Full Version: Sloppy Runners.
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Do not attempt to write off the accuracy of others comments because of your poor word choice. |
I stand by my word choice, and I rather like Siege's analysis of the semantics. You and I are obviously using "infiltration" and "betrayal" differently.
Regarding the accuracy of your comment, "Thats betrayl, not infiltration then. Which isnt what you said. Which are you talking about......."
As far as I'm concerned, I'm talking about them both. The infiltrator will end up betraying Mr. Platinum's group's trust to teach them their lesson of sloppiness. That is a core act of an infiltrator: gaining falsely earned trust and betraying it.
And as far as you're concerned...
| QUOTE |
| In SR, Infiltration of a team is next to impossible, and very implausible, for all the reasons stated before in this thread. Betrayal of a team is much more plausible, but not neccessarily more likely. |
...by the way you define "infiltration" and "semantics," that's probably correct. Funny how using different word definitions can change whether someone's right or wrong.
| QUOTE |
| I wonder what this leads up to. |
Lessons on being less sloppy, with some more poignant points than might be done otherwise. Like:
*"Oh, shit, he got into our GROUP"
*"I never thought of mind probing new team members before"
*"So machine gunning a dozen megacorp guards on UCAS territory results in the FBI helping the megacorp by trying to serve an extradition warrant on me?"
*"Hire a decker to do a background check on Mr. Johnson? I never thought of that..."
etc.
Of course, as others have noted, it has to be handled delicately because you are going to end up betraying trust of the players and PCs alike.
| QUOTE |
| Runners have to deal with the FBI or some other Big Player. Now what? Will the runners be forced to work for them under less than favorable conditions? Wow, that'd be really creative, I've never heard this before. |
So? Cliched plots are often easy to implement in RPGs because the GM knows them backwards and forewards, and has an easier time improvising when needed because the permutations of the plot are pretty well know.
| QUOTE |
| Or will they be hunted "just because"? |
Recall just how many illegalities the average runner commits:
*Murder
*Breaking and entering
*Illegal weaponry
*Illegal cyberware
*Illegal magic
*All sorts of statute violations: cross corp borders illegally, lack of licenses, black market deals, etc.
If the FBI wants to hunt the runners after infiltrating them, the reason may not need to be given - there's so many to pick from. But that doesn't mean they're being hunted "just because."
| QUOTE |
| Aside from all this, I'd like to point out that if done right, having somebody infiltrate a team of runners leads up to some veeery rewarding adventure hooks. But that's not something I'd waste on sloppy runners. |
For reasons I gave earlier in the thread, I think that a sloppy team is the perfect place to start with infiltrations. First, it's easier than infiltrating a hard core professional shadowteam. Second, it should be an easy stepping stone deeper into the shadows; burning the sloppy runners is just a fringe benefit. Third, no one will miss them if their rep is going down the tube due to their sloppiness. If the infiltration is being launched as a "sting operation" to "make an example" for some politician's benefit, does the FBI want to piss of the megacorps by infiltrating and burning a team of good runners?
Fine, just be clear that as far as your concerned, and as far as the english language is concerned, are different things. Which makes communication via a text based medium challenging. So when you start worrying about being right or wrong, youre missing the point. Say what you mean.
And if you think about all the resources and planning it takes to infiltate or betray a shadow ops team with that kind of coordintate effort by a larger power, be very sure you have some justification appropriate to the effort. Because its more cost effective to just buy them out, or pay another team to perform the job, or any number of other things. People dont sink years of planning and setups, and millions of nuyen, into getting a man onto a team to pull an inside job when they could just pay Bob the Runner 10k to do the same thing.
And if you think about all the resources and planning it takes to infiltate or betray a shadow ops team with that kind of coordintate effort by a larger power, be very sure you have some justification appropriate to the effort. Because its more cost effective to just buy them out, or pay another team to perform the job, or any number of other things. People dont sink years of planning and setups, and millions of nuyen, into getting a man onto a team to pull an inside job when they could just pay Bob the Runner 10k to do the same thing.
| QUOTE |
| Fine, just be clear that as far as your concerned, and as far as the english language is concerned, are different things. |
No, I used the terms correctly, just not in the same way as you. "Infiltration" does not refer solely to Hollywood million-dollar operations with dozens of agents involved. It also involves getting Bob the Runner to join the team and, weeks or months later, betraying their trust.
I had a group who had been doing a series of runs against a division of Novatech. The guy running the security for said division wanted an inside man. So he hired another Shadowruner to work for him, and then used some street contacts to put him in place. The team needed some extra muscle every once in a while so they hired the guy. After a while he became a full fledged member.
Which made it all the more surprising to them when he turned on them.
Out of character, here is what happened.
We had a 5 players in our group. But I like 6 on a team. A friend of mine wanted to join the game and learn how to play it. But he couldn't play every time. So I proposed this idea to him, he loved it.
It worked great, everyone was in complete shock when he turned them over to NT. Made it all the better when they escaped the corps grasps, and ran into the guy while he was alone.
Sweet revenge.
So, is infiltrating a team possible... easily, and not nearly as hard as some have made it out to be. You just have to have a little imagination.
Which made it all the more surprising to them when he turned on them.
Out of character, here is what happened.
We had a 5 players in our group. But I like 6 on a team. A friend of mine wanted to join the game and learn how to play it. But he couldn't play every time. So I proposed this idea to him, he loved it.
It worked great, everyone was in complete shock when he turned them over to NT. Made it all the better when they escaped the corps grasps, and ran into the guy while he was alone.
Sweet revenge.
So, is infiltrating a team possible... easily, and not nearly as hard as some have made it out to be. You just have to have a little imagination.
| QUOTE |
| It also involves getting Bob the Runner to join the team and, weeks or months later, betraying their trust |
Ok, question: Why would Bob do that without someone having a reason? Answer: he wouldnt. Which implies some guiding force behind him, and presumably giving Bob intelligence on the team, maintaining contact with Bob, issuing him directives, etc. It doesnt have to be a task force to be ordained by a higher power than the individual decision. But as soon as its not an on-the-spot decision, as soon as its a means to an end, youve changed terms.
As I said, the act of Betraying the team (which is what you, yourself, just said Bob was doing in the above quote) is a real risk. With or without any outside factors. The act of infiltrating the team for some purpose is far-fetched.
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Ok, question: Why would Bob do that without someone having a reason? Answer: he wouldnt. Which implies some guiding force behind him, and presumably giving Bob intelligence on the team, maintaining contact with Bob, issuing him directives, etc. It doesnt have to be a task force to be ordained by a higher power than the individual decision. |
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. You get someone to infiltrate the team, not necessarily requiring a large task force, just some guiding force (an FBI agent dangling a murder arrest warrant over the infiltrating runner, perhaps), and he betrays them at some point. Or not - the goal of the infiltration might not be to turn on the team itself.
| QUOTE |
| But as soon as its not an on-the-spot decision, as soon as its a means to an end, youve changed terms. |
Well, sort of. Getting into the team is infiltration; turning on them is betraying them. The terms 'infiltration' and 'betrayal' apply to different actions. Infiltration is getting in ("to enter or become established in gradually or unobtrusively usually for subversive purposes"), betraying is turning on the people who trust you ("to deliver to an enemy by treachery").
An infiltrator is quite capable of being a betrayer.
| QUOTE |
| As I said, the act of Betraying the team (which is what you, yourself, just said Bob was doing in the above quote) is a real risk. |
Yeah. After Bob infiltrates the team and wins their trust, the team is going to be pissed when he betrays them.
| QUOTE |
| The act of infiltrating the team for some purpose is far-fetched. |
The prevelance of undercover police officers leads me to disagree with you. Infiltration of criminal groups is a stock police tactic.
Yes, the act is a stock police tactic, but the whole "criminal groups" part is where it screws up.
Infiltrating a criminal group, with a structure and agenda, conncetions, a MO, etc is all well and good. It provides a ton of useful information, and potential leads.
Infiltrating a team of SRs gets you two things, and Jack just left town.
Heres a few reasons:
- They have no structure or agenda. What they do and for who is entierly random
- They have no connections beyond a few, essentially random, individulas over their area of exepertise. If the cops (or whoever) wanted to get to Joe the Shadey Mechanic, they wouldnt do it thru is runner pal; who, if anything is *more* skilled and paranoid than Joe himself.
- Runners have no MO or ongoing operation or schemes. There is no gambling ring. There is no series of linked crimes. There is only what job theyre randomly selected for after the one they just did.
- Runners *dont* know who hired them, or why. Thats what makes them runners. The very fact they are runners, and that the infiltrating agent is posing as a runner, bars them from receiving any information about any specific employer.
-- subpoint: if theyre being hired by a mega, the megas are extraterrorial anyhow and the cops/whoever cant do anything. if theyre being hired by a non-mega, and just need info, its cheaper and easier and more effective to pay the team to dig up dirt than infiltrate the team hoping to find it
- The only people really subject to being betrayed would be the runners themselves. The lack of connections and associations is the hallmark of a SR. If anyone/organization wanted to get at a specific runner, theres again 100 better ways to do it than try to gain and then betray his trust. Plain old blackmail, for one, is going to be a lot easier to pull off and not subject to him finding out before hand blowing the operation; or buying off a contact.
Those are just some of what pops to the top of my head as to why its implausible.
Bottom line, your game, do what you will, but at the start of the thread you asked "what do you guys think" and "have you done it before". The answer is "I think its a bad idea because its unrealisitc and the players will think you did it just to screw them" and "no".
Infiltrating a criminal group, with a structure and agenda, conncetions, a MO, etc is all well and good. It provides a ton of useful information, and potential leads.
Infiltrating a team of SRs gets you two things, and Jack just left town.
Heres a few reasons:
- They have no structure or agenda. What they do and for who is entierly random
- They have no connections beyond a few, essentially random, individulas over their area of exepertise. If the cops (or whoever) wanted to get to Joe the Shadey Mechanic, they wouldnt do it thru is runner pal; who, if anything is *more* skilled and paranoid than Joe himself.
- Runners have no MO or ongoing operation or schemes. There is no gambling ring. There is no series of linked crimes. There is only what job theyre randomly selected for after the one they just did.
- Runners *dont* know who hired them, or why. Thats what makes them runners. The very fact they are runners, and that the infiltrating agent is posing as a runner, bars them from receiving any information about any specific employer.
-- subpoint: if theyre being hired by a mega, the megas are extraterrorial anyhow and the cops/whoever cant do anything. if theyre being hired by a non-mega, and just need info, its cheaper and easier and more effective to pay the team to dig up dirt than infiltrate the team hoping to find it
- The only people really subject to being betrayed would be the runners themselves. The lack of connections and associations is the hallmark of a SR. If anyone/organization wanted to get at a specific runner, theres again 100 better ways to do it than try to gain and then betray his trust. Plain old blackmail, for one, is going to be a lot easier to pull off and not subject to him finding out before hand blowing the operation; or buying off a contact.
Those are just some of what pops to the top of my head as to why its implausible.
Bottom line, your game, do what you will, but at the start of the thread you asked "what do you guys think" and "have you done it before". The answer is "I think its a bad idea because its unrealisitc and the players will think you did it just to screw them" and "no".
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| - They have no structure or agenda. What they do and for who is entierly random - Runners have no MO or ongoing operation or schemes. There is no gambling ring. There is no series of linked crimes. There is only what job theyre randomly selected for after the one they just did. |
And...? They're an access point to the shadows. Counter-intel and doing footwork doesn't necessary involve knowing ahead of time who and what the criminals are up to. If police knew what the criminals were doing, they wouldn't need the sting and infiltration.
| QUOTE |
| - They have no connections beyond a few, essentially random, individulas over their area of exepertise. |
So runners know only 1 or 2 people, total? They don't even know the other people in their group, past runners they've worked with, or the names of other runners? They don't know their neighbors, or where and who their runs affected?
| QUOTE |
| - Runners *dont* know who hired them, or why. |
Utterly false for some corporations. I quoted Corporate Download earlier in this thread where it said some Megacorps regularly identify themselves to the hired runners. At least one megacorp goes so far as to pay runners with stock certificates.
| QUOTE |
| -- subpoint: if theyre being hired by a mega, the megas are extraterrorial anyhow and the cops/whoever cant do anything. |
False again. Megacorps are not limited to extraterritorial operations. They can be boycotted, subject to embargos, and all the other fun of annoying another nation. They can be smeared in the press when their hired thugs/runners do something bad, costing them sales and business. Their employees are not all housed on extraterritorial land. Heck, depending on the pressure brought on them, they can even be convinced to extradite a few scapegoats responsible for crimes on national territory.
It's all a matter of getting the evidence first, and infiltration is a good way to do that.
And other megacorps even carry less about the legalities than a national police force. They just need the evidence to know who screwed them over on those last runs so they can make reprisals, or take the offender to the Corporate Court.
If you want to play runners as implausibly perfect and able professionals, go for it. And if you want to play megacorps as invulnerable to reprisals from nations and other megacorps, go for it.
However, the Corporate Download contradicts you on how often runners know their employers and the relationship cultivated between megacorps and runners. Sometimes, in canon, runners are very much the weakest link and perfect targets for megacorp and government intelligence operations.
Access point to the shadows perhaps, but that has nothing to do with betraying a specific team so much as just posing as a runner.
Because players pick their contacts, they are essentially random, based in part on how useful they are to the character and the game. Yea runners know normal people, but so do cops. If you just need names and such hacking into a shadowland node or just bribing a decker is gonna be 10 fold the payoff.
While you may tell your players who hired them, and your players may even believe the Johnson, thats not the norm. It may happen, there may be a quote stating it, but for every instance where thats the case theres easily 50 where its not.
Megas are above the law, literally. If UCAS is dumb enough to boycott Ares, well thats their perrogative. But since Ares can just buy the land, and be extraterrotiral from the government, and then just use its own shipping line, seperate from the governement, moving things form its own factories, selling to anyone, etc etc... I dont buy it. If youre trying to say that an infiltrating agent to a shadowteam, who would then have to stumble upon some sort of evidence, which would then bring the government to start an all out war against a mega-corportation and risk the wrath of the corporate council... well then Im glad I dont play in your game, because to me thats utter nonsense.
We can just agree to disagree, youre operating on a different set of assumptions that most ds'ers. 9/10 times SRs show up, they are professional criminals that dont make mistakes, because the ones that were unprofessional and made mistakes are dead. Youre the 10th time I guess.
Because players pick their contacts, they are essentially random, based in part on how useful they are to the character and the game. Yea runners know normal people, but so do cops. If you just need names and such hacking into a shadowland node or just bribing a decker is gonna be 10 fold the payoff.
While you may tell your players who hired them, and your players may even believe the Johnson, thats not the norm. It may happen, there may be a quote stating it, but for every instance where thats the case theres easily 50 where its not.
Megas are above the law, literally. If UCAS is dumb enough to boycott Ares, well thats their perrogative. But since Ares can just buy the land, and be extraterrotiral from the government, and then just use its own shipping line, seperate from the governement, moving things form its own factories, selling to anyone, etc etc... I dont buy it. If youre trying to say that an infiltrating agent to a shadowteam, who would then have to stumble upon some sort of evidence, which would then bring the government to start an all out war against a mega-corportation and risk the wrath of the corporate council... well then Im glad I dont play in your game, because to me thats utter nonsense.
We can just agree to disagree, youre operating on a different set of assumptions that most ds'ers. 9/10 times SRs show up, they are professional criminals that dont make mistakes, because the ones that were unprofessional and made mistakes are dead. Youre the 10th time I guess.
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Access point to the shadows perhaps, but that has nothing to do with betraying a specific team so much as just posing as a runner. |
Hey, some team needs to be used as the stepping stone. By definition, they're that specific team that's going to be screwed over.
| QUOTE |
| It may happen, there may be a quote stating it, but for every instance where thats the case theres easily 50 where its not. |
It's not "*a* quote," it's paragraphs of entries defining how each AAA megacorp hires runners. I don't think they quite constitute rules, but the canonical ways that the triple-A megacorps interact and hire runners are described in the Corporate Download. That includes, in the case of several megacorps, letting the runners know who they're working for. For others, it's quite the opposite.
| QUOTE |
| Megas are above the law, literally. If UCAS is dumb enough to boycott Ares, well thats their perrogative. But since Ares can just buy the land, and be extraterrotiral from the government, and then just use its own shipping line, seperate from the governement, moving things form its own factories, selling to anyone, etc etc... I dont buy it. |
Borders and sovereignty are not barriers to manipulation, law enforcement, or exerting power. They're just speed bumps. I recommend watching CNN for a few days and seeing how one nation can get what it wants from another. There's quite a long list of techniques.
Now just imagine having a corporate or government agent in the position of a fixer... That's the center of the web, right there. All the information flows to the fixer, most teams are hired via a fixer.
Granted, this feat is almost impossible to pull off since a fixer who's runners are regularly sold out to the government will not be in business for long and it takes a lot of time and effort to become a trusted fixer but just imagine the look on your player's faces when they find out their fixer - the most central contact for a team - has been betraying them all along.
It's a stupid idea but I still like it somehow
If you want to be really mean, take one of their contacts away due to their sloppieness. Somehow whoever is hunting them got hold of one of their contacts (preferably a fixer) and this contact, being a level 1 contact who's fond of his life and business, sells them to whoever is asking. This would be quite realistic, reasonable and painfull all at the same time. The fixer wouldn't get any bad raputation for this. He did what every smart shadowperson would have done and the runners didn't deserve any better. The runners, however, will take a heavy hit to their rep. For being caught and for getting a contact in trouble. Some other contacts may not wish to keep any relations to them because it gets too dangerous. They will only be offered low-paying, irrelevant or suicidal jobs because nobody wants to trust losers like this with something important and/or difficult. Alright, that's not really infiltrating the team but it would get the point across.
Granted, this feat is almost impossible to pull off since a fixer who's runners are regularly sold out to the government will not be in business for long and it takes a lot of time and effort to become a trusted fixer but just imagine the look on your player's faces when they find out their fixer - the most central contact for a team - has been betraying them all along.
It's a stupid idea but I still like it somehow
If you want to be really mean, take one of their contacts away due to their sloppieness. Somehow whoever is hunting them got hold of one of their contacts (preferably a fixer) and this contact, being a level 1 contact who's fond of his life and business, sells them to whoever is asking. This would be quite realistic, reasonable and painfull all at the same time. The fixer wouldn't get any bad raputation for this. He did what every smart shadowperson would have done and the runners didn't deserve any better. The runners, however, will take a heavy hit to their rep. For being caught and for getting a contact in trouble. Some other contacts may not wish to keep any relations to them because it gets too dangerous. They will only be offered low-paying, irrelevant or suicidal jobs because nobody wants to trust losers like this with something important and/or difficult. Alright, that's not really infiltrating the team but it would get the point across.
Man Im done with this thread. You just want it to happen no matter what. Politics aside, UCAS, or another nation, cant just up and start a fight with the Megas. Theyre too big, with their hands in too many pies. Governments dont work without commerce and you cant get past that no matter what you do. When you have something like Aztechnology making 60% of the soy food market for UCAS (or 40% whatever it is, Im not looking the figure up but its in C.Download) you cant just be like "oh, they are bad, lets setup detainment lines outside their stores". And even if it happens, who is hurt worse: the government which is down an entier megacorp and all its subsidaries and possibly under review for penatly (via other corps) from the corporate council, or the mega which is out one of 150+ countries to sell stuff in....
| QUOTE (MrSandman666) |
| Now just imagine having a corporate or government agent in the position of a fixer... That's the center of the web, right there. All the information flows to the fixer, most teams are hired via a fixer. Granted, this feat is almost impossible to pull off since a fixer who's runners are regularly sold out to the government will not be in business for long and it takes a lot of time and effort to become a trusted fixer but just imagine the look on your player's faces when they find out their fixer - the most central contact for a team - has been betraying them all along. It's a stupid idea but I still like it somehow If you want to be really mean, take one of their contacts away due to their sloppieness. Somehow whoever is hunting them got hold of one of their contacts (preferably a fixer) and this contact, being a level 1 contact who's fond of his life and business, sells them to whoever is asking. This would be quite realistic, reasonable and painfull all at the same time. The fixer wouldn't get any bad raputation for this. He did what every smart shadowperson would have done and the runners didn't deserve any better. The runners, however, will take a heavy hit to their rep. For being caught and for getting a contact in trouble. Some other contacts may not wish to keep any relations to them because it gets too dangerous. They will only be offered low-paying, irrelevant or suicidal jobs because nobody wants to trust losers like this with something important and/or difficult. Alright, that's not really infiltrating the team but it would get the point across. |
You are correct. But the fixer may not remember them in the first place(read the rules). Furthermore, the fixer is an "expendable" level 1 contact. Just as the runners are expendable to the fixer.
And the fixer would get a Bad Rep for being caught by whoever is hunting the runners in the first place! I mean the guy in the center of the web being caught off guard, what kind of fixer is he anyway? Probably the runners are better off without him. Any contact that their enemies flip is going to have to be vulnerable - a mechanic or a street doc or a snitch maybe... but a fixer? or a johnson?
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| You are correct. But the fixer may not remember them in the first place(read the rules). Furthermore, the fixer is an "expendable" level 1 contact. Just as the runners are expendable to the fixer. And the fixer would get a Bad Rep for being caught by whoever is hunting the runners in the first place! I mean the guy in the center of the web being caught off guard, what kind of fixer is he anyway? Probably the runners are better off without him. Any contact that their enemies flip is going to have to be vulnerable - a mechanic or a street doc or a snitch maybe... but a fixer? or a johnson? |
Well, yea, ok. The fixer was sort of an extreme example. A mechanic or doc or somebody like that would be much more feasible. Also we have to keep in mind that fixers come at different levels. Some smaller ones with just a few contacts may easily be caught. They can't possibly cover all the tracks, with so many contacts (human failability is always a factor) there's always a possible leak somewhere, especially when you're just working your way up the ranks. Some random thoughts.
On the other hand you _are_ right - the fixer is just as expendable to the runners as the runners are to the fixer.
And WhiteDwarf: calm down.
You're pretty bent on restricting this to a government vs. corporate perspective. There are enough other reasons why this would happen. Yes, it's not very likely to happen. But so is goblinization. It's only a game and it's all about having fun. If he wants an infiltration in his game because he thinks it's fun, there are enough ways to go about this. We're just trying to help him out with a few ideas here. I don't think anybody's claiming to have the perfect and bullet proof idea here.
I would think that infiltrating a runner team would be kind of pointless.
What could the infiltrator's bosses get out of it?
1) Information on the runner team. Plausible, but why bother? The runners are nobody important. And if you can get somebody into the team, you already know enough to grab the whole team.
2) Information on their fixer. Possible - it depends on how much the team knows about the fixer. The whole point of a fixer is that he's the deniable 'agent' for a bunch of teams and a bunch of Johnsons. Of course, if you know enough about a team to secretly infiltrate them, you probably already know something about their fixer.
3) Information about the Johnsons. Unlikely - The whole point of professional Johnsons is that they are either almost as deniable as runners, or secretive enough that the team doesn't know anything about them. Or both. And is it worth the investment to possibly find out a few tidbits about random Johnsons?
4) Information about the biz. Possible, but pointless. It's easier to pay off a snitch. That's what they are for, and they will have a wider breadth of knowledge then your average runners.
Now, it would be reasonable to infiltrate a runner group if:
1) They worked regularly for a specific Johnson, and that Johnson was somebody worth looking into.
2) The group specializes in a particular sort of run or target, and foreknowledge of their runs would be useful in some way. It helps if the teams rep is such that they are likely choices for any job in that area.
3) There is a prophecy that says the group will be involved in something that the infiltrating parties are interested in. Notice that all three options remove a lot of the randomness and guesswork for the infiltrator's job.
There has to be a jackpot proportionate to the risks involved. When the cops infiltrate a drug ring, they do so in the hopes of taking down the whole damn ring, because the ring is a tightly knit pyramid with only a few important people at the top. If the cops can make something stick on a high man in the pyramid, the whole ring can come tumbling down. Now, runners on the other hand, are a bunch of small clusters of independents and contacts. Infiltrate a part of the network, and you get... A small part of the network. There's no organization to take down. So what's the point?
Now, beyond the question of 'is it reasonable?' there is the question, 'Am I, the GM, likely to piss off my players through metagaming behavior?'
Yes, it's metagaming. You see, when you try to infiltrate the group, you are relying on the fact that the characters have Players who are willing to stretch the suspension of disbelief a little to keep the game going. Do you really expect a new character to have to go through a few years of 'Don't call us, we'll call you', until the characters have a good in-game reason to trust their lives to this new guy on a regular basis? Of course not. If things worked that way, you wouldn't have a game.
The whole 'surprise dark secret: FBI agent' is a nifty idea, but be prepared for when the player asks: "If I'm an FBI agent, why have I been sleeping in boxes and risking my butt in all these random, unrelated jobs for the last few years with these goobers? I mean, these guys are _nobody_, and I've got a pension to think about. I think it would have been more in character to try to use that run six months ago to get myself in good with the Triads and get some real intel on the syndicates!"
What could the infiltrator's bosses get out of it?
1) Information on the runner team. Plausible, but why bother? The runners are nobody important. And if you can get somebody into the team, you already know enough to grab the whole team.
2) Information on their fixer. Possible - it depends on how much the team knows about the fixer. The whole point of a fixer is that he's the deniable 'agent' for a bunch of teams and a bunch of Johnsons. Of course, if you know enough about a team to secretly infiltrate them, you probably already know something about their fixer.
3) Information about the Johnsons. Unlikely - The whole point of professional Johnsons is that they are either almost as deniable as runners, or secretive enough that the team doesn't know anything about them. Or both. And is it worth the investment to possibly find out a few tidbits about random Johnsons?
4) Information about the biz. Possible, but pointless. It's easier to pay off a snitch. That's what they are for, and they will have a wider breadth of knowledge then your average runners.
Now, it would be reasonable to infiltrate a runner group if:
1) They worked regularly for a specific Johnson, and that Johnson was somebody worth looking into.
2) The group specializes in a particular sort of run or target, and foreknowledge of their runs would be useful in some way. It helps if the teams rep is such that they are likely choices for any job in that area.
3) There is a prophecy that says the group will be involved in something that the infiltrating parties are interested in. Notice that all three options remove a lot of the randomness and guesswork for the infiltrator's job.
There has to be a jackpot proportionate to the risks involved. When the cops infiltrate a drug ring, they do so in the hopes of taking down the whole damn ring, because the ring is a tightly knit pyramid with only a few important people at the top. If the cops can make something stick on a high man in the pyramid, the whole ring can come tumbling down. Now, runners on the other hand, are a bunch of small clusters of independents and contacts. Infiltrate a part of the network, and you get... A small part of the network. There's no organization to take down. So what's the point?
Now, beyond the question of 'is it reasonable?' there is the question, 'Am I, the GM, likely to piss off my players through metagaming behavior?'
Yes, it's metagaming. You see, when you try to infiltrate the group, you are relying on the fact that the characters have Players who are willing to stretch the suspension of disbelief a little to keep the game going. Do you really expect a new character to have to go through a few years of 'Don't call us, we'll call you', until the characters have a good in-game reason to trust their lives to this new guy on a regular basis? Of course not. If things worked that way, you wouldn't have a game.
The whole 'surprise dark secret: FBI agent' is a nifty idea, but be prepared for when the player asks: "If I'm an FBI agent, why have I been sleeping in boxes and risking my butt in all these random, unrelated jobs for the last few years with these goobers? I mean, these guys are _nobody_, and I've got a pension to think about. I think it would have been more in character to try to use that run six months ago to get myself in good with the Triads and get some real intel on the syndicates!"
Lol Im quite calm. Im just tired of trying to explain another point of view on a thread that doesnt want to see it. Theres little exchange back and forth, just "blah blah re-statement" so why bother typing. The author is going to use his idea regardless of how it stands in others lights. I could have some unignorable reason (like mind probe) as to why it wouldnt work - and it wouldnt change things.
And on that note, Lantzer, your post is very well written, and is basically the point of what I (and a few others) have been saying. That it could happen, but theres 100+ reason why it shouldnt, because its implausible. So when a reply happens saying "yes but I think it is plausible" just let it go. The little subset of 3 points about when it would work dont really apply to SRs without a special campaign setup (like youre not SRs youre Company Men). Suspension of disbelief vs suspension of reality... So yea, good thoughts, anyhow.
And on that note, Lantzer, your post is very well written, and is basically the point of what I (and a few others) have been saying. That it could happen, but theres 100+ reason why it shouldnt, because its implausible. So when a reply happens saying "yes but I think it is plausible" just let it go. The little subset of 3 points about when it would work dont really apply to SRs without a special campaign setup (like youre not SRs youre Company Men). Suspension of disbelief vs suspension of reality... So yea, good thoughts, anyhow.
It might be of intereset to some to know that for the last 3 or so years (since i first started playing shadowrun) my character Dice is an agent of a special ops division of the NSA (with appropriate Dark Secret. Oh, and I knew I was and agent from the get go... just because its a dark secret it doesn't mean the *you* don't know it... just that if it became public knowledge it would be.... ummmm... sub-optimal). I joined an existing team of runners as I was a decker (well, decker/covert ops type) but have now moved more into rigging (we got a shed-load of deltaware upgrades made available to us after a time-travelling adventure led us to greatly helping Lofwyr back in Earthdawn times.... He repaid his debt with 5 Million 
of upgrades when we got back... oh, and we got a brucie bonus mysterious cyberware flaw for free too... doh!)
Anyway, long story short, after many missions I ended up having to reveal to the runners that I was an NSA agent, but that all I was passing back to the NSA was details on our Johnsons and Targets. My superiors were basically interested in what the various corps were up to and who was making plays on whom over what etc. They were uninterested in the runners, and were basically just acting as a silent Johnson using the runners (and me) as deniable assets just like any other corp.
Put that way the runners, with some misgivings, accepted the situation, especially as my NSA contacts had got our butts out alive from runs turned sour a few times.
Unlike many games of SR are apparently run, there is little inter-party conflict or betrayal, though sometimes I do have to wrestle with conflicts of interest, but I can usually find a suitable compromise solution.
of upgrades when we got back... oh, and we got a brucie bonus mysterious cyberware flaw for free too... doh!)Anyway, long story short, after many missions I ended up having to reveal to the runners that I was an NSA agent, but that all I was passing back to the NSA was details on our Johnsons and Targets. My superiors were basically interested in what the various corps were up to and who was making plays on whom over what etc. They were uninterested in the runners, and were basically just acting as a silent Johnson using the runners (and me) as deniable assets just like any other corp.
Put that way the runners, with some misgivings, accepted the situation, especially as my NSA contacts had got our butts out alive from runs turned sour a few times.
Unlike many games of SR are apparently run, there is little inter-party conflict or betrayal, though sometimes I do have to wrestle with conflicts of interest, but I can usually find a suitable compromise solution.
Might I suggest that a less problematic way to make their life hell would be to "tag" them. If they are sloppy, then they are leaving biologic telltales behind for any enterprising tracking mage, be it corporate employee, legal afficianado or simple bounty hunter.
Another thought; how often do they check themselves for RFID tags? Last I checked Mitsuhama made some dynamite little flea-sized drones. Or if you're really evil they could be nanite-sized, breathed in when they enter a specific area, only to lodge more or less permanently in their lungs like cigarette smoke. Getting rid of those while on the run would make an adventure in itself.
Are these evil enough, or should I go on?
Another thought; how often do they check themselves for RFID tags? Last I checked Mitsuhama made some dynamite little flea-sized drones. Or if you're really evil they could be nanite-sized, breathed in when they enter a specific area, only to lodge more or less permanently in their lungs like cigarette smoke. Getting rid of those while on the run would make an adventure in itself.
Are these evil enough, or should I go on?
Heck, the mole could not even know he's a mole. Screw mindprobe, Kidnap a sammy, give them an opticam, sound recorder and a GPS that tansmits through a phone or radio, or just phones home whenever he uses his datajack.
Mysterious Cyberware is cool!
Mysterious Cyberware is cool!
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| Heck, the mole could not even know he's a mole. Screw mindprobe, Kidnap a sammy, give them an opticam, sound recorder and a GPS that tansmits through a phone or radio, or just phones home whenever he uses his datajack. Mysterious Cyberware is cool! |
Yeah, but doesn't a sammie go in for his semi-monthly tune-up?
Oh, wait...sloppy runners. Never mind.
-Siege
Might as well chuck my hat in there...
Firest, to all the "This wouldn't happen" "That wouldn't happen" folks. Pardon me, but behold the awesome power of my imagination. It's really easy to make up contrived situations that require anything you want including why or how a government agency could or would want to infiltrate a runner group. You don't agree with it or wouldn't do it yourself, great, you're entirely entitled but don't tell me someone else can't do it and explain it away perfectly rationaly.
However, I myself always demand party cohesiveness. You don't have to get along and you can get into fights and all that other fun stuff but when push comes to shove, you're a team. I'll usually throw in background story to make this cohesiveness absolute, I don't have time for PC killing each other, I'm trying to run a game where all my players have fun, obviously if one kills another, one of two isn't having fun now is he/she?
If you ARE going to have an NPC infiltrate the group, best be to get them into trouble and NOT to have them killed. Having them killed from the inside by a traitor is shitty. It's supposed to be THEIR story, not the story of how clever the NPCs are.
Personally, since I run in a 4 person crew, infiltrating would be rather difficult. We don't trust anyone except each other and I have an armade of spells to sniff out a traitor and yes, I will not hesitate to use one or all of them because that's why Monkey gave me magic, to use it.
*****
Strange man meets with team, steps out of shadows.
Legs is scanning him 7 shades of radar from the truck.
Nova draws two pistols, covers him and sends a picture of his face to Gauge.
Gauge is already sending agents everywhere looking for a match.
I will speak with him.
<insert amazing schpeel here for wanting to join us and us actually considering this>
Kong: Well it sounds good to me! Just one more thing and you can join us!
Agent: What thing is that?
Kong: I'm gonna cast compel truth, you won't resist and then I'll ask if you have alterior motives for joining us or if you were sent by someone, cool?
Agent: Uhhhhh I don't know how I feel about you casting spells on me like that.
Kong: You want to join us? I'm the mage around these parts. Be really hard for you to work with us if you don't trust me and my magic.
Agent: Errrrrrr
Kong: Would you like a 5 second headstart?
Nova: I should warn you I started counting 4 seconds ago.
Not really conceivable for mine or certainly many groups out there. We're all too paranoid.
Sunday
Firest, to all the "This wouldn't happen" "That wouldn't happen" folks. Pardon me, but behold the awesome power of my imagination. It's really easy to make up contrived situations that require anything you want including why or how a government agency could or would want to infiltrate a runner group. You don't agree with it or wouldn't do it yourself, great, you're entirely entitled but don't tell me someone else can't do it and explain it away perfectly rationaly.
However, I myself always demand party cohesiveness. You don't have to get along and you can get into fights and all that other fun stuff but when push comes to shove, you're a team. I'll usually throw in background story to make this cohesiveness absolute, I don't have time for PC killing each other, I'm trying to run a game where all my players have fun, obviously if one kills another, one of two isn't having fun now is he/she?
If you ARE going to have an NPC infiltrate the group, best be to get them into trouble and NOT to have them killed. Having them killed from the inside by a traitor is shitty. It's supposed to be THEIR story, not the story of how clever the NPCs are.
Personally, since I run in a 4 person crew, infiltrating would be rather difficult. We don't trust anyone except each other and I have an armade of spells to sniff out a traitor and yes, I will not hesitate to use one or all of them because that's why Monkey gave me magic, to use it.
*****
Strange man meets with team, steps out of shadows.
Legs is scanning him 7 shades of radar from the truck.
Nova draws two pistols, covers him and sends a picture of his face to Gauge.
Gauge is already sending agents everywhere looking for a match.
I will speak with him.
<insert amazing schpeel here for wanting to join us and us actually considering this>
Kong: Well it sounds good to me! Just one more thing and you can join us!
Agent: What thing is that?
Kong: I'm gonna cast compel truth, you won't resist and then I'll ask if you have alterior motives for joining us or if you were sent by someone, cool?
Agent: Uhhhhh I don't know how I feel about you casting spells on me like that.
Kong: You want to join us? I'm the mage around these parts. Be really hard for you to work with us if you don't trust me and my magic.
Agent: Errrrrrr
Kong: Would you like a 5 second headstart?
Nova: I should warn you I started counting 4 seconds ago.
Not really conceivable for mine or certainly many groups out there. We're all too paranoid.
Sunday
| QUOTE (Sunday_Gamer) |
| I don't have time for PC killing each other, I'm trying to run a game where all my players have fun, obviously if one kills another, one of two isn't having fun now is he/she? |
This is not obvious.
| QUOTE |
| Pardon me, but behold the awesome power of my imagination. |
There you go. The idea works for some people and not for others. Seems like a couple of the arguing individuals here are arguing from the same horse to me.
| QUOTE |
| I'm trying to run a game where all my players have fun, obviously if one kills another, one of two isn't having fun now is he/she? |
Not necessarily true; certainly not obvious. I've been running games for about 16 years now, and many of the groups I've GMd have been perfectly happy being groups where one may kill another at some point. I've had one player have a real problem with this, and PC killing wasn't the actual problem; his personality and style of gaming clashed with another player's. I tried hard for along time to accommodate* both of them, but they got to be too much for each other; neither one plays now. But back to the subject; the killing of another PC depends very much on the group and how they feel. It might not work for you or your group, but it does for others.
| QUOTE |
| best be to get them into trouble and NOT to have them killed. |
I agree that this would probably be best; not because it's shitty, or it's the player's story (it's also the GM's story as well, which includes the NPCs), but because if you kill them, how can you keep screwing with them?
| QUOTE |
| Personally, since I run in a 4 person crew, infiltrating would be rather difficult. We don't trust anyone except each other and I have an armade of spells to sniff out a traitor and yes, I will not hesitate to use one or all of them because that's why Monkey gave me magic, to use it. |
And that's cool for you. Just two weeks ago, I ran DNA/DOA (interesting adventure BTW). I normally have five players, but one of them has missed out on the first four runs due to work but he made it finally for this one. We brought his character in, and the others accepted him. No real questions, no magical screening, no background checks with contacts; nothing. Some groups just aren't as paranoid as they should be, and at some point in time, I think I'm obligated to enforce the atmosphere of SR by using this acceptance against them.
Wow every one is going to work here, I like to thank you all for your input on the subject.
| QUOTE (danzig138 @ Jun 9 2004, 12:09 PM) | ||
And that's cool for you. Just two weeks ago, I ran DNA/DOA (interesting adventure BTW). I normally have five players, but one of them has missed out on the first four runs due to work but he made it finally for this one. We brought his character in, and the others accepted him. No real questions, no magical screening, no background checks with contacts; nothing. Some groups just aren't as paranoid as they should be, and at some point in time, I think I'm obligated to enforce the atmosphere of SR by using this acceptance against them. |
This could be unconscious OoC acting, you know. They know it's a PC coming in, so they don't hassle him too much. NPCs they'd probably hassle a bit more, or at least be more suspicous of. One way you could use this to screw with their heads is to "recruit" a friend, have him bring in a PC with Dark Secret or Amnesia or something and have him run the others through hell. They'll be sure to suspect new PCs (and, probably, NPCs as well) ever after.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| This could be unconscious OoC acting, you know. They know it's a PC coming in, so they don't hassle him too much. |
Yeah, I figure it's that. happens every time, every game, for years now. And more than once, I have done something similiar with a PC infiltrator, and they still accept anyone played by not-me easily. They just can't seem to learn.
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Infiltrating a team of SRs gets you two things, and Jack just left town. |
That's not true at all. Law enforcement relies heavily on high visibility cases as deterance for other potential criminals. Of course no force can stop every single crime if everyone wantd to be a criminal. But going to jail is a deterant for a good number of people who wouldn't be so nice otherwise. Shadowrunning is no different. If people know that police are actively hunting SR's, quite a few more teens are gonna go to school and become a wage slave rather than risk 'running and prison. Without the risk of prison, the number of shadowrunners, and all the associated violence and chaos, balloons. Violence and chaos are bad for business,
This will have little effect on a group, who knows what they are doin is illegal, hell thats why they play. But to say that law enforcement gains nothing from hunting SR's is plain wrong.
Except that a large majority of shadowruns occur on extraterritorial property which LS has no jurisdiction on. It's no the same as organized crime, ext. A SR can have an entire career while doing nothing illegal on metroplex property.
You mean aside from the cyberware, military-grade magic, heavy weapons and the fact that they could be millionaires with no reported income?
If they really wanna bust someone, there's always a way. Who do you think putting Capone away scared more, minor tax evaders or mob bosses?
If they really wanna bust someone, there's always a way. Who do you think putting Capone away scared more, minor tax evaders or mob bosses?
Punishment as a deterrent to others isn't as effective as all that.
Primarily because very few criminals ever think they will get caught or even stop to consider the consequences of their actions.
But the current US prison model continues to apply negative reinforcement in an attempt to influence self-corrective behaviors.
-Siege
Primarily because very few criminals ever think they will get caught or even stop to consider the consequences of their actions.
But the current US prison model continues to apply negative reinforcement in an attempt to influence self-corrective behaviors.
-Siege
and since there's over 2 million prisoners in the US now, enough that if they were all in the same place it would be around the 4th largest city proper in the US... It AINT WORKING.
2 million prisoners out of 250-300 million american citizens. That's a little less than 1 percent. 99% effectiveness tends to count as 'working'
You consider having 1 out of 100 people in the US incarcerated working? That rate is far, far from good.
Oh yeah! We're doing a bang up job! second only to Russia! in highest prison population per capita!
About 6 times higher than the UK.
Oh yeah! We're doing a bang up job! second only to Russia! in highest prison population per capita!
About 6 times higher than the UK.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| You consider having 1 out of 100 people in the US incarcerated working? That rate is far, far from good. Oh yeah! We're doing a bang up job! second only to Russia! in highest prison population per capita! About 6 times higher than the UK. |
And our prison system sucks.
The trouble with prisons is that the wrong people get stuck in there. I almost feel like quoting System of a Down...
But I won't because quoting pop culture on DS makes baby Jesus cry.
(assuming SOAD can be counted as pop culture, I know The Simpsons can)
Anyway.
| QUOTE (CoalHeart @ Jun 17 2004, 02:19 PM) |
| 2 million prisoners out of 250-300 million american citizens. That's a little less than 1 percent. 99% effectiveness tends to count as 'working' |
Ah, but you are forgetting the other 6-7 million people on parole or probation who also live under the thumb of the correctional system.
I'm not forgetting, that's why I said "prisoners" =)
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| You consider having 1 out of 100 people in the US incarcerated working? That rate is far, far from good. |
Maybe I look too much into the optimistic side of things, but...
I personally think it's good. But then again I also vote for reducing prison population by forcing prisoners to brutally fight and kill eachother in gladitorial combat on PayPerView tv.
You're still not looking at the big picture. 99 % of all americans are 'Good' people. So the majority wins. Screw that 1 % they're not adding to the moral fabric, or prosperity of this country.
What I do think we need are better laws. Prisons themselves work fine. The laws themselves need work.
Er.... No Don't get on my case about this Political opinons shouldn't be posted on boards because it's massive flame bait.
Now if they could only make Windows work 99% of the time that would be a miracle.
So anyways Back on topic.
'Punishing' your players for being sloppy is a good thing. It reminds them to be more professional. But always give them an out. Turn sides, snitch on a J, take some sort of suicide job.
Just like all things in life, you take the good with the bad... and that bad sometimes feels so good.
The last tabletop game I was in managed to meet about once a month for 2-4 hours. Over half the original players changed characters. 3 new players came and went.
What does this have to do with anything? We didn't have time to grill every new character. We would never have gotten anywhere. No one was interested in exploring this facet of the game. Were we sloppy? Probably. But when there was legwork that pertained to the task at hand, we were pretty thorough. It could be assumed we were as thorough in checking out the new characters, but didn't roll it out. In other words, checking out the new guy was done behind the scenes.
Every time I see a GM pull some little trick that only succeeds because of suspension of disbelief, that suspension of disbelief is gone. From then to eternity, every time the situation is repeated the game grinds to a halt while the players make sure they don't get screwed again.
In a current PbP game, I would be making checks about every scene change and in between, but how long do you do it before it becomes tedious and a distraction? Do you make a list of things your character always does and checks? What if the GM uses that info to put you in a situation where you obviously wouldn't do something and then punishes you because in the same post they explain you already did it? There are too many ways for a GM to make the game interesting without resorting to punishinmg the players for trying to let the game move along.
What does this have to do with anything? We didn't have time to grill every new character. We would never have gotten anywhere. No one was interested in exploring this facet of the game. Were we sloppy? Probably. But when there was legwork that pertained to the task at hand, we were pretty thorough. It could be assumed we were as thorough in checking out the new characters, but didn't roll it out. In other words, checking out the new guy was done behind the scenes.
Every time I see a GM pull some little trick that only succeeds because of suspension of disbelief, that suspension of disbelief is gone. From then to eternity, every time the situation is repeated the game grinds to a halt while the players make sure they don't get screwed again.
In a current PbP game, I would be making checks about every scene change and in between, but how long do you do it before it becomes tedious and a distraction? Do you make a list of things your character always does and checks? What if the GM uses that info to put you in a situation where you obviously wouldn't do something and then punishes you because in the same post they explain you already did it? There are too many ways for a GM to make the game interesting without resorting to punishinmg the players for trying to let the game move along.
| QUOTE |
| You're still not looking at the big picture. 99 % of all americans are 'Good' people. So the majority wins. Screw that 1 % they're not adding to the moral fabric, or prosperity of this country. |
Er wrong. 6 1/2% are on probation, in prison, work release, ect, somehow in trouble with the law, and that's only those who have been caught. the around 1% are those actually IN PRISON. We are seconf on earth for most imprisoned people per capita. That means globally, we're freaking horrible.
| QUOTE |
| What I do think we need are better laws. Prisons themselves work fine. The laws themselves need work. |
The current laws aren't stopping or preventing or deterring squat. Laws don't do anything when they are not properly enforced. Pass more laws when we already have the secong highest rate of incarceration on earth? obviously that isnt working so far for us.
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