy it a Heavy Weapon Mount and Krime Cannon in play ($26,200 including mount and smartgun). Assault Cannon ammo is only $40 a shot instead of $2,000+ per rocket, and at 16p -6ap damage it is essentially high explosive grenade damage but without the scatter/detonation issues, and about $60 cheaper a shot. That's a big part of the reason pick and up fly away at top speed, below radar level, is the standard plan for involvement via VTOL... it's a great get away, probably over kill in many situations, but sticking around is too risky once the corp realizes you have aircraft involved. You don't want to give the corp time to scramble their own VTOLs from whatever regional base they have because those suckers will have real anit-aircraft weapons and are just as fast or faster then mine. You also don't want to give the ground forces enough time to dig out that one striker missile launcher out of their locked weapons storage either.

Actually, I'm also looking at adding a silenced sniper rifle to the VTOL, so I can covertly deal with exposed targets from the air without drawing the attention of a grenade launcher, assault rifle burst, or cannon shot. I might actually mount that on a separate rotodrone.

Sadly, it is just another indicator of not paying attention to the consequences of a change.

Reflex Recorder in SR4A, is only useable for Physical or Combat Skills, linked to a Physical Attribute. So, in SR4A, you COULD NOT take it for Gunnery. It is neither a Physical Skill nor a Combat Skill, it is a Vehicle skill. Sadly, in SR5, it can apparently be applied to any skill that is Physical Attribute linked. So now, expect to see a lot of Reflex Recorders being used for Vehicle skills, especially for Rigger types. Never mind that Gunnery, when used remotely, is a Mental Attribute link. *sigh* The world weeps.

And just to muddy the waters up a bit more: Control Device action from the Matrix section p. 238:
So that's now an example of the rules saying you use Agility instead of Logic when using a weapon in remote control too.

Sigh. I miss the SR4A Chart of what you use for what depending on manual, rigging, remote control, or drone autopilot.

Indeed... Crazy... The chart was very nice to have.