I remember a thread an age ago where this was half dicussed, and basically if i recall correctly (and i might not) more then a few people myself included, thought that it wasn't actually a flaw, and in some instances qualified as a merit.

Well hows about a reworking of said "flaw"??

Merit, Day job worth 1-4 points.
Whether it be working at the local stuff shack (yeah live that one down ) or bodyguarding for your local fixer you have to spend a certain amount of time each week "working" for this offcause you receive a certain amount of income (depending on how many fries you serve..)

1 pt, 10 hrs per week serving "fries". and 1000
2 pt, 20 hrs per week and 2500
3 pt, 40 hrs per week and 5000
For the above Jobs consider your hours "set" ie mon-fri 9-5 or what you and your Gm can agree on. If your hours are complete flexable ie you have to do 20 per week programming can you can choose when that is +1 to the value of the merit.

If your wanting a flaw to represent time you need to spend doing other things that don't pay anything i suggest you look at the "Dependents" flaw.

Comments on a post card and all that...

First: I *hope* those are supposed to be salaries per month, rather than per week...

Second: I agree that getting paid in your offtime shouldnt constitute a flaw, however, there is still a flaw to be found in this:

Crappy (Drekky?) Day Job (-1 to -4)

You work an exhausting, thankless job for little money, but at least noone cares enough about you to inquire about your social life.

-1: 20 hours (2 days) a week, 500 nuyen/month +1 TN penalties to all activities that take place after a day of work.
-2: 40 hours (4 days) a week, 1000 nuyen/month +1 TN penalties to all activities that take place after a day of work
-3: 60 hours (6 days) a week, 2500 nuyen/month +1 TN penalties to all activities that take place after a day of work

Add an additional -1 for a +1 to TN penalties

It's a flaw because it cuts into the time you can do things like code your own utilities, build your own decks, or enchant a focus. For many characters, that's not much of a problem. But for tech-heads and enchanters, it can get tedious pretty quickly.

If day job isn't a flaw then your shadowrunners have a lot of free time. Many people in my group have taken the flaw at various time at various levels and its always a hinderance. I never get to plan when a johnson calls. Sure, many jobs have several days lead time or can only be accomplished at night but many don't. I've taken jobs that start at the end of the meet and finish 12 hours later. Nothing is more irratating that having your Samurai go "Sorry guys, I can't shadowrun on tuesdays and thursdays."
Ask yourself, could you shadowrun and maintain your present job?

It's a difficult flaw because it requires more creativity and effort on the GM's part because the effects are not clearly defined and outlined.

Which is not a dig against GMs, but compare it to "poor eyesight, +1 penalty for visual perception checks".

A creative player could turn a day job into more of a merit than a flaw as many GMs and players have pointed out. I had one character that had an illegal "day" job which gave him free reign, but he only got paid if he actually worked, which meant I had to allocate time but it also gave me free flaw points to balance edges.

In retrospect, a good roleplayer could approach a GM and say, "I want to do this during my spare time and we'll use this table to figure out how much money I make."

However, also ramifications of a day job: +1 penalty when dealing with punks, "Dude, you work where?" or even "Dude, you work?"

And people opposed to your employer or allied with his enemies may find you a convenient target of reprisals.

-Siege

It'sa flaw because it takes you out of the loop. I had a hcaracter who had a day job, we agreed she'd be a techer. The problem was meets had to be scheduled after school, she couldn't stay out all night on school nights, because hse'd be too tired at school the next day.

That merit's rather useless.

Enchanting, Computer(Programming), and the B/R skills in general are very useful for one reason beyond just being inherently useful for the obvious tasks. They pretty much let you set your baseline for how little you're willing to do runs for, an invaluable ability if you're nervous about your GM shortchanging you on runs. You just have to ask yourself, "Could I make more money doing XYZ compared to what I'll make doing this run?". If the answer is yes, you ask for more money and if you don't get it you blow the job off.

You'll usually need an associated Knowledge skill too, but almost everyone has more knowledge skills than they know what to do with. It's ALWAYS nice when a knowledge skill is actually directly useful, such as the Chemistry rules in M&M. Imagine if instead of spending 3 points on a fruity merit that gets you 5,000 nuyen per month, you spent them on the merit Connected at 3 and chose Computer Programs as the thing your friend would always buy. A larger effective karma investment, 3 skill points worth to be precise, into Computer(Programming) will be an assumption I vaguely use.

What you'll need to be a crappy programmer:
-A machine with lots of memory. You'll need a bare minimum of 180 really. Let's splurge and opt for a Desktop with 720 megapulses. Not much room for porn, to be sure, but it'll do. This would put you back a pretty penny - 14,400 - But consider that to be your initial investment.

-Some time.

Let's say you sat down and said to yourself, "I'll program <Blank> all day!" and hey, you've got the skills to back that up. Well, not really but you've got a knowledge skill. As you have a machine with some memory, you can mostly count on the -2 TN mod for double the neccessary memory for now.

Maybe you decide to code a rating 4 Agent. That's the best you can do. Such a thing would have a design size of 160. If you get just one success(Unlucky much?), you would be making 100 nuyen per day so long as you sold just one copy to your friend. Two successes, 200 nuyen. Three succeses, 300 nuyen. Four, 400 nuyen for every day you spend programming. If you got just two successes, you would be making more you would with the 3-point day job 'merit'. Your computer would be paid for once you finished your Agent.

If I was playing under a GM that considered Day Job to be a merit and someone actually took it, I would absolutely expect them to be playing a cyclops that is an otaku and a ghoul.

For a Rigger, a day job is annoying. For a Decker, it's a significant inconvenience. For a Mage, it can be crippling.

~J

Not even taking into account down-time stuff, what are you going to tell your manager at the McHugh's or the boss of the seedy club you work as a bouncer at (who has yak ties) "Hey, can I have the next three weeks off? Oh, Mr. J told me I can't tell anyone where-- err, I mean I have dyptheria. Yeah."

The Abstruse One

It has never helped a group of mine. I have become a master at making the day job a pain in the ass... especially when healing wounds. Remember, a character only has so much sick time to use.

Four words that will make this a real flaw

Mandatory Sudden Unexpected Overtime

Letter of Immediate Resignation is followed by Immediate Docking of Karma unless you go get a new job.

Oh no, let ONE player in my group try that trick and see what happens. Homey don't play dat. How about Hunted flaw at double the value of the day job flaw? Renraku wants their programmer back, the yakuza thinks the former bouncer knows too much about the backroom operations, etc. And that's just my immediate idea...I tend to get nastier the more I brood over a situation

The Abstruse One

That was my next question: what penalties would you assign to a character who ditches his "day job?"

Bad Rep?
Hunted?

-Siege

What for? I mean there is no in-game reason for karma reduction or giving a Bad Rep/Hunted to a school teacher or some kid who flips burgers.

Bad Rep: Poor attendance record or Job Abandonment.

Fired for Negligence, etc.

These are all "bad reps" that follow a character around, provided they try to use the same SIN.

-Siege

Edit:
Karma reduction was a suggested penalty for players who shirk or disregard their selected flaws. Another was reassigning the flaw points to related flaws garnered by their failure to abide by the original flaw.

Edited: To add the edit tags.

Heh, logic is a dangerous criteria to attach to any game aspect.

However, it doesn't have to follow him into the Shadows, but it will complicate any legal aspect of his life. When you fill out an application for a job now, they will invariably ask if you've been fired and why.

In 2060 with SINs, that information will be pretty easily accessible, whereas now it requires some effort on the part of the employer to check.

If your player decides to chuck his normal life and drop into the Shadows full time, you're right - odds are this kind of "bad rep" wouldn't follow him.



However, the GM still has the perrogative to dock karma or reassign lost flaw points as he sees fit as a means of maintaining game balance and not simply handing out free build points. It's the same reason why the "blind" flaw doesn't allow characters to take cybernetic implants to bypass the flaw, making it a freebie.

-Siege

You are indeed correct in saying that a Bad Rep applies to any social situation according to Canon. But it is still only a game balance issue, once the game starts, it makes no sense to dock karma for quitting your job. Just as it makes no sense to trade in his Bonus Attribute for more karma!

If you want to penalise a player for losing a Flaw, you must give something back for losing an Edge too.

I've never had a character lose an edge before. However, I REALLY dislike the trend of people trying to "get around" flaws to get free build points. Get a day job and quit the first time it's inconvient, get systive system when you're a magicially-active character and no plans of getting any cyber (guess who's most likely to lose an arm?) I'm not saying be a bastard when it comes to players choosing flaws, I'm talking about people obviously trying to take advantage of the system to get around their flaws. People who take the flaw where the character dies in 3d6 months, then using the genetic treatments in SOTA 2063 to "remove any physical flaw". That's trying to be cheesy and get free points.

Also, a lot of GMs have a tendency to not make flaws a problem for characters. I have two characters who took "computer illiterate" for extra points. Boy are they regretting that now when they have to make rolls to use an autocab or make a call on a payphone...

The point is if you're going to take a flaw for your character, don't be surprised when you have to deal with the problems that flaw causes. You want to use your edges, have fun. You want to get around your flaws, you're not going to get away with it. At least not in my games.

The Abstruse One

You're also forgetting one other negative for Day Job Flaw - it cuts your available training time, making it harder and taking longer to improve skills and attributes.

Sleep - 7 hours per day. Day Job (full) - 9-10 hours per day (work, unpaid lunch break, travel etc).

Eating, shaving, showering, shopping etc, legwork, tracking stuff down (i.e. high availability items). - 3 hours per day.

Leaving at most, just 5 hours per day to train, B/R, etc.... *if* you're not interrupted, on a run, meeting your partners, or Mr. J, etc.

I agree that flaws are not punishments, but neither are they "free" build points. Flaws should be just as integral to the character as edges are, and the more a character plays to the flaw, the less the Gm should feel the need to "enforce" said flaw, if at all (bring it up all the time).

One of my players has Computer Illiterate flaw... and it's a great source of comic relief, and he plays it well. I never have to think "Oh wait, he's completely ignored that flaw so I need to smack him with it."

On the other hand, we've never had a campaign at sea, and I had to force one player to drop or exchange his "Sea Madness" flaw - that was just plain munchkiny and looking for free build points by taking a flaw that his character will never use.

I'm not saying abuse the flaws, I'm just saying enforce them. They're NOT free points. It's a flaw in the character that they get to compensate for with extra points. If I make the Cat Shaman roll his Willpower to cast a high-level attack spell the first round of combat, why shouldn't I also make him toll to try to figure out the computer system on the payphone (check out the novels, esp. Findley's novels. Payphones are not insert-coins-then-dial-number, they're computers with webcams, on-screen guides, and basically toned-down telecoms). He gets the advantages of getting more dice for specific spells and spirits, therefore he gets the bad side as well. He gets to use that Conjuring 6 or Etiquette 6 he got thanks to the build points, he has to puzzle over the use of a coffin motel's automated payment system.

The Abstruse One

Eh - different attitudes, I suppose.

I know too many cheese monkies that would take a flaw knowing they could remove it later with minimum fuss in order to qualify for more Virtue points.

It's one of the reasons why I don't game anymore.

-Siege

Or just take the book recommendation that the elimination of a flaw, which this is, will replace it with another falw of an equal point value of the GM's choosing. Flaws by the book can only be eliminated by paying 10x their value on good karma.

Or by using Gene Therapy(SOTA 2063).

Not to stir the pot too much, but I think I would let a character get rid of his blindness flaw . . . if he was willing to spend hundreds of thousands of and risk brain damage as the doctors operate extensively on his visual cortex.

And this whole discussion is why I flat-out ban the Day Job flaw in my games. The players all know it beforehand, so there's no issues with having to railroad them later.

I agree with Toturi that GM's shouldn't be smacking a player with his flaws right and left; they're best saved for special occasions. If a player has Phobia: Insect Spirits, having them pop up left and right gets annoying. (Assuming, of course, that you're not running a Chicago game. If the player knew that beforehand, he deserves bonus points.) What works best is saving the insect spirits for the big bad guys; when you finally meet the guy who you've been hunting for half the campaign, and he turns out to be a Flesh Form, it really can heighten a game.

Assuming the Borrowed Time is a physical malady to begin with. While its listed as a physical flaw, the description includes references to Cranial Bombs or anything else you can think of.

It also depends on whether or not you want to use SOTA's "remove any physical flaw" rule (which the rules never say, mind you, only "correct physical flaws" which is wholly different) or Borrowed Time's "nothing can save him" rule. Conflicting rules usually dictate that you use the one that's a specific exception to the main rule, which in this case would be Borrowed Time's "nothing can save him" as opposed to "correct physical flaw" since no other physical flaw has such a stipulation -- the closest being Blind, but that only restricts cybereyes from correcting the problem. The flaw then goes on to list the one and only possible hope for removing the flaw (which, itself, is a specific rule-breaker for flaws in general) in that they have to exchange it for other flaws, but only if the GM allows them to after the game has begun.

So no, by "canon" Gene Therapy doesn't work. It could be used to explain why the flaw turned into another set of flaws, but it doesn't eliminate it right out.

and remember, the implementation of flaws doesn't always have to be serious. i remember my friend's and my old characters... mine had a phobia of monster trucks and his had a phobia of clowns. our gm sent us into the barrens to investigate something and we got attacked by clown suit wearing, monster truck driving, acid-filled supersoaker wielding gangers. it was freakin hilarious! i can still imagine the looks on our characters faces as those trucks rolled down the street with 6 clowns hanging out the back hell-bent on our death.

I enjoyed the day job flaw with one character. The flaw, or the job behind the flaw was a major defining point of the character.

The character went by the street name of Bass, not all that original when his "day" job was playing the string bass. He was an aspiring concert bassist sitting in a real orchestra. A large portion of my 'day' job was practicing, which was very flexible, but rehearsal and concert schedules were absolutely inflexible, and almost always ran into weekend evenings.

In the middle of one run, I had to leave the rest of my team and walk my way out of the barrens to get to my car and a dress rehearsal on time.

The character was my first ShadowRun character and was a blast. He was a troll, that goblinized late puberty. Before goblinization, he was dedicated to the music, but lacked the real talent necessary to excel in the professional world. After goblinization - to a troll no less, the likelihood of being an orchestral musician was even less likely. This motivated the character to seek a drastic alternative, the military. Many years, and a few augmentations later, he was again a civilian, with the time, and now improved abilities to pursue his dream.

It is fun to picture a Troll in a tux with a string bass case, that instead of packing heavy military heat, really sports an honest to goodness string bass.

The flaw was a flaw though, it cut into my time as a runner, as a developing character, and the runs cut into my career. Our gamemaster tied a couple of our runs into my job - we did a run against one of the orchestra's major sponsors who ended up pulling funding from the group as a result... pinch time in the orchestra. Other times it seemed all the meets would be set for only minutes after rehearsals forcing me to leave the rehearsal hall with the barest of civility, and sometimes even slighting my fellow players or maestro... bad news for the aspiring professional.

I think the day job is a flaw as long as both the player and story teller are on the same page regarding the job. It can't be paper thin, or then it is just a few points at character development. Instead it can be a very defining point for the character.

Then again my job was a career type job instead of the stuffer shack... so I do acknowledge every case is unique.

--Uba Dave