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Hello people. Never thought I'd have this problem, but surprisingly I do.
How can I get a player to quit?

I started off with a couple of people, three really. I spent a session with them creating their characters. All three of them knew about RPGs, but only 2 had actually played before and none of them SR. We end up with a human rigger, human phsyad, and dwarf sniper. I run them through the first SR Missions download.

They do well for a begining group. During this, we had an audience. Next time we play he wants to join in. He makes a combat decker. And buys the black scorpion, Slivergun, an LMG, Anitoch GL, the best starting deck, and some basic programs. I let him borrow the book for 3 days before he decks, telling him to read the specific section on the matrix since he'll be needing it.
End result from haking Lone Star's main system? Near death from Black Ice (I was being generous). I find out that he didn't read it. I also sit him down in front of me while I'm running the other characters, forcing him to read, and still doesn't.

On the second run, the team has to extract a new player from Lock-up. The decker decided to get some info from the source (hense the reason he was in LS's mainframe). He discovers that the prison isn't at Lock-up yet, he's in a holding cell to be transfered the next day and noon. Then he runs into the Ice and falls to near death. He comes to at roughly 11:45 with the rest of the team staking out the Prison. He tells them that the prisoner is being transfered at noon to LSL (Lone Star Lock-up) and that would be the best time to nab him. Realizing what time it is and seeing the prison convoy down the road he tells the team to attack. He gets very frustrated when I tell him that he can't wear all his armor that he bought and that I don't tell him target numbers. Through some chance, he survives.

I sit down and talk to him about his character and about his play style. I tell him more about the SR world, specifcly Drakes and Dragons. Now he changed his mind. He doesn't want to be a decker, he wants to be a drake. No wait, he wants to play a great dragon now (he learned about "Twist Fate").

So how can I get rid of this player? Our group's expanded to include 2 others, and a possible third, and pretty much everyone agrees that he'll kill the team.
Tell him he's not welcome and explain why. Do this face to face and with whatever measure of grace or forceful bluntness you find appropriate. That's pretty much it, really. If you don't like him (and, from what you say, I think I can readily sympathize) and he's that intent on being ass, that's basically all there is to it.
"We don't think your style of play complements the rest of the group. Sorry, maybe if we switch games we'll call you up."

What's wrong with a simple....


rotfl.gif rotfl.gif
The problem with a simple "YOU SUCK" is, foremost, it doesn't exactly say he's not welcome anymore. He may suck, but it would be better to say "YOU SUCK! YOU"RE NOT WELCOME ANYMORE." I'm not actually suggesting that, though.

I think Arethusa's right, you should probably just come right out and say it, and be prepared to justify everything in terms you're not afraid of anyone hearing. But something to think about is that I can kind of see where the kid's coming from on a few things. The amount of rules involved in the Matrix is wild, and I wouldn't be expecting it if I were coming from another game, or if I had just seen other people making non-decker characters. The guy making the street same just made a character with just the gear books, how hard can this be? That sort of thing. And yes, it can be frustrating when you realize you've bought more armor than you can use (I think. My problem is I never buy enough armor, because I always think I'm too cool for it, which I never am except for one character I had way back). Overall, you're right. Anyone who doesn't read something when the GM specifically sits him down and tries to make him is ass (yet another cool use of the word "ass" I've picked up from these boards). But you shouldn't go into it without seeing his point of view on a couple of these things. Good luck with that, though.
I feel that letting people know through a limeric is the way to go.

For instance:

You started playing with us last week,
But our team will just get geeked,
If you come here again,
Ill kick your shins,
And your eyeballs will be hard to seek.
I disagree and counter with a haiku.

You're really an ass,
And none of us like you much;
Why don't you shove off?
NO, how can you possibly feel that the honor of a civilized Haiku could be applied here? This is OBVIOUSLY a call for a large drunken irish man to handle the situation.

Your haiku would need to be delivered by a ninja. While more threatening it's not nearly as funny as Lord of the Dance
No, if you want threatening, this is more in line with what you want.

You are quite a jerk,
And rather incompetent;
Why are you still here?

But, if you must avoid the haiku, a loose cinquain, then.

Annoying twit,
We hate you,
Really, you're obnoxious and,
I bow before you use of the cinquain.

That was a much better poem smile.gif

All witty at the end and shit.
If for some reason you can't muster the gumption to boot this guy, here are few alternatives that you may want to try:
  • Pregenerate his characters. You know his style, apparently, better than he does. "The group needs a nother Street Sam, sorry take it or leave it."
  • Omnidome. This is a time killer we use when we can't get the whole group togther. (Which seems to happen all too often these days...) Pick a map, role initiative and have them kill each other. (Its all pretend, but it teaches the rules, especially combat and terrain etc..) For fun add drones, spirits or traps.

Thats two suggestions that you may find useful.
I suggest just out right kill him, hack him up with a chainsaw and then bury him in some corn feild for he who walks behind the rows.
I also sit him down in front of me while I'm running the other characters, forcing him to read, and still doesn't.

I'm not sure of the specifics of how you forced him to read, but browbeating in front of other people tends to have negative results.

And, speaking for myself, I tend to learn from experience better than from reading rules. Once I've played with a system a bit, I have much more focused questions in mind when I start reading the rules. Maybe just sitting down and reading the rules wouldn't help much.

He gets very frustrated when I tell him that he can't wear all his armor that he bought

Sure. He goes into play with expectations for his character, no complaints from the GM, then suddenly that rug was yanked out from under him mid-game.

and that I don't tell him target numbers.

If the cause for the rolls was obvious (e.g., combat), were you not sharing TNs? Needlessly hidden information can be very annoying to a player.

I mean, I admit to holding back TNs on checks where the PCs have no prior clue to what's going on (spot the ambush, resist the emotion manipulation spell cast by the hidden mage, etc.), but for the most part, I try to share TNs.

So how can I get rid of this player?

I've gathered he's annoying as a player, but some a key question is: how much of a friend is he to everyone? Is he some near-stranger, or do you (or some of the players) hang out after games with him.

Paul had a reasonable suggestion: pregenerate his character. Fewer surprises that way.
It's easy to get rid of a player. There are several good suggestions above.

When future players join, you should let them know there is a probationary period, ending at some unspecified time when the GM and current players either decide to make the player a "full" member of the group or kick him/her out without any explaination.

However, I'm not sure you need to kick the player out. I suggest you inform all the players that their characters are part of a team, and as a team they can choose who is part of the team and who is out. They can reject a runner on future runs if they feel he/she has been unsafe in an earlier run, or unprofessional, or for whatever reason. They can interview potential replacement characters, and reject any they feel could be a threat to their health. Shadowrun is a team game, and the characters do not have to accept every PC that comes along.

I can easily see the PCs, discussing things in character, decide his current character is too dangerous to the group. They can inform him that he will only get a half-share of future earnings, and can be terminated by any other team mate in the middle of a run if any of them decide he's just pulled a stupid act. Or he can make up a new PC, and interview for the newly opened position, including a probationary period where any experienced team member can terminate his membership.
QUOTE (Cray74)
If the cause for the rolls was obvious (e.g., combat), were you not sharing TNs? Needlessly hidden information can be very annoying to a player.

I mean, I admit to holding back TNs on checks where the PCs have no prior clue to what's going on (spot the ambush, resist the emotion manipulation spell cast by the hidden mage, etc.), but for the most part, I try to share TNs.

Purely dependant on gamestyle. You don't need to share target numbers with players, and in the case of a game that foruses heavily on roleplaying, immersion, and narrative, doing so is a detriment to all three. If you play a casual game or a game that is heavy on mechanics and plays like a video game, then it's obviously a bit odd to not share that kind of information, but in no way is the GM required to share that sort of thing with the players.
There are more questions that need to be answered about this really. I mean is this guy a pretty nice guy who just wants to be a munchkin, or is he annoying in other ways? If he's a nice guy, just sit him down and explain to him the basic point of a role playing game isn't to "win", it's to have fun. Hell, look at Paranoia. The whole POINT of that game is for your character to die.

If the guy's just a douche, though, tell him to hit the road. Explain to him that he's a munchkin and why that's lame, then send him packing.

The Abstruse One
QUOTE (Abstruse)
Hell, look at Paranoia. The whole POINT of that game is for your character to die.

Multiple times, no less.

It seems that hiding target numbers and dice rolls from people who are trying to learn a game would make it more complicated.

It also breeds distrust if the guy already thinks you are biased against him.

Maybe you should do a search of old threads about GMing for newbies, because it sounds like you overlooked that part. Maybe some threads on curbing munchkins, too. Seems like you got a munchkin and his response is to build a better munchkin. I'd never let a new player play a decker, unless they are familiar with the decking rules.

On getting rid of him, if you are going to act like a bunch of girls, get rid of him like a bunch of girls. Whisper amongst yourselves but don't include him. Have everyone nitpick everything his character does that others don't like. Tell him the game got cancelled because you need to wash your hair. Have someone else answer the phone and say you aren't there or can't come to the phone. Get a restraining order. Use your imagination. Almost anything that avoids the issue while avoiding the player will work. wink.gif
You've got a serious munchkin problem. Next up he'll want to be an IE not just any IE but Harlequin etc.

If you don't want him to play just say "it's not working out, we don't want you to be in the group."

But short, sharp and to the point.
I was open-minded until the "I wanna be a dragon" part of the story.

I second the short, sharp answer.

My entry into the fray:

Streams run and leaves fall,
as Karma follows a course.
You bring *bad* karma.
Are you having fun? Is the group as a whole having fun? I have recently (Here) discovered that to be the best measure. If not, explain to him why. Be clear, brutal if need be, but try to avoid being confrontational.
In the end, if the majority of you are not having fun, then I submit that you are not doing it right.
Wounded Ronin
So, I have the impression that this guy only played a session or two, and you already want to kick him out?

If I were you, I'd just tell him why the other people don't like his playing style, suggest he go with the Weapons Specialist for now, and give him a couple more sessions. Explain to him that decking is difficult and complicated and tell him no drake players are allowed. That way, he can make the decision to leave if that type of play is totally incompatible with what he would like to do.

Anyway, he dosen't have to kill the whole team by being inept. Most likely he himself will just die and the rest of the team can, like, flee or something while hte bad guys are killing him. My impression based on your post is that people are overreacting a little bit to 1 PC being incompetent. Look at it this way...if he keeps playing badly, you can have 1 dramatic PC death fairly frequently and so it will help keep your other PCs from getting cocky and jaded.

Yeah...if the PC does something stupid, don't pull punches. Just have the Black IC or whatever kill him.

I mean, SR does have something of a learning curve. Its easy to die and after a few deaths I'm sure he'd become more cautious.
He wanted to play a Great Dragon.

Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Siege)
He wanted to play a Great Dragon.

So let him play an ATGM.
Person 404
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
QUOTE (Siege @ Jul 6 2004, 12:08 AM)
He wanted to play a Great Dragon.

So let him play an ATGM.

A brief but eminently satisfying existence. Borrowed time, anyone?
I have a question. What are your group's respective ages? If he's new to roleplaying and very young, well, I can understand. Perhaps it's best to lay down the law first before kicking him out. Tell him, "These are the things I allow in my game." Make sure you leave great dragon off the list. Be there when he builds his charecter and his background. Handing someone new a book and saying "go read it and be ready to play in 3 days" can be a little intimidating. New players must be guided through everything, especially with a system like Shadowrun's.

New players are gold and it is your duty to try and learn him to be a player. If he's young, that's even better! He'll tell all his friends! Don't let a new player's raging enthusiasm turn you into a killjoy. Be firm and give him the training and chance he needs to flourish.
Plastic Rat
GUYS! The player wanted to play a drake, or a Great Dragon. How many of you got that? Cause if you did, I don't see what's with the rational argument still going on. I was kinda objective untill I read that point, then, well, it all went out the window.

Reasoning with someone like this is like trying to explain to Atilla the Hun that maybe he should set up a little farm somewhere with a wife, (only one), possibly go vegetarian and start being kind to small animals, definitely no hurting people anymore, cause it's bad.

If you want to be nice, maybe put him onto a White Wolf game like Werewolf or DragonBall Z maybe...

Gawds...a dragon...
I believe that if he wanted to play a great dragon he somehow got the impression that such a thing would be allowed. End that illusion, tell him what IS allowed and guide the poor soul.

Geez, no wonder the average age of rollplayers keeps rising! Y'all suck at tolerance!
Plastic Rat
but...but...but...dragon.. indifferent.gif d-d-dragon.... D-R-A-G-O-N..

(whimper)...dragon?!? frown.gif

EDIT: [Hi, this is Plastic Rat's counsellor, he won't be allowed to post for a few days, as his internet priveleges have been revoked. We do NOT break other in-mates digits with hammers for saying 'DRAGON'.]
You could always say ok. Let him play a great dragon. Tell him he can use the priority or build point system to create it. Let him use the books.

But be sure to tell him he needs to show you the priority level or build point cost for the race of great dragon. Maybe he will know the rules better than everyone after searching every last corner of every book for the non-existant stat. And while he is looking, it's the same as kicking him out only you can look over every so often and have a good snicker of amusement.
Skeptical Clown
The answer to playing a dragon is amazingly simple. You say "No". If he wants to keep playing, he makes a real character. If the dragon is a sticking point, presto, he's gone, as you have a solid impersonal case to get rid of him.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with wanting to play a dragon.

In fact there are several games out there devoted to such an idea.

The problem is Shadowrun is not one of those games. You, I, everyone else on this board understand what Shadowrun is. This player does not, and probably doesn't even understand the nature of the cyberpunk genre itself.

The player does not have the contextual knowledge to understand what is, and what isn't appropriate for the game.

That's not the player's fault, and making assumptions that everyone, especially new players, know what you know, is a very bad idea.

On to the advice.

Well, who is this player? Do you, or those you game with, value him as a friend? Or was he just some stranger that happened by?

If his friendship doesn't matter and you can't be bothered to instruct him with the contextual knowlege to play SR... go with the rest of Dumpshock and be an elitist ass. Tell him no, and get on with your life.

You have obviously decided that you want him out of your game before this thread started, yet you seek an excuse to boot him out. Do it, and own up to your assery. Life's too short to try and play games and make excuses to make yourself look the "good guy".
Actually, I ran a fairly successful NAN campaign where most of the characters were Native American, and one of the players (one of our magic users) was actually a very young Drake who spent most of his time in human form.

He had to take Race A, and Magic B (Sorcerer Adept) and was allowed to start with one "dragon like" power in the form of "Human Form". He wasn't really any stronger than the rest of the players, his only real "advantage" was the ability to fly in drake form. I think I also gave him Fire Breath that acted like "flame thrower" at power "Karma Pool/2 M" or some such nonsense.

It was actually quite a good character, as the player tried very hard to think like a dragon. Then again, this was a very experienced player who wanted to try something new, and I knew he wasn't power gaming. It allowed me to throw some stuff into the game that generally just wouldn't work. A few game sessions centered completely around dragon/corp and Dragon/government affairs.

Of course... we were dealing with a great player, and as a GM I could just talk to him about what power level was appropriate, and he would accept it.
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
QUOTE (Siege @ Jul 6 2004, 12:08 AM)
He wanted to play a Great Dragon.

So let him play an ATGM.

Anti Tank Guided Missile eh? Heh.
QUOTE (tjn)
The player does not have the contextual knowledge to understand what is, and what isn't appropriate for the game.

That's not the player's fault[.]

Uhm, so it's not the player's fault that the player refused to read pretty much anything the GM presented to him and refused to listen to most of what the GM was saying? You're really placing an unreasonable amount of responsibility for this on the GM when all presented information does not point in that direction. Question its veracity if you like, but don't be completely unreasonable.
HI, my name is littlesean and I am an Elitist Ass.

I am all for bringing new players in, and have introduced many to SR, as well as other games, but I do have a condition.

They gotta want it.

They must be willing to put a little skull sweat into it away from the table. I do, and so do the other players. I am much more adamant about knowing things like Ares is a Megacorp, than knowing what the modifier for vision is when it is raining at night. I can cover or wing the game mechanics, but if the players refuse to build enough of a foundation for the shared illusion that is the game to work, then I will quickly loose patience with them. It just isn't fun to interrupt a negotiation roleplay to explain that Knight Errant is a security firm, or that yes, Bobby, there are Dragons.

So if that makes me an Elitist Ass, well, I guess now I know.
There are only a few reasons I would kick a player out of the game.

1) Rude Behavior. It's okay to play a socially inept, vindictive troll. Just don't be one in real life.

2) The player can't or won't make the effort. Either it's too difficult to schedule him in or he's not interested wnough to make the effort to learn about Shadowrun.

3) The player's style of play differs immensely from the rest of the groups. Some players enjoy the a chaotic campaign where noone trusts anyone. Others enjoy a long term group where the characters work together in a cohesive team. But what happens when the two meet up? Trouble. Sometimes so bad that the GM has to step in and prevent the new guy from doing something to ruin the game for everyone else.

( Char#1 and Char#2 (new guy) find a suitcase full of cred)
GM : "The suitcase is filled with certified credsticks"
Char #1 : "I radio Char #3 and tell him what we found"
Char #2 : "I shoot Char #1 before he can make that call"
GM : "What?"
Char #1 : "What?"
Char #2 : "I want the money. I'm shooting Char #1"
GM : Your gun jams.
Char #2 : "What no fair! You didn't even roll!"
GM : "Char #1, Char #2 just tried to kill you. What do you want to do?"
Char #1 : "I shoot him" (rolls)

A less extreme example might be the risk-taker in the much more conservative group. ( Even then if the character was developed as a risk taker, and the group allowed themselves to be put in a position where he could get them all killed.... )

4) The new guy forgets to bring snacks. Nah I'm just kidding about that one.


Asking to play a dragon though doesn't bother me. I'd say "Hell no", but it doesn't bother me. And if he doesn't develop a "real" character by game time he'll just sit that one out.

I've re-thought my stance on this.

Instead of a limerick, you need to hold a moch trial.

That's right. GM will be the judge, and let 2 players be the attornies. Screw the jury, you already know the fucker is guilty. And don't you dare let him represent himself!

Wounded Ronin
I don't see why everyone is in a rush to kick the new guy out. Set him up with the Samurai or Weapons Specialist or Troll Ganger and let him play that. That in and of itself will make him play in an appropriate manner. He can play exactly like he's been playing so far and he can be completely in-character. This will also let him get introduced to shadowrun and understand the rules and the world setting.

Maybe I'm just personally a dumb person, but it took me years to understand Shadowrun rules. Now I GM, but even now I still don't feel comfortable with matrix rules or with the vehicle combat rules. I ran full sessions using both of those things in the past but I decided that for the most part I am incapable of really handling them in a neat and timely enough way to avoid boring the crap out of the other players while I rules search and crunch numbers.

So when someone who has never played SR before fails to read or understand the freaking Matrix section of the book and makes a character who is basically an anime character (with all the heavy artillery and armor) that's not really a good reason to give them the boot. I mean, if he dosen't understand the game world he dosen't even have a reason to know that dragon characters are inappropriate.

If you already made up your mind to kick the guy out, then go ahead. But if you're trying to be a reasonable person, then just set him up, as a beginning player, with one of the pregens and take it from there.
Ok, a few more details... First, all of us are roughly the same age. (we're all military after all).

Second, I'm not sure how he got to our first location, but I think, no... I know, the reason he want to play was because everyone else was and he want to as well.

Third, he's a friend of a friend. One of my players, (the Rigger) was stationed with him and they kinda stuck together at this command.

Forth, even outside of the game, not too many people really care for him. He's brash and tactless. At least the guy we have lined up to play his otaku replacment will lower his voice when making an off-color comment or stupid joke. He still says them though, but it's an improvement.

Fifth, he one of those people that thinks they know a lot about stuff and can not be proven otherwise. To him he has be proven 100% wrong, nothing less.

I don't really mind him, but some of the other don't care for him at all. That and the fact that he doesn't contribute much to the group (both in and out of game).
Hmmm. I'm not the best person or most sociable in the world (yes, I'm shy, deal with it. I also think every German at Fanpro has possibly put a price on my head. Having an American flag in a German forum as your avatar is not the best way to win friends and influence people.)

I've met people like that. Some just want to have a social group (yep, I'm also a loner). I'd say go with your gut. If he doesn't make an effort to be constructive or make friends with the group, then ask him to leave. OTOH, every group has its idiot. Just like every person has that idiot friend.

It takes a big person to admit they're wrong. If he's not up to it (either in an RPG or RL), dump him.

I see 2 options: either he learns maturity which translates to ingame decisions (heck, have him read Fields of Fire if you have it) or cut him. OTOH, I wouldn't want to be in his shoes when you tell him that.

TimeKeeper: This sounds just like my old group. At first we didnt want "that guy" in our group either. Then we realized that nobody else would hang out him so he would probably just come back. Come on, you know this guy is gonna keep coming back. With this in mind we decided that if it was gonna be a huge pain in the ass to get rid of him, it would be easier to just let him stay, on one condition. He had to do everything that we told him to do. At first he'll balk, he is used to this kind of shit. After he realizes your serious and he has no other options for human companionship, he'll do it. Now I recommend that you keep things reasonable, as long as its just stuff like "You have to go to the px to get us smokes." or "Go get me a soda." and you dont bust his chops too much he'll keep doing it. The group will come around pretty quick when this poor slob is waiting on them hand and foot. Sure he'll still be a dipshit, but now he is your dipshit.
J, that is disgustingly abusive.
I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that this guy is a pariah. I know ours was. If this is the case he probably faces much worse abuse every day. The military is worse than high school in this regard. This is a two way street. Now that he belongs to you, its your duty to look out for him. He is a part of the group now after all. You stick up for him when everybody else is hassling him and he'll be eternally gratefull. And as I said you need to keep it reasonable. I said send him to the store, not sodomize him with a broomstick.

Edit-Reread the first post, and that did come across a little harsh. I'll concede that this wasn't a perfect solution, but there really was no malice involved. None of us was ever mean to him and he quickly straightened out.
Black Isis
In the Shadowrun game I used to run, I brought someone who was a FoF into the game when we needed one more person after somebody left, and he was sort of the opposite of the guy TimeKeeper is having trouble with. He knew the rules and went out of his way to use character's abilities in the most broken way possible, and basically tried to get away with anything he could.

We put up with this for a while....eventually, it just killed the campaign though. I got tired of putting up with him (and his constant criticism of Shadowrun's inconsistencies, which I admit are many, but there's this thing called suspension of disbelief) and so did most of the other people (except, sadly, the person who's friend he was). The campaign died out and I had to scrap a lot of things I really would like to have used.

TimeKeeper, if you and your friends are in the material, I really hope you are all old enough and mature enough to deal with this -- if the guy is just being a jerk, and not even making an effort, cut your losses -- tell him you are really sorry, but that you are trying to run a more dark and gritty game, and if he doesn't want to play that, to find something else to do. If he just doesn't understand what the game is about, give him the SSG, or Burning Bright, or Neuromancer, or something else that will help him understand what the world is like, and tell him to read that, and give him another chance. Just don't let him pull the rest of the game down with his silliness.
Just because it might be better than some alternatives doesn't make it not disgustingly abusive.

~J, expressing the indignation of the guilty
You're all in the military, right? And this guy is causing problems for the "team" right?

Think of it this way: if he were causing this kind of problem in the field (refusing to follow direction, not knowing his field, wanting "the biggest gun"), would he not get a dressing-down from his CO?

Treat it as such. Lay down exactly what the problem is, what he needs to do to fix it, and make it clear that if he doesn't fix it, he's out. He'll either give it an honest try, or he'll keep screwing up and you'll have to get rid of him anyway to keep the game fun instead of a chore.
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