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maneius
What exactly is going to be in Shadows of Europe? I mainly want to know how much it has on London and the UK.
Nikoli
If they told you, you'd be the target of an interdiction run.
maneius
QUOTE
If they told you, you'd be the target of an interdiction run.

I cower before the power of your awesome wit and intellect ohplease.gif
Not only are you funny, you're original too.

Yes, I know you're joking (at least I hope so) but come on, it was a serious question.
Nikoli
Point is, nobody that can tell you, will. the book isn't out just yet.
The ones that would, obviously can't for the same reason.

BTW, didn't mean to be a jerk, just one of those days.
Synner
To quote myself in another thread, and without giving anything away:
QUOTE
SoE will mostly cover Western Europe (mostly the NEEC member nations plus a couple of others). Besides Eurohistory, politics, corps, magic and underworld the book will cover:
  • AGS - Shattered, surprises and shockwaves.
  • Austria - Old money, blue blood, power hungry and strange bedfellows.
  • Czech Republic - what the?
  • France - Dark hearts hold black secrets...
  • Italian Confederation - Vatican, mafia, what else can anyone ask for?
  • Poland - Dark legacies and a big bang of a surprise.
  • Portugal - Seeing is believing... well maybe not.
  • Scandinavian Union - Something rotten in the kingdom of...
  • Spain - And you thought California was a mess.
  • Switzerland - The japanese have much to learn.
  • Tir Na nOg - They did what!?
  • United Kingdom - Where the great cauldron is aboiling over.
  • United Netherlands - Land of sugar, spice and things not so nice.

The UK gets one of the larger chapters and is fully compatible with the old London sb (in fact fans who own that are sure to have a ball seeing how things developed in the intervening decade). London gets a visit but so do a number of other locations.
Snow_Fox
It it will be out....when?
I'm not nagging. I'm being good, please please.
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Synner)
To quote myself in another thread, and without giving anything away:[*] France - Dark hearts hold black secrets...

HEY!!!!!

Synner
LOL. It's not what you think. At least I don't think it is what you think. It's unlikely it is what anyone thinks. Though it might be what you think if your thinking is twisted enough. SoE is like that in places. The French guys outdid even me in digging up the past...
Phaeton
...question.gif

I'm confused...

Should I stay out of this?
CountZero
Is there anything on Germany, or should I just try to pick up the old Germany Sourcebook for SR2 (or will Germany be getting their own book)?
Frag-o Delux
QUOTE (Phaeton)
...question.gif

I'm confused...

Should I stay out of this?

Snow Fox's family is from France. I believe she said she is first generation American. Just a little bit of an inside joke.
Phaeton
Ahhhhhh...Got it!
Snow_Fox
That and Synner's been teasing me, without violating the code of silence, about this for what seems like years.
He's proving that dispite the sterotype, some guys can keep the foreplay going for a LONG time.
Frag-o Delux
Well I'll tell you he has kept me excited about it. But really I am excited about any SR book, so it isn't much of a victory to keep me excited. I like bugs.

I don't know what it is but I am very excited to see some more stuff on Proteus AG. I have been fascinated with that company for awhile, even with the lack of info in English for it.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
That and Synner's been teasing me, without violating the code of silence, about this for what seems like years.
He's proving that dispite the sterotype, some guys can keep the foreplay going for a LONG time.

Four and counting.
Synner
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jun 22 2004, 04:07 AM)
Four and counting.

Please don't remind me. This is the longest pregnancy I've ever seen wink.gif
shadd4d
QUOTE (CountZero)
Is there anything on Germany, or should I just try to pick up the old Germany Sourcebook for SR2 (or will Germany be getting their own book)?

Synner said something that SoE will use some of the new Germany sourcebook which they released in German. Believe me, having read some of the stuff from Germany and their German only books, there are massive changes, like the change of Berlin, rise of Proteus, death of Nachtmeister, disapperance of a king, Westphalen under siege by Shedim...there's a lot from the new Germany sourcebook that I imagine will appear in the SoE.

The old Germany Sourcebook is interesting though. I'd pick it up just on principle.

Don
Synner
Please note that DiDS2 (the "new" German sb in German) is 350 pages long and gives a far more detailed look at Germany than we could ever hope to fit in a SoNA-sized chapter in SoE. On the other hand a lot of the stuff in the German sourcebooks is very specific and would require more than a passing knowledge of the country to get the full use out of it. I'd also like to note that not all the background in American and German canon prior to FanPro's take over of the line was compatible. Several changes were made to the German material in the English language Germany sb from what was in the original DidS sb (and some of the latter German books too). A lot of effort went into resolving the inconsistencies. Some of the results are already visible in DotSW (see Kaltenstein, Nebelherr and Feuerschwinge), others will be in SoE.

SoE contains some of the major threads and developments from DiDS (but nowhere near all of them) and describes the situation as of 2064 (including several updates for the German fans).

As with London and TNO anyone possessing the original sourcebook will have the opportunity to see how things evolved in the past decade and those books could be considered non-essential complements to SoE; just like CalFree, TT and NAGNA complement SoNA.
otaku mike
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Jun 21 2004, 09:34 PM)
QUOTE (Synner)
To quote myself in another thread, and without giving anything away:[*] France - Dark hearts hold black secrets...

HEY!!!!!

Don't worry. I think Synner got over himself trying to summarize the complexities of the French chapter (please note the French natural haughtiness in this sentence wink.gif ). Don't try to see anything relevant in those few words. cool.gif
Now please look at the red light... *Zap!*
Nikoli
Not to sounds ethnocentric, by why does Germany rate a 350 pg book, to be released in German only? Is there some movement inside FanPro lbent on making those of use who play in the US jealous or something? Seems rather silly to go through the trouble of running up a print and limit it to any one language. This holds true for any SR book, there is no reason to not print them in any language for any country that has peolpe that want to play. I don't want to learn another language just to get the scoop on more metaplots. The death of a Great Form deserves to be known by all, not just folks who happen to speak a particular language..
Paul
Because, as I recall it, the Germans really really buy SR product. As I recall it, the game is really successful over there, I mean really succesful. SO much so that there were several source books, and a few novels.

Can anyone check me on this?

Nikoli
That's not the point. It's really successful here, but to my knowledge, every English print SR book has been translated into German. And we haven't seen an US release only, no German translation, 350 pg source book yet.

Doesn't seem balanced
shadd4d
QUOTE (Paul)
Because, as I recall it, the Germans really really buy SR product. As I recall it, the game is really successful over there, I mean really succesful. SO much so that there were several source books, and a few novels.

Can anyone check me on this?

You are correct. Every book has been translated, to my knowledge. There were 3 sourcebooks (Chrom und Dioxin (Switzerland, Germany update, Walzer, Punks und Schwarzes Ice (Austria further updates), and DidSII (big, big, big Germany update, contains info from the other two books plus some stuff they developed) and 2 adventure books, one of which is the book Shockwaves. There's also a trilogy of novels concerning the Proteus AG and some events such as the death of that Eastern Dragon.

Shadowrun over there is probably the #2 game after D&D (I may be wrong on this, but looking at the Fanpro forums, there's a lot of SR fans over there/here).

The new Germany book is great. It's probably (it feels) larger than the main book, but it describes every country in the German alliance. It updates them for post-year of the comet, and it includes a lot of plot hooks and in-jokes.

In-joke example: There's a bar in Düsseldorf named Campino. It's named after some rocker. You have to know German rock music to know that Campino is the lead singer of the band Die toten Hosen (the dead pants/it's pretty much dead around here, i.e. nothing to do/boring here) and to know why that's funny. There's other examples, but that and the Slippery are the only two that actually pop up, so to speak.

I do have 2 gripes with the new DidSII. 1) The map looks to artistic to be useful. Better off buying or downloading a map of present day Germany and making changes. 2) You really need DidSI to know the politics, security forces, etc. This is being solved with the new Target: ADL book, but it is still a bit irksome. On the other hand, it really, really fleshes out Germany: Sachsen as mercenary kingdom, a fleshing out of the dragons in Germany, the various countries and how they have been effected by the YOTC, a real look at the culture and mentality of the region and the environment. Probably, IMHO, the best suppliment I've ever owned, aside from rules expansions.

Don





Snow_Fox
QUOTE (otaku mike)
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Jun 21 2004, 09:34 PM)
QUOTE (Synner)
To quote myself in another thread, and without giving anything away:[*] France - Dark hearts hold black secrets...

HEY!!!!!

Don't worry. I think Synner got over himself trying to summarize the complexities of the French chapter (please note the French natural haughtiness in this sentence wink.gif ). Don't try to see anything relevant in those few words. cool.gif
Now please look at the red light... *Zap!*

Well we both know France should be the main chapter to properly cover her complexities. beret.gif
Abstruse
You know why there are more books in German than in English? THEY SELL. That's all the reason they need to translate them. You know why there aren't copies of the German update book? Because 10 people would spend the $30-40 to buy a book on a country they probably won't actually play a single game in. Hell, the original Germany book didn't sell that well. Also why the French France sourcebook wasn't translated. Well, that and it being absolutely ridiculous about many things...

The Abstruse One
MYST1C
QUOTE (Nikoli)
It's really successful here, but to my knowledge, every English print SR book has been translated into German.

Nope.
The most recent example would be Shadows of North America that was not translated (there were loads of complaints about that decision).
MYST1C
QUOTE (shadd4d)
Shadowrun over there is probably the #2 game after D&D (I may be wrong on this, but looking at the Fanpro forums, there's a lot of SR fans over there/here).



According to various polls held among gamers in Germany, the throne of RPGs is firmly in FanPro's hands:
Das Schwarze Auge (FanPro's fantasy system) has been #1 for at least the last decade.
The following places go (in variable order) to Shadowrun, World of Darkness and D&D.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Not to sounds ethnocentric, by why does Germany rate a 350 pg book, to be released in German only?

Deutschland in den Schatten 2 is a compilation of three previously published German sourcebooks (that have all been long OOP), plus revisions, updates and some new stuff.
Hence the size.

I'm sure SoNA could have been of the same size or even bigger. I guess the decision was an economic one. Perhaps a book of that size (with according production costs) wouldn't sell well enough on the American market where SR's position is AFAIK weaker than in Germany.
Paul
QUOTE (Nikoli)
That's not the point. It's really successful here, but to my knowledge, every English print SR book has been translated into German. And we haven't seen an US release only, no German translation, 350 pg source book yet.

Doesn't seem balanced

Well I guess I would say, and keep in mind I am not in any way officially connected to Fan Pro, that most American Players don't set their campaigns in Germany, so the cost would be prohibitive. I mean there are some die hards like me out there that have our Shadowrun phonecards, and Kage back copies but the average player? Would they be intrested in another Germany book?

Thats assuming the German books would translate well into english, and that we'd find them as appealing as the German crowd does. (You ever hear of the dead pants? I sure as hell hadn't...)

So until it becomes profitable for Fan Pro or whomever to do what you want-they won't.
otaku mike
There is also an important point that seems to be forgotten: Fanpro Germany and Fanpro US are 2 separate companies, with their own market and publishing policy.
Rob Boyle doesn't supervise everything that is done for the german market, though there is a tight collaboration.
So, you can't be angry after Fanpro US because Fanpro D released a german only book. You may object that Fanpro US doesn't translate the book in english, but then lots of people already pointed out why it would be a stupid (commercially-wise) idea.
Synner
The original Germany sb didn't sell that well in the first place (it's actually still available in many places) so its easy to see why FanPro US would be reluctant to put out a book twice that size on the same country 9 years on. In fact single country sourcebooks seem to have a poor sales record as compared to books like SoNA. Adding to this the fact that a lot of the material is German-centric and will never be used in most games and it's bad commercial sense to have the book translated from German to English, laid out again and printed (all of which costs significantly).

A DiDS2 (and an upcoming Target:AGS) mades all the sense for the German audience though since its their backyard getting coverage and many of them actually play Germany-based games. Furthermore, in Europe setting books appeal to more gamers than just GMs a common trend in the US.

The France sourcebook was a similar but different issue. Not only did it pose the same problems as DiDS, but it also ran roughshod over canon and introduced a number of "setting breakers".
Snow_Fox
I have it but never really got into it. There was just too much and too much a sense of holding something alien, like being invited to a party where you know no one and know one will talk to you.
Admittedly I have a slight bias against Germans but If I'm typical, it might explain why it didn't do well.
FlakJacket
Plus with the France sourcebook, whilst they got a franchise - not sure what the right legal term is - to use the Shadowrun world and do a book on the place, they didn't show it to any of the FASA/FanPro people before sending it off to the printers AFAIK. That along with breaking canon, having a serious case of 'Our country and stuff is so much cooler than everyone else's so nyah!' and generally being a bit on the crap side, it isn't canon and didn't get translated officially.
CountZero
Hmm... I haven't had the chance to pick up the Germany sourcebook, and I kind of liked "Ragnarock and Roll". So, is there even a teeny weeny chance that Shadows of Germany 2 will either come out a) in a translated print version. b) a translated print-on-demand version (ala RPGMall.com) or c) an E-book (either DRM enabled like DriveThruRPG.com or Non-DRM enabled like RPGNow.com)?
Nath
As far as I remember, France sb did not contradict canon as it stood at the time of its publishing (1997). There might be an issue with the novel Night's Pawn (1993) since France introduced a son of Richard Villiers, but I'd note that same novel was also contradicted in Blood in the Boardroom, Darren Villiers becoming Richard's brother instead of his nephew. Only after France publishing did American authors add elements to SR canon that contradicted that book they never saw. France is still munchkin, filled with bad idea and stupid plots, and deserves a hefty load of critics, but no bashing for its respect of canon.
otaku mike
Talking about "my country is the best of the world" syndrome reminds me of the incredible dragon per square-meter ratio in Germany smile.gif
If we limited ourselves about adding new dragons in SoE, it's mainly because Germany already had too much wink.gif

BTW, I noticed the SoE wallpapers are no longer available on the official website. Anyone knows why they've been removed? Adam?
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Nath)
As far as I remember, France sb did not contradict canon as it stood at the time of its publishing (1997).

Pfft. Details details. *Makes dismissive hand gestures* wink.gif
TW
QUOTE (otaku mike @ Jun 23 2004, 03:02 AM)
Talking about "my country is the best of the world" syndrome reminds me of the incredible dragon per square-meter ratio in Germany smile.gif
If we limited ourselves about adding new dragons in SoE, it's mainly because Germany already had too much wink.gif

Yeah, the authors of DidS1 (Gemany in the shadows) really went over the top regarding the presence of big scale lizards in the AGS, true. But, the authors of DidS2 noticed that, offing Nachtmeister was the first step of getting rid of those pesky wyrms on AGS territory, next were Kaltenstein and Schwartzkopf (though not offed, they're 'off the map' and pursue interests elsewhere, as indicated in DotsW).
Abstruse
Is Germany worse than the British Isles in that respect? They've got a few over there too...

The Abstruse One
booklord
QUOTE
Talking about "my country is the best of the world" syndrome reminds me of the incredible dragon per square-meter ratio in Germany


After reading through the on-line Earthdawn dragon sourcebook, I came to the conclusion that there was probably two main councils of common (Western) dragons.

Now the notable Barsaive dragons, Dunklezahn, Ghostwalker, Sirrurg, and (by some guesses) Masaru and Hestaby, seem to have relocated themselves from Eastern Europe to the Americas sometime between Earthdawn time and the end of the fourth world. ( when the dragons were all forced into hibernation ) The only clues why may be buried in those "Aina" novels.

There was another western dragon council mentioned in Earthdawn times located around Vasgothia. The only known member of it was Lofwyr and at one time before he was kicked out Alamais. Vasgothia seems to be where Germany is in Europe. I suspect that this council stayed right where it was all the way until the end of the fourth world. That would explain why so many dragons woke up in or around Germany and why almost none of the German dragons can be traced back to the Barsaive dragon council in Earthdawn. They were part of the other council.

QUOTE
Is Germany worse than the British Isles in that respect? They've got a few over there too...


Celedyr is almost certainly a Barsaive dragon given his relationship to Earthroot ( I suspect he is Nightsky) but chose to instead go to the British isles possibly due to the incident involving the Great Tree and Earthroot. Rhonabwy is hinted to have a history with Lofwyr. I suspect that he may therefore also have relocated to the British Isles after a disagreement with the Vasgothia council.

The British Isles may have been a popular spot for dragons that fell out of favor with their councils. Close enough to mainland Europe so they weren't completely separated yet far enough away to avoid the major conflicts and intrigue that seemed to plague Barsaive and the Theran empire.
Bull
Few things of note here...

FanPro, and several other foreign companies, licensed the rights to both translate and sell Shadowrun product within their home countries, as well as produce new books.

In Germany, Shadowrun was popular enough that FanPro (The "orginal FanPro", when itw as just a German RPG company) not only translated almost every book that came down the pipe, but also wrote... 4? 5? of their own books. There was a France, Japanese, and reportedly a Polan SB as well.

The licensed original material wasn't/isn't considered canon material in any way, as FASA didn't ahve any hand in the creation or editing of the products.

FASA decided to do a Germany Sourcebook after seeing an English summary of it, but made changes as they saw fit to adjust it to their needs, to fit it into the Canon gameworld.

When FASA closed it's doors and WizKids bought Shadowrun, they wanted to keep the game line going. The people most familiar with Shadowrun and in the best position to publish SR material was FanPro, so they gave Fanpro the license to print Shadowrun material.

Germany 2 was already in the works at that point, AFAIK, and had FASA still been around it likely wouldn't be canon still, though FanPro reportedly made a lot of efforts to keep Germany 2 close to the Canon SR world.

of course, with Fanpro at the reigns now, it's no surprise that it is considered Canon, but it's very German centered, and has been mentioned, a lot would be lost on non-Germans, likely.

Also, as has been noted, the original Germany book didn't sell all that well, and overall single-place/country SB's sell like drek. But SoNA and the Target books have shown that books with less single location focus can sell decently, so the info from Germany 2 was used as the basis for the info in SoE. Plus info and material from it is avilable to the Freelancers in case the data is relevant for other Sourcebooks...

Bull
Nath
QUOTE (Abstruse)
Is Germany worse than the British Isles in that respect? They've got a few over there too...

Wales alone have all the three British Great Dragons: Rhonabwy, Celedyr and the Sea Dragon. Germany got five in the English version, Lofwyr, Kaltenstein, Nebelherr, Feuerschwinge and Nachtmeister, and six with Schwarzkopf in the original German version (even seven if you count Alamais in Germany in the Nachtmachen hideout in Night's Pawn, but you can't blame the German for that one). Now Nachtmeister's dead as well as more or less Feuerschwinge and Kaltenstein, Alamais moved to Norway, Schwarzkopf to Czechia and Nebelherr had been downgraded to adult status.
TW
err, Kaltenstein isn't dead! That, in fact was THE major change done by the FASA guys while translating DidS1. They offed Kaltenstein in a half sentence, but only did so in the english translation of the book. For german fans and german SR authors, Kaltenstein wasn't involved in any fight with Lofwyr and Nebelherr and thus didn't die. Hence the hint on what was going on between Lofwyr, Kaltenstein and Nebelherr in Dotsw to get things back on canonical tracks.
So according to Fanpro (global) canon, in 2063, Kaltenstein is very much alive and kicking wink.gif
IIRC, Nebelherr was an adult from the start, there wasn't any downgrading necessary.
Abstruse
What, did he de-age? Leonization for dragons...

The Abstruse One
Nath
QUOTE (Germany Sourcebook - page 24)
By early 2012, four great dragons - Lofwyr, Nebelherr, Kaltenstein, and Feuerschwinge - had each appeared at least once in Germany.

QUOTE (Dragons of the Sixth World - page 168)
NEBELHERR
Adult Western Dragon

EDIT: Of course, rather than de-ageing, we could explain that just by the fact, the people on Shadowland really believed Nebelherr was a great dragon in 2054 and until , as DotSW put it, that if size might be usually the best indicator of a great dragon, it is not entirely reliable.
TW
QUOTE (Nath)
QUOTE (Germany Sourcebook - page 24)
By early 2012, four great dragons - Lofwyr, Nebelherr, Kaltenstein, and Feuerschwinge - had each appeared at least once in Germany.

QUOTE (Dragons of the Sixth World - page 168)
NEBELHERR
Adult Western Dragon

EDIT: Of course, rather than de-ageing, we could explain that just by the fact, the people on Shadowland really believed Nebelherr was a great dragon in 2054 and until , as DotSW put it, that if size might be usually the best indicator of a great dragon, it is not entirely reliable.

Well, I should have known better than to start arguing with "Monsieur Encyclopedia" biggrin.gif
Jérémie
Almost a month since SoE got to the printer... and still no entry in the Fanpro/FFE page.

Any update ?
Blaze
Having just read through this thread the only things that surprise me so far are the bits SoE isn't covering. I was kinda expecting (...and counting on...) it to deal with Greece and Western Russia. Oh well, can't have the moon on a stick- I'll just have to dump the crew in Eastern Poland instead... vegm.gif

-JH.
Synner
QUOTE (Blaze)
Having just read through this thread the only things that surprise me so far are the bits SoE isn't covering. I was kinda expecting (...and counting on...) it to deal with Greece and Western Russia. Oh well, can't have the moon on a stick- I'll just have to dump the crew in Eastern Poland instead... vegm.gif

It was essentially a question of space, SoE covers 14 countries in 240 pages. To have done Russia and Greece in the detail they require would have meant at least another 50 pages, so it was decided to save them for later projects.

Regarding dropping the team off in Poland... well, if you can hold on just a little longer I think everyone is in for a big surprise which will make it even more interesting. There are teasers in DotSW's Lofwyr and Calozerca btw.
otaku mike
QUOTE (Synner)
It was essentially a question of space, SoE covers 14 countries in 240 pages.

err, last time I counted, that was 13 countries Peter wink.gif
You work too much smile.gif
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