With the major phenotype alteration possible in SOTA...
Is it possible for a human to have his arms lengthened to troll proportions to gain reach in combat?
Is it possible for a troll to further increase his reach?
Is it possible for a dwarf to lengthen his legs and gain the normal running multiplyer?
Is it possible for elf/ork/human/trolls to lengthen their legs to gain a multiplyer in running?
Is it possible to alter your arms and legs so you can run on all fours like those African Ghouls and gain X5 multiplyer?
Is it possible to secretly genetically modify someone without their knowlege? Repeated injections or food additives and the alteration takes much longer?
Is it possible to Cure SURGE?
Is it possible to Cause SURGE?
Is it possible to introduce some bug genes and have a (meta)human grow a full body hardened exoskeleton?
Is it possible to grow extra limbs?
Is it possible to alter your body so that it more readily accepts cyberware? (lower essence cost)
I'm sure there are a thousand more questions to be pondered. But this is a good start.
Full Version: 2064:Genetics and You
| QUOTE (CoalHeart) |
| Is it possible to Cure SURGE? Is it possible to Cause SURGE? |
These two are definite nos, for the same reasons given in SOTA that you can't change someone's metatype with phenotype alteration or make them Awakened. You could probably cause or remove SURGE-type effects, but they wouldn't have the same astral shadow interaction, and wouldn't be SURGE.
| QUOTE |
| Is it possible for a human to have his arms lengthened to troll proportions to gain reach in combat? Is it possible for a troll to further increase his reach? Is it possible for a dwarf to lengthen his legs and gain the normal running multiplyer? Is it possible for elf/ork/human/trolls to lengthen their legs to gain a multiplyer in running? Is it possible to alter your arms and legs so you can run on all fours like those African Ghouls and gain X5 multiplyer? |
Not by the way it's listed. you can turn one race into another, but by canon races cannot be combined, there are no half breeds. It's all or nothing. Thus I would not allow cross splicing for those specific effects, ultimately it's up to your GM since it isnt addressed. If your GM did allow it Those people would be instantly memorable and suffer a flaw related to memorabiliy and could not take blandness. Essentially most of the social penalties of a metavariant IMHO.
| QUOTE |
| Is it possible to secretly genetically modify someone without their knowlege? Repeated injections or food additives and the alteration takes much longer? |
No, the process takes months in a full body vat IIRC, with the subject unconscious.
| QUOTE |
| Is it possible to Cure SURGE? Is it possible to Cause SURGE? |
Edit: NO!
| QUOTE |
| Is it possible to introduce some bug genes and have a (meta)human grow a full body hardened exoskeleton? |
No. I have seen no canon recombinant genetics from those procedures.
| QUOTE |
| Is it possible to grow extra limbs? |
No, as even if you could your brain is not wored to do that, or will you wait 15 or so years for you to be competent with the new limbs?
| QUOTE |
| ssible to alter your body so that it more readily accepts cyberware? (lower essence cost) |
no.
| QUOTE |
| Is it possible to Cure SURGE? Is it possible to Cause SURGE? |
No. Really. We don't even know what genes cause SURGE.
aaah, awakened genetic shadows or some such.
What surprises me about this whole thing is that phenotypic alteration can't be done with some sort of viral vector. I guess I'm not clear on the months-in-a-tank thing; especially for something relatively simple like calcitonin. That's probably a pretty simple change, biologically, maybe even a gene for a single protein. Why can't you deliver that through a virus? We can almost do that TODAY.
| QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jun 17 2004, 11:32 AM) | ||
No, as even if you could your brain is not wored to do that, or will you wait 15 or so years for you to be competent with the new limbs? |
I'd agree no on the extra limbs, mostly because it's such an extreme phenotypic change; you'd have to majorly restructure the entire metahuman body for these new limbs to be even partially effective. However, if youcould there's no canon reason you couldn't learn to use the new limbs over the course of a few weeks of trainning. If it took 15 years to "learn" to use the new limb then it would take the same amount of time to "learn" to use any sort of DNI-controlled cyberware, which operate on the same basic principles.
(Edit): As for real-world examples, there are current analogues, although they're not really on the same level yet.
| QUOTE (Req) |
| What surprises me about this whole thing is that phenotypic alteration can't be done with some sort of viral vector. I guess I'm not clear on the months-in-a-tank thing; especially for something relatively simple like calcitonin. That's probably a pretty simple change, biologically, maybe even a gene for a single protein. Why can't you deliver that through a virus? We can almost do that TODAY. |
That's what I ment by being able to change someone slowly over months. Keep infecting them with a retrovirus setting up each stage of changes.
I was hoping to use it in a long term plot to bring down a head of the Yaks, by turning him from human into troll and he has no idea why.
| QUOTE (CoalHeart @ Jun 17 2004, 12:24 PM) |
| That's what I ment by being able to change someone slowly over months. Keep infecting them with a retrovirus setting up each stage of changes. I was hoping to use it in a long term plot to bring down a head of the Yaks, by turning him from human into troll and he has no idea why. |
The problem with that is that the genes required to effect that kind of change would be far too long and numerous to deliver with a viral vector. Also viruses have specific tissue tropisms- that is a given virus will preferentially infect only one or two closely related tissue types. To get the kind of systemic changes involved in goblinization you would need hundreds, if not thousands of specially designed virus strains each with a different cloned human gene (few of which would fit in a viral vector). The cost would be rediculous.
No on everything except:
| QUOTE |
| Is it possible to introduce some bug genes and have a (meta)human grow a full body hardened exoskeleton? |
Which is still a no; but you could give someone calcitonin or orthoskin to develop a chitin-like look.
Why wouldn't this stuff work?
I can understand the no surge because that relies on magic, but the other stuff all seems possible, prolly for a really high BI.
just my .002 -Y-
I can understand the no surge because that relies on magic, but the other stuff all seems possible, prolly for a really high BI.
just my .002 -Y-
Some of them may be physically possible, but keep in mind that ensuring the subject doesn't suffer massive health problems once they leave treatment is the real stumbling block of genetic alteration.
| QUOTE (Shellshock) |
| Why wouldn't this stuff work? I can understand the no surge because that relies on magic, but the other stuff all seems possible, prolly for a really high BI. |
Basically, because "Major Phenotypic alteration" doesn't allow for gaining any in-game advantages. It's primarily cosmetic.
what about the other kinds of alterations, would those work?
Actually the limbs at least should be possible even with todays technology, though you'd use surgury rather than genetics.
I wasn't aware we'd had much luck with lengthening bone...
we can. but it's pretty traumatic. you need to cut the bone apart and insert a spacer with a thin mesh so the bone will grow over it. can't move the limb for weeks. or maybe i'm just pulling all this out of my ass ::shrug::
No, I remember watcing a video a few years ago about this little girl who was going through the bone lengthening procedure, they used those really evil looking braces that you anchor in bone to hold in place.
Of course, there is an alternative to the mesh, coral makes a remarkable spacer for repairing bones, as the calcium carbonate is broken down to create bone, the bone simply fills in the gaps. They have had good success with this, but you have to have a ready supply for artificial coral to do it properly.
Of course, there is an alternative to the mesh, coral makes a remarkable spacer for repairing bones, as the calcium carbonate is broken down to create bone, the bone simply fills in the gaps. They have had good success with this, but you have to have a ready supply for artificial coral to do it properly.
I thought Natural Coral was sufficient. Hmm.
At any rate it's certainly painful, traumatic, and expensive but it's easily possible today. Of course Shadowrun stuff frequently isn't as good as what we have today, their Cell Phones still weigh a full kilogram and their computers sometimes act like they have the memory of a device from 1980, so maybe it doesn't work there.
At any rate it's certainly painful, traumatic, and expensive but it's easily possible today. Of course Shadowrun stuff frequently isn't as good as what we have today, their Cell Phones still weigh a full kilogram and their computers sometimes act like they have the memory of a device from 1980, so maybe it doesn't work there.
Problem with nat coral, it's got to be sterilized, which might wash away most of the stuff you need. The video i watched with them using it in surgury showed plani white, few sterile and processed coral like substance
I don't know enough about genetics to comment about genetech, I don't even know if it's possible to do "after market" modifications to DNA. I always thought that was the stuff of movies, superhero comics, and videogames. Compared to other things, the technology should exist for some kind of body sculpting though; either relatively tame stuff from old William Gibson stories or very significant changes.
I can understand why they didn't include it, since the game developers would have to decide how easy it is to accomplish (to get on the streets) and figure out why people would do that in large enough numbers (a socio/psychological issue). They also probably didn't want to add another chapter to Man and Machine. If there were in-game effects, they'd have to (hopefully) playtest it for balance as well.
It could also potentially change the feel of the game, but then again they came up with SURGE, which is weirder IMO.
You could probably back engineer SURGE minus the magic, and base rules off of bioware or genetech or something. If you have other game books with rules for that kind of thing, maybe try a conversion-- excluding what doesn't fit SR. If you come up with something go ahead and share; always interested in seeing new stuff.
I can understand why they didn't include it, since the game developers would have to decide how easy it is to accomplish (to get on the streets) and figure out why people would do that in large enough numbers (a socio/psychological issue). They also probably didn't want to add another chapter to Man and Machine. If there were in-game effects, they'd have to (hopefully) playtest it for balance as well.
It could also potentially change the feel of the game, but then again they came up with SURGE, which is weirder IMO.
You could probably back engineer SURGE minus the magic, and base rules off of bioware or genetech or something. If you have other game books with rules for that kind of thing, maybe try a conversion-- excluding what doesn't fit SR. If you come up with something go ahead and share; always interested in seeing new stuff.
| QUOTE (Entropy Kid) |
| I don't know enough about genetics to comment about genetech, I don't even know if it's possible to do "after market" modifications to DNA. |
Actually genetic manipulations are fairly common practice in molecular biology labs even today. You can add, remove or regulate genes. The problem is we do it in yeast, bacteria and viruses. Effecting these kinds of changes on a human is far beyond our current capibilites...
| QUOTE (Method) |
| Actually genetic manipulations are fairly common practice in molecular biology labs even today. You can add, remove or regulate genes. The problem is we do it in yeast, bacteria and viruses. Effecting these kinds of changes on a human is far beyond our current capibilites... |
...but we should be there pretty soon. MY lab does genetic work on humans - ex vivo genetic work, but all the same. My ex-roommate is getting his PhD working on a new kind of viral vector for human gene therapy.
We are definitely getting there. Whole-human genetic therapy is still scifi, but it's near future stuff. And it'll be damn cool when we get it.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Basically, because "Major Phenotypic alteration" doesn't allow for gaining any in-game advantages. It's primarily cosmetic. |
A major phenotypic alteration can add 1 point to your Body, Strength or Quickness Racial Modified Maximum and Attribute Maximum. SOTA:2063 page 26a.
Lengthening limbs would have to be done during childhood.
| QUOTE (Nath) | ||
A major phenotypic alteration can add 1 point to your Body, Strength or Quickness Racial Modified Maximum and Attribute Maximum. SOTA:2063 page 26a. |
Which is why I said "Primarily". They still don't provide any direct advantage, like bioware or cyber would.
| QUOTE (Req) |
| MY lab does genetic work on humans - ex vivo genetic work, but all the same. |
Oh yeah?!? Well MY labs better than your lab....
Just kidding. Seriously though, where do you work? I do research in cancer genetics at the University of Wyoming.
Anyway, we do plenty of ex vivo work with human genes as well, but I highly doubt that even by 2064 we will have the ability to safely effect the kinds of systemic changes involved in gobliniztation. Something like that is hundreds of years away...
| QUOTE |
STORY Scientists find gene cure for cheating lover voles [ Spoiler ] |
I sense a very sad future ahead. But, that's nothing new.
Req, if it were possible to buy you and your roommate a beer over long distances, I so would.
Viral-vectored genetic alteration has been one of my favorite concepts forever.
Viral-vectored genetic alteration has been one of my favorite concepts forever.
| QUOTE (Raptor1033) |
| we can. but it's pretty traumatic. you need to cut the bone apart and insert a spacer with a thin mesh so the bone will grow over it. can't move the limb for weeks. or maybe i'm just pulling all this out of my ass ::shrug:: |
You're not, I've seen documentaries. It's just so expensive and such a pain that nobody does it.
Speaking of genetics... Mutants are here!
Seriously, can you imagine UniOmni getting a baby like this and using him to create an army of Ahnolds?
Seriously, can you imagine UniOmni getting a baby like this and using him to create an army of Ahnolds?
| QUOTE (Panzergeist) |
| Lengthening limbs would have to be done during childhood. |
Not exactly. Young people in their early adolescence are more successful, because of the pliable bones allow for extra length, but doctors have been able to successfully apply ELL surgery on patients over 60.
From a quick internet search, it seems you can add over a foot, usually over the period of a couple of years (dialing 1mm a day, although it could take a month for a 1cm of growth).
| QUOTE |
| Lengthening limbs would have to be done during childhood. |
Yeah.Have you ever seen some of those tribes(Africa I think)on National Geographic that stretch their necks out throughout their childhood till they end up looking like mini giraffes.They use what looks like steel rings adding one after the other for an extended period of time.I imagine the same principle would work with limbs,although the length of time it would take would be a mystery.
But the net result of that is, if the rings are ever removed, their necks are now too weak to support themselves and they die. Not what he was looking for.
Actually Cain and Cheezypoof714 you're both wrong.
Those rings don't stretch necks at all. They push down the shoulders and it gives the appearance of a long neck.
The necks aren't usually too weak to support themselves, sometimes they are from muscle atrophy though.
Another thing they do it as a part of cultural identity, and because long long ago the 'tribe' didn't want their women to be taken as slaves or to leave the village, so they started to alter the look of the women to this long necked appearance. The men there have all grown up to like the look, and other men from outside don't. So it worked.
P.S. The rings are made of brass, and lengthened every 3-5 years.
Now Back on topic.
If major phenotype alteration can't do what I questioned.
is there a major genotype alteration?
(For those unknowing of biology. Phenotype = appearance. Genotype = phisiology)
HMHVV for instance changes the genotype of those infected.
Could HMHVV be then gene altered to create more freaky ghouls/vampires/werewolves/whatevers?
P.P.S. Daaaam that baby has some buff legs in that link. I want to keep track of him. I wonder if he'll get proper weight training during his life and become a super athelete. The first ever known physad.
Those rings don't stretch necks at all. They push down the shoulders and it gives the appearance of a long neck.
The necks aren't usually too weak to support themselves, sometimes they are from muscle atrophy though.
Another thing they do it as a part of cultural identity, and because long long ago the 'tribe' didn't want their women to be taken as slaves or to leave the village, so they started to alter the look of the women to this long necked appearance. The men there have all grown up to like the look, and other men from outside don't. So it worked.
P.S. The rings are made of brass, and lengthened every 3-5 years.
Now Back on topic.
If major phenotype alteration can't do what I questioned.
is there a major genotype alteration?
(For those unknowing of biology. Phenotype = appearance. Genotype = phisiology)
HMHVV for instance changes the genotype of those infected.
Could HMHVV be then gene altered to create more freaky ghouls/vampires/werewolves/whatevers?
P.P.S. Daaaam that baby has some buff legs in that link. I want to keep track of him. I wonder if he'll get proper weight training during his life and become a super athelete. The first ever known physad.
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