Can anyone explain why a claymore is listed as a polearm ? Isn't it a really big, 2-handed sword or did I miss something ? Wouldn't it be an edged weapon instead ?
I am wondering what exactly *is* a rattan stick to do *serious* stun damage on unarmored targets. The description says its a light stick that weights very little. Isn't serious stun damage overrated then ? It seems quite a lot to me...
thanks
Full Version: rattan stick and claymore
| QUOTE |
| I am wondering what exactly *is* a rattan stick to do *serious* stun damage on unarmored targets. The description says its a light stick that weights very little. Isn't serious stun damage overrated then ? It seems quite a lot to me... |
It's used in south east asian style captial punishment. Made of strong bamboo fibers or equivalent; useless against armor but will easily cut into bare skin. Micheal Fay had a run in with one.
Rattan sticks are typically made out of rattan, not bamboo 
That being said, they're seriously nasty to get hit with.
~J
That being said, they're seriously nasty to get hit with.
~J
ive got a pair of the sticks from a filipino friend, incredibly light, even more incredibly hard, seems like they would hurt to get hit with 30-36" long id say, 2-3" in diam i think (bad with measurements)
Claymores are Scottish two-handed swords, typically around 5'-5.5' long, 4-5 pounds, with 20" or so of hilt, about the same of ricasso, and long, slightly angled quillions with distinctive quatrafoil ends. They're not actually pole arms, but they handle similarly enough that lumping them into the same skill isn't terribly unreasonable. It makes a lot more sense than the division between Edged and Clubs, anyway.
Rattan is a grass, much like bamboo, but with a solid, fibrous core. They make patio furniture out of it. The SCA uses it to simulate swords and suchlike, because the weight and balance can be made pretty close to that of steel weapons, it's softer and more flexible than hardwoods, and it "broomsticks" on failure rather than breaking and producing sharp jagged ends.
Rattan sticks doing S or even M damage is completely, totally, utterly ridiculous. At fighter practice every week, I get hit repeatedly with rattan sticks wielded by large men who are very good at using them. Some of them are up to 7.5' long and wielded two-handed. I occasionally walk away with a bruise sufficiently painful that I'd be willing to call it L Stun, but more typically it's nothing more than a minor bruise or two that I don't even notice unless I'm looking for them. While I do have the benefit of armor, I simply don't, by any reasonable standard, have the Body dice to soak M blows that consistently... and even that's assuming that my opponent didn't manage to stage it up at all. And I have been hit in spots where I have no armor at all on a number of occasions... it's painful, but not seriously damaging.
Rattan is a grass, much like bamboo, but with a solid, fibrous core. They make patio furniture out of it. The SCA uses it to simulate swords and suchlike, because the weight and balance can be made pretty close to that of steel weapons, it's softer and more flexible than hardwoods, and it "broomsticks" on failure rather than breaking and producing sharp jagged ends.
Rattan sticks doing S or even M damage is completely, totally, utterly ridiculous. At fighter practice every week, I get hit repeatedly with rattan sticks wielded by large men who are very good at using them. Some of them are up to 7.5' long and wielded two-handed. I occasionally walk away with a bruise sufficiently painful that I'd be willing to call it L Stun, but more typically it's nothing more than a minor bruise or two that I don't even notice unless I'm looking for them. While I do have the benefit of armor, I simply don't, by any reasonable standard, have the Body dice to soak M blows that consistently... and even that's assuming that my opponent didn't manage to stage it up at all. And I have been hit in spots where I have no armor at all on a number of occasions... it's painful, but not seriously damaging.
Claymore gets listed as a polearm because it's a big bladed two-handed weapon. Edged weapons would get a bit too powerful if they could include such weapons.
Rattan sticks and balisong knives (AKA butterfly knives) are the tradtional weapons of Escrima, the Philipino martial art. It's highly effective-- Philipinos armed with rattan sticks and knives fought off Cortez, whose Conquistadors had plate mail and muskets. Later, they fought off the US Marines with those same sticks and knives. (True story-- why are US Marines called leathernecks? Because they all had to wear leather neck guards at all times in the Philipines; their throats were getting cut at a fearsome rate.)
The sticks I'm familiar with are about 18 inches long and maybe an inch across. What Slamm-O's describing sounds more like training sticks-- those are wider and heavier, sometimes filled with lead. People train with the heavier sticks, so when they use their real ones, they can really make them fly. The Escrima sticks are different than the rattan weapons John is describing, since they rely on speed and explosiveness instead of blunt force trauma.
Yes, rattan sticks might not sound like much. But remember, those sticks have beaten off some of the strongest fighting forces the world had to offer.
Rattan sticks and balisong knives (AKA butterfly knives) are the tradtional weapons of Escrima, the Philipino martial art. It's highly effective-- Philipinos armed with rattan sticks and knives fought off Cortez, whose Conquistadors had plate mail and muskets. Later, they fought off the US Marines with those same sticks and knives. (True story-- why are US Marines called leathernecks? Because they all had to wear leather neck guards at all times in the Philipines; their throats were getting cut at a fearsome rate.)
The sticks I'm familiar with are about 18 inches long and maybe an inch across. What Slamm-O's describing sounds more like training sticks-- those are wider and heavier, sometimes filled with lead. People train with the heavier sticks, so when they use their real ones, they can really make them fly. The Escrima sticks are different than the rattan weapons John is describing, since they rely on speed and explosiveness instead of blunt force trauma.
Yes, rattan sticks might not sound like much. But remember, those sticks have beaten off some of the strongest fighting forces the world had to offer.
Perhaps the SR designers were thinking of the solid wood swords used in practice of certain Japanese sword diciplines and such, instead of rattan.
[edit]
Ahh, bokken, that's the name of them.
A quick google search so you guys can see what I'm referring to if you're not entirely sure
http://www.karatedepot.com/wp-ke-06.html
[edit]
Ahh, bokken, that's the name of them.
A quick google search so you guys can see what I'm referring to if you're not entirely sure
http://www.karatedepot.com/wp-ke-06.html
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| (True story-- why are US Marines called leathernecks? Because they all had to wear leather neck guards at all times in the Philipines; their throats were getting cut at a fearsome rate.) |
| QUOTE |
| Now accepted by Webster as a synonym for Marine, the term "Leatherneck" was derived from a leather stock once worn around the neck by both American and British Marines--and soldiers also. Beginning in 1798, "one stock of black leather and clasp" was issued to each U. S. Marine annually. This stiff leather collar, fastened by two buckles at the back, measured nearly three and a half inches high, and it prevented the neck movement necessary for sighting along a barrel. It supposedly improved military bearing, by forcing the chin high, although General George F. Elliott, recalling its use after the Civil War, said it made the wearers appear "like geese looking for rain." The stock was dropped as an article of Marine uniform in 1872, after surviving through the uniform changes of 1833, 1839, and 1859. But by then it was a part of American vocabulary, a word preserved, like so many words, beyond its original meaning. |
| QUOTE (John Campbell) |
| Claymores are Scottish two-handed swords, typically around 5'-5.5' long, 4-5 pounds, with 20" or so of hilt, |
Actually, the length depends on who it was made for. A correct claymore is measured the same way a rafting paddle is, you put the base on the ground and the tip comes to your chin.
Not that it really matters, but just wanted to clarify a bit.
Rattan sticks are very dangerous. They are used in the modern version of flogging here in Singapore. The prison docter is on standby every time a prisoner is scheduled to be caned, and the prisoner is, at most, only caned once every week until the sentence is carried out fully. I have heard stories of people simply being unable to control their bowels after being caned with a ratten stick, though i've never seen it myself.
One thing Ive learned about hand to hand combat is that you might get hit, with fists or nunchaku or whatever, and it hurts but you can walk away. But if the guy you were fighting really *wanted* to permanently hurt you, the damage would accure fast. Ive been hit by wooden poles, fists, kicks, elbows etc and worst I ever got was the wind knocked outta me or a bruise. But at full go these are the same moves that break concrete, break bones, and can kill due to collapsed windpipes etc. Rattan sticks doing serious, on par with being hit by a shotgun, might be a bit much, but Id certainly class them above Light. And perhaps against someone without armor (naked, since most SRs wear armored clothing) maybe they are that dangerous. Its one of the things Ive not been hit with =)
| QUOTE (John Campbell) |
| I occasionally walk away with a bruise sufficiently painful that I'd be willing to call it L Stun, but more typically it's nothing more than a minor bruise or two that I don't even notice unless I'm looking for them. While I do have the benefit of armor, I simply don't, by any reasonable standard, have the Body dice to soak M blows that consistently... and even that's assuming that my opponent didn't manage to stage it up at all. |
You don't just have the benefit of armor, you've got double the benefit of armor. You don't just have Body dice, you've got Body dice and Combat Pool.
And if you find that your bruises frequently go unnoticed, I think you've got more Body than you give yourself credit for.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Philipinos armed with rattan sticks and knives fought off Cortez, whose Conquistadors had plate mail and muskets. Later, they fought off the US Marines with those same sticks and knives. |
I was reading Cryptonomicon, by Neal Stephenson, and he mentioned something about the .45 round coming into common use by soldiers in WWII solely because nothing smaller would stop the damn Philipinos. Struck me as funny at the time. I can't remember if that passage was written from the author's POV or a character.
| QUOTE (Hasaku) | ||
I was reading Cryptonomicon, by Neal Stephenson, and he mentioned something about the .45 round coming into common use by soldiers in WWII solely because nothing smaller would stop the damn Philipinos. Struck me as funny at the time. I can't remember if that passage was written from the author's POV or a character. |
I'm sure someone will post a more historical reference, but the Filipinos used to wrap their bellies in gauze, keeping the body intact long enough for the nut with the knife to reach an officer and stab him to death.
The .45 was introduced as being powerful enough to cause enough damage that the gauze trick was no longer (as) effective.
-Siege
There is (was?) a psycological disorder 'amok' that was native to the Philippines, and sort of murderous fury some what similar to the European 'breserk' but with different social triggers (iirc shame and or anger, high temperature (more prevalent during hot months), and usually triggered by a 'minor insult'...). Usually an period of brooding, then (with the 'trigger condition') an extremly violent outburst, sometimes followed by difficulty in remembering the details of the outburst. During the occupation of the Philippines, I'd imagine that 'minor insults' were pretty easy to come by...
Legend has it that amok Filipinos could have an entire revolver (the 36 caliber revolver in use as sidearm before the adocption of the 1911) emptied into them and still have enough oomph left to kill a few people...
Legend has it that amok Filipinos could have an entire revolver (the 36 caliber revolver in use as sidearm before the adocption of the 1911) emptied into them and still have enough oomph left to kill a few people...
I also think the making rattan sticks do 10S damage is a way to reflect the "skill" associated with the use of the sticks in the rules. That's also my explination for why a katana does more damage than other swords according to the rules. I'm a katana-phile, I love them, own them, practice with them, go to class about them, and I simply can't understand why they would increase the damage compared to other, similar weapons.
But that's ok. Last night, in preperation for my Shadowrun: St. Louis game, my rigger made a Eurocar Westwind that for short sprints can do over 500 mph. I've heard about the weird speed rules, only now do I get it.
Back on Topic!
But that's ok. Last night, in preperation for my Shadowrun: St. Louis game, my rigger made a Eurocar Westwind that for short sprints can do over 500 mph. I've heard about the weird speed rules, only now do I get it.
Back on Topic!
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| There is (was?) a psycological disorder 'amok' that was native to the Philippines, and sort of murderous fury some what similar to the European 'breserk' but with different social triggers (iirc shame and or anger, high temperature (more prevalent during hot months), and usually triggered by a 'minor insult'...). Usually an period of brooding, then (with the 'trigger condition') an extremly violent outburst, sometimes followed by difficulty in remembering the details of the outburst. During the occupation of the Philippines, I'd imagine that 'minor insults' were pretty easy to come by... Legend has it that amok Filipinos could have an entire revolver (the 36 caliber revolver in use as sidearm before the adocption of the 1911) emptied into them and still have enough oomph left to kill a few people... |
Similar, in some respects, to the Japanese banzai or Rebel yell.
It was a self-inspired emotional state that enabled the person to achieve said feats. In the case of the Moros, it was a religious frenzy.
Insofar as I am aware, there has been no definitive study linking it to physiological disorder (per se).
-Siege
The Katana does more damage because it is sharper than European-style swords. A stroke from a katana could cut an armored samurai in half, cutting right through armor and bone. A western sword could cut through armor, and into flesh, but would generally halt once it reached bone. If you look in CC, the Ares monosword has the same power as a katana, for the same reason.
I had a chance to get my hands on the German equivalent of a claymore (think 8.5 feet of steel with 6 feet of it sharp, and four or five widgets sticking out along the sides to prevent over-penetration). What's neat about them is that you often hold such swords both above and below the hand-guard. In effect, then, one totes such a blade around more like a spear than like a sword.
Remember, only trolls can swing such swords around in heroic, over-the-head manner. Mostly, claymores and other (exceptionally) long swords were used as anti-cavalry weapons, giving foot soldiers parity with mounted threats. In that role, such swords really do funciton as polearms (or can-openers, as I prefer to think of them), making the weapons grouping make sense.
Remember, only trolls can swing such swords around in heroic, over-the-head manner. Mostly, claymores and other (exceptionally) long swords were used as anti-cavalry weapons, giving foot soldiers parity with mounted threats. In that role, such swords really do funciton as polearms (or can-openers, as I prefer to think of them), making the weapons grouping make sense.
Those german two-handed swords you're familiar with? Yes, they're more anti-cavalry. A Scottish Claymore however can be used quite effectively in hand-to-hand combat by a person of normal size who is trained in it's use.
It's one of those things I'm forever looking for, but years ago I was watching a history of the sword thing on the History Channel and they were talking with some guys who were taking surviving medieval swordsmanship manuals and recreating the fighting styles of the time. One of them dealt with the use of the claymore. They had some clips of the guys going through some fighting routines. It certainly wasn't traditional swordplay that was being used with the weapon, and it explains why someone would class it under Polarms/Staffs since it was more akin to that, but the fact remains it was a very effective style.
I suppose those two-handed german swords could be used in a similar fashion, but as far as I'm aware they were developed for anti-cavalry support purposes. And those weren't even 8.5 feet long. I have a feeling you were looking at more of a ceremonial blade than anything else. Although I suppose they could have made something like that to be used on the battlefield, it seems a bit too large.
It's one of those things I'm forever looking for, but years ago I was watching a history of the sword thing on the History Channel and they were talking with some guys who were taking surviving medieval swordsmanship manuals and recreating the fighting styles of the time. One of them dealt with the use of the claymore. They had some clips of the guys going through some fighting routines. It certainly wasn't traditional swordplay that was being used with the weapon, and it explains why someone would class it under Polarms/Staffs since it was more akin to that, but the fact remains it was a very effective style.
I suppose those two-handed german swords could be used in a similar fashion, but as far as I'm aware they were developed for anti-cavalry support purposes. And those weren't even 8.5 feet long. I have a feeling you were looking at more of a ceremonial blade than anything else. Although I suppose they could have made something like that to be used on the battlefield, it seems a bit too large.
The trick with using a giant can-opener (like a claymore, or any really big ass sword) is balance, reach and leverage. The blade gives you reach, so you can use it to hit people farther away. The blade gives you leverage, when you catch on something and need to rip. The blade can be heavy as fuck, which is why you need to be careful to balance it with your own weight, so you don't go ass-over-head every time you take a swing.
Conner: I just recently saw this very show, within the few months or so. Its funny, becuase I have yet to be able to find anything else even remotely related to it since then, but I've been trying to explain it to a coworker.
It was actually pretty interesting, as I saw it they did quite a few very clever things with their swords, but the biggest sticking point is I swear I remember watching them even use it revesed to treat the grip (nerds need to spring to point out the correct terminology here, cause I don't care) like a smashing hammer.
Am I completely out of it, or was this part of the methods they used?
| QUOTE (Connor) |
| Perhaps the SR designers were thinking of the solid wood swords used in practice of certain Japanese sword diciplines and such, instead of rattan. [edit] Ahh, bokken, that's the name of them. A quick google search so you guys can see what I'm referring to if you're not entirely sure http://www.karatedepot.com/wp-ke-06.html |
I'd much rather get clocked with a bokken than with rattan sticks. Have you ever been hit on the head by rattan sticks? They REALLY, REALLY **HURT**!
S stun is entirely appropriate for representing a flurry of strikes from rattan sticks.
| QUOTE (Beast of Revolutions) |
| The Katana does more damage because it is sharper than European-style swords. A stroke from a katana could cut an armored samurai in half, cutting right through armor and bone. A western sword could cut through armor, and into flesh, but would generally halt once it reached bone. If you look in CC, the Ares monosword has the same power as a katana, for the same reason. |
Actually Japanese swords had a problem with breakage especially when the blade was pulled out of an armored torso. If you read "Heike Monogatari" sword breakage is a very common occurance.
It requires a lot of skill to cut with a katana and not damage the katana itself if you're talking about slicing muscle and bone.
I've literally never heard of an armored samurai being cut entirely in half by a katana, not even in the heroic legends of Heike Monogatari. Decapitated, yes. Cut in half? No.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| I'd much rather get clocked with a bokken than with rattan sticks. Have you ever been hit on the head by rattan sticks? They REALLY, REALLY **HURT**! |
Of course it hurts ... But I would most definitely not chose a hit with a rattan stick over a hit with a bokken ...
Or why do you think that Kendo practitioners wear that rather strong body armor and that helmet?
A bokken can easily be used to kill people. Even good old Musashi did some of his recorded duels with bokken and killed his oppenents
| QUOTE |
| S stun is entirely appropriate for representing a flurry of strikes from rattan sticks. |
I'd rather go with M ... but then again ... SR has several weapons and gimmicks that portray supernatural statistics and for a RPG that still has the "Fantasy"-touch that's perfectly fine with me ...
| QUOTE (Cochise) | ||||
Of course it hurts ... But I would most definitely not chose a hit with a rattan stick over a hit with a bokken ... Or why do you think that Kendo practitioners wear that rather strong body armor and that helmet? A bokken can easily be used to kill people. Even good old Musashi did some of his recorded duels with bokken and killed his oppenents
I'd rather go with M ... but then again ... SR has several weapons and gimmicks that portray supernatural statistics and for a RPG that still has the "Fantasy"-touch that's perfectly fine with me ... |
Well, I believe that in sanctioned full contact stickfighting tournaments in the phillipines the contestants also wear heavy padding.
See, this is the thing about a bokken. A bokken can break my bones if it hits me hard but it won't *hurt* as much as a rapid flaying with rattan sticks. If I'm unarmed, I am more likely to be able to take a solid bone-cracking hit from a bokken but keep fighting than I am if I take a flurry of excruciating skin-splitting strikes from ratan sticks.
Furthermore, because of its length and weight a bokken is a bit easier to deal with in terms of defense and avoidance than a shorter lighter bludgeon. Furthermore, whereas a bokken would be pretty akward to use in the clinch, escrimadors have a few tricks for clinch range with their rattan sticks including stick chokes, stick-assisted joint locks, and butt-slams to the face. Lastly, becuse the escrima sticks are so light and fast and the bokken requires 2 hands and is big and heavy, it would be much easier to entangle or disarm the bokken than it would be to entangle or disarm the escrima sticks. If I had the choice between having to fight an escrimador with 2 escrima sticks or a kenjutsu guy with 1 bokken, I'd much rather go unarmed against the kenjutsu guy.
The bokken may be more likely to break bones and cause deep bruising but its a lot easier to deal with for the unarmed defender than rattan sticks which are going to be moving much faster and which are more dangerous at clinch range.
I guess if I wanted to translate that into physical terms I'd give the bokken something like STR+3 L physical and I'd keep the ratan sticks with the S stun after the flechette upgrade.
| QUOTE (Cochise) |
| Or why do you think that Kendo practitioners wear that rather strong body armor and that helmet? |
Not for any reason even remotely connected to a bokkan. Bokkan are used for prearranged drills only, never for sparring. They wear the bogu to protect against the shinai, which are deliberately designed to hurt as little as possible and can still, in expert hands, deal out quite a bit of pain and death.
~J
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Similar, in some respects, to the Japanese banzai or Rebel yell. It was a self-inspired emotional state that enabled the person to achieve said feats. In the case of the Moros, it was a religious frenzy. Insofar as I am aware, there has been no definitive study linking it to physiological disorder (per se). -Siege |
It appears in the DSM, that makes it a mental disorder
| QUOTE (gfen) |
| Conner: I just recently saw this very show, within the few months or so. Its funny, becuase I have yet to be able to find anything else even remotely related to it since then, but I've been trying to explain it to a coworker. It was actually pretty interesting, as I saw it they did quite a few very clever things with their swords, but the biggest sticking point is I swear I remember watching them even use it revesed to treat the grip (nerds need to spring to point out the correct terminology here, cause I don't care) like a smashing hammer. Am I completely out of it, or was this part of the methods they used? |
That is EXACTLY the same thing I saw. Do you remember the name of the show/episode? I'd love to get a dvd of it if they offer one...
| QUOTE (Beast of Revolutions) |
| The Katana does more damage because it is sharper than European-style swords. A stroke from a katana could cut an armored samurai in half, cutting right through armor and bone. A western sword could cut through armor, and into flesh, but would generally halt once it reached bone. |
For starters, there's an entirely different style of cutting with a katana than with a European sword. A Katana is pulled, a sword is pushed, so you end up with different cuts, but no less damage.
A European sword was used much like a sharpened baseball bat. It didn't cut bone, it shattered it. Moreover, most katana could not cut through laquered armor as easily as you seem to make it sound, otherwise, why wear armor at all? Swordsman practice on tamashigira bundles, rice straw wrapped around bamboo and soaked. While a katana in most cases would make a cleaner cut, a European sword would just as easily maul the bundle, splintering the bamboo. It's the same level of damage, just different ways of inflicting it. That's why I don't understand the damage difference inherent in the rules. Mauled or sliced, still dead.
I've been clocked by them all. A bokken across the forearms (owch!), a shinai to the chest (the tip fell off, leaving shallow puncture wounds and bamboo spinters!) and rattan sticks to the head (two minutes spent wondering when the sky became green and fuzzy).
Now, these situations aren't perfect comparisons by a long shot, but those Escrima sticks can deal out a lot of damage in short order.
Now, these situations aren't perfect comparisons by a long shot, but those Escrima sticks can deal out a lot of damage in short order.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| See, this is the thing about a bokken. A bokken can break my bones if it hits me hard but it won't *hurt* as much as a rapid flaying with rattan sticks. |
I guess that depends on individual pain perception. The broken bones I had so far did *hurt* a lot, because they weren't simple fractures but always included splittering and / or open wounds to a certain extend.
There was only one thing that *hurt* even more and left me with the wish to die ... and that had something to do with kidney stones ...
| QUOTE |
| Furthermore, because of its length and weight a bokken is a bit easier to deal with in terms of defense and avoidance than a shorter lighter bludgeon. |
Which wasn't the thing I was talking about
I still wouldn't prefer an actual hit with a bokken over a hit with rattan sticks ...
I'd certainly prefer a single thwack from an escrima stick to a single strike from a bokkan. That starts getting reversed once we start talking about one to three seconds worth of strikes from each.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) | ||
It appears in the DSM, that makes it a mental disorder |
I'll have to look that up -- I was under the impression that if a patient could enter the state voluntarily, it wasn't a disorder per se.
Interesting.
-Siege
It was added with the DSM-IV under culture-{something}-syndromes...
[edit]
I'll had that the DSM can be a great help for character creation since it can tell you how to be 'properly crazy' rather that hollywood crazy.
[/edit]
[edit]
I'll had that the DSM can be a great help for character creation since it can tell you how to be 'properly crazy' rather that hollywood crazy.
[/edit]
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| It was added with the DSM-IV under culture-{something}-syndromes... |
I wonder if they've done a similar study for the nuts who paint their bellies and dance in sub-zero weather at Football games.
-Siege
Getting back tot he Claymore, I've had the opportunity to wield one of these fine weapons. (The Highland games can be so educational)
I'm by no means a Troll, nor above average in strength, hell I'd be pressed to claim average strength. I can wield a Claymore, properly balanced, one handed. The blade is as balanced with the hilt as any decent sword you can imagine. It felt light and was easy to move. Actually, I think the guy giving the demonstration was surprised I had little trouble.
I'm by no means a Troll, nor above average in strength, hell I'd be pressed to claim average strength. I can wield a Claymore, properly balanced, one handed. The blade is as balanced with the hilt as any decent sword you can imagine. It felt light and was easy to move. Actually, I think the guy giving the demonstration was surprised I had little trouble.
you have to remember how abstract melee rules for SR are. the serious stun from a rattan stick wouldn't be from one hit, but a quick successive beating like a drum roll. A bokken would be a single hit. I've been hit with a bokken, and yes, it hurt. A rattan, though, I imagine would be like several quick slaps, almost like from a small whip. I've seen it used (not on a real person), but the rat-a-tat-tat sound didn't sound pleasant.
For years I've wanted to make some house rules that would make hand to hand combat more realistic. But every time I sit down to make something I realize that I've taken upon myself a nearly sisyphisusian task and give up after maybe an hour of thought.
The basic difficulty comes from the dichotomy between stun damage and physical damage. If I break someone's arm with juji gatame and then break his other arm with the same technique, the guy is pretty much incapacitated, right? But he's not unconscious. Should he have stun damage or physical damage?
If you say physical damage, that gets more complicated because Unarmed Combat is only supposed to do stun damage for emptyhand attacks. Furthermore, if a freaking mace only does stun damage, surely emptyhand should never do physical, right?
The basic difficulty comes from the dichotomy between stun damage and physical damage. If I break someone's arm with juji gatame and then break his other arm with the same technique, the guy is pretty much incapacitated, right? But he's not unconscious. Should he have stun damage or physical damage?
If you say physical damage, that gets more complicated because Unarmed Combat is only supposed to do stun damage for emptyhand attacks. Furthermore, if a freaking mace only does stun damage, surely emptyhand should never do physical, right?
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| For years I've wanted to make some house rules that would make hand to hand combat more realistic. But every time I sit down to make something I realize that I've taken upon myself a nearly sisyphisusian task and give up after maybe an hour of thought. The basic difficulty comes from the dichotomy between stun damage and physical damage. If I break someone's arm with juji gatame and then break his other arm with the same technique, the guy is pretty much incapacitated, right? But he's not unconscious. Should he have stun damage or physical damage? If you say physical damage, that gets more complicated because Unarmed Combat is only supposed to do stun damage for emptyhand attacks. Furthermore, if a freaking mace only does stun damage, surely emptyhand should never do physical, right? |
I would have sworn that there was a section in either M&M or CC that added "Cause a wound effect" to the table of what you can do with a called shot, which would handle the situation you're talking about, but for the life of me I can't find it in either book. Does anyone remember what I'm talking about, or am I totally up in the air?
CC- Page 92: Combat maneuver Vicious Blow
(Synopsis: +1 to TN, deal physical damage.)
Assuming you have chosen a style which allows you to take weapon maneuvers, I would've guessed that breaking someone's arm is fairly vicious.
CC- Page 86 (Called shots in close combat)
Synopsis: Same rules followed as for ranged called shots (BBB- Page 114): Increase TN by 4 then either:
M&M- Page 126 discusses wound effects, but I can't find any reference to called shots affecting those (of course, a GM may rule that if you suffer stress after a called shot to the throat, your voice modulator is stuck in a loud Maria Mercurial voice- but it's not canon).
(Edited for Called shots/wound effects comment)
(Synopsis: +1 to TN, deal physical damage.)
Assuming you have chosen a style which allows you to take weapon maneuvers, I would've guessed that breaking someone's arm is fairly vicious.
CC- Page 86 (Called shots in close combat)
Synopsis: Same rules followed as for ranged called shots (BBB- Page 114): Increase TN by 4 then either:
- Increase damage level by 1
- Hit a specific part of a vehicle sized target (e.g. wheel)
M&M- Page 126 discusses wound effects, but I can't find any reference to called shots affecting those (of course, a GM may rule that if you suffer stress after a called shot to the throat, your voice modulator is stuck in a loud Maria Mercurial voice- but it's not canon).
(Edited for Called shots/wound effects comment)
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