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mmu1
So I'm thinking of making a stealthy assassin / infiltrator, and I'm looking for suggestions.

The rules are as follows:

1. No bioware.

2. I want to be able to respect myself in the morning, so I'm not interested in uber-twinkage.

Are there any must-have pieces of cyberware? Non-obvious skills that come in really handy for this kind of character?

Seems to me stealth / atheltics / computers / electronics / electronics BR would be his bread and butter (along with some combat skill, obviously) - is there anything I'm missing?

For cyberware, I have so far tons of vision/hearing enhancements for staying ahead of the opposition, balance augmentor and retractable claws for scaling things, an encephalon for extra dice for technical skills, a transucer for silent communication, as well as some boosted reflexes and a smartlink.

As far as gear goes, is there anything that's a must-have for a stealthy character besides ruthenium?
toturi
I would think that a stealth PC would be easier to create as an adept. And besides, isn't rutherium uber-twinkage?
Necrotic Monkey
Here's a run of the mill build. If you can supply a little more information about the character such as his personality, ethnicity, style, reason for being who he is, and typical clientale, improvements can be made.

Human Adept (25 Build Points or Priorities B & E; hmm, how appropriate).

Attributes: Intelligence is your bread-and-butter, followed by Quickness. Charisma comes next, followed by Willpower. Body and Strength should be average; a good spy/stealthy type shouldn't need to rely on either of those except for the purpose of skill improvement.

Active Skills: Athletics, Disguise, Electronics, Electronics B/R, Etiquette (Street), Melee Skill of Choice, Negotiations (Fast Talking or Bribing), Ranged Skill of Choice, Stealth. On the rare occasion you need Computers, default from Electronics.

Knowledge Skills: Acting (Improvisation), Chemistry (Pharmaceuticals), Security Procedures, Security Systems.

Adept Powers: Improved Athletics 4 (0.75; geased), Improved Reflexes 2 (2.25; geased), Improved Stealth 4 (0.75; geased), Improved Senses 8 (pick any) (1.50; geased), Sixth Sense 1 (0.25), Traceless Walk (0.50). For senses, I'd recommend Low-Light Vision, Spatial Recognizer, High Frequency Hearing, Select Sound Filter, Vision Magnification, Dampener, Flare Compensation, and Direction Sense. I'd also ask my GM if the latter would count as an Orientation System for purposes of the Spatial Recognizer. I'd then focus on Improved Stealth and Sixth Sense as the game continues. Why Sixth Sense? Because winning Surprise should be the defacto way you win combat in most situations.

Edges & Flaws: Aptitude (Stealth), Blandness, Friendly Face, Perceptive.

Equipment: Ruthenium outfit (I like Form-Fitting Full Body Armor with Thermal Dampening 4 and Chemical Seal 1 and then a ruthenium-treated bike helmet with a fun HUD inside), lockpick gun, sequencer, electronics toolkit, disguise toolkit, and if you can afford it, a maglock passkey. I also like to go with the Pistols skill and take both an Ares Supersquirt II and a standard silenced firearm with a choice of capsule rounds and standard ammunition. Fake SINs are always nice, too.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (mmu1 @ Jul 17 2004, 10:19 PM)
So I'm thinking of making a stealthy assassin / infiltrator, and I'm looking for suggestions.

The rules are as follows:

1. No bioware.

2. I want to be able to respect myself in the morning, so I'm not interested in uber-twinkage.

Are there any must-have pieces of cyberware? Non-obvious skills that come in really handy for this kind of character?

Seems to me stealth / atheltics / computers / electronics / electronics BR would be his bread and butter  (along with some combat skill, obviously) - is there anything I'm missing?

For cyberware, I have so far tons of vision/hearing enhancements for staying ahead of the opposition, balance augmentor and retractable claws for scaling things, an encephalon for extra dice for technical skills, a transucer for silent communication, as well as some boosted reflexes and a smartlink.

As far as gear goes, is there anything that's a must-have for a stealthy character besides ruthenium?

Max out the following:

Intelligence
Charisma
Willpower

Ettiquette
Negotiation
Intimidation
Stealth
Athletics

90% of getting anywhere is acting like you belong--be it corp, government, or other. You do that, and all the cyber and ruthenium stealth suits just seem like so much useless crap.

Funny is walking into a "secure" office without even stopping because you know exactly where you're going and act like you belong, regadless of the fact that the rules state otherwise and the person behind the desk has never seen you before.
JaronK
When I made this type of character, I went for an Albino Human Adept (the albino was mostly because I wanted a ghost like character... named her Casper). I took Stealth 6, Athletics 6, Improved Ability: Stealth 6, and Improved Ability: Athletics 6, plus a few nice sensory powers (microscopic vision is huge, as is some sort of dark-seeing ability, and I like high frequency hearing so you can hear the ultrasound emitters if they have them). I didn't even bother with Improved Reflexes since she wasn't a combat character. Then I took a few social abilities... ettiquette and negociation at 6. Slap on a few social edges (good looking and knows it, friendly face, good reputation) and she's good to go. Sure, she can't fight, but who needs to fight when you can backflip out the window in case of emergency?

JaronK
BitBasher
I would personally think the concept would work a lot better as a plain human with blandness. But that's just me.
Cursedsoul
Yeah, i was going to suggest blandness. Friendly Face type of edge would work. Create an edge similar to it that would apply to on the spot "do I call security or offer to get him some coffee?" decision. Friendly face might do it with a liberal enough GM.

Maybe you could take that briefcase SMG or the guncane? Useful for blending in and distracting. The SMG might actually be serviceable if you need it, but I'm thinking the guncane could be used to set off the sprinklers, hold open a closing door, jam a door, or what have you.

How about a palm mounted body compartment with a syringe containing NSX?

"Hi, I'm new here. Name's Tom. Nice to meet you"
*offers hand for a shake, grabs, injects*

Could also be used if you get caught by a security guard who goes to detain you at which point you jab him.

Carry a small bag of marbles or ball bearings. Throw'em on the ground, toss'em around the corner, use them as distractions.

Get a suit with color changing abilities. Change the color every time you pass a security camera.

Also, get a disguise kit with a couple of wigs. ALWAYS wear a wig. People remember hairstyles more than faces, especially considering you've got blandness. Simply remove the wig and stuff it in a pocket/case etc when you're making an exit.

Also, carry cigarettes, a swiss army knife, and some gum. Offer cigs and gum to people. Maybe you can get knockout gum or some sort of poison cigs that will incapacitate the user?

Ehhh, black spray paint maybe? Slip spray? Splat glue?

Oh, why not pick up a high powered eye laser and a tool attachment so you can make quiet entrances into places you can't pick the locks of or what have you.

Since you have electronics skill ask your GM if you can simply get the PARTS for the eye and the tool laser. I don't see why you can't get a small handheld version. Simply modify the eyeball to include a grip and a battery hookup.

If it can't be included, get an arm holster custom made that's skin tight and has enough room for batteries. have the wire on a spool and attach it to the eyeball. Voila, handheld laser.

It might sound cheesy but I don't see why it would be. All you're doing is not replacing your eye, and surely you can take a contact who can supply that if the GM has a huge stick up their ass or some serious misgivings. Its not like its THAT hard to find.

Get a headset. If you're in some sort of office during business hours, pretend to be really busy talking to a client. Briefcase and file folders (have a fake one open that you can read off of, or pretend to).

Carry a coffee mug and a sandwich. Make sure the mug has coffee or some coffee like substance.

Get a small baggy and you can hide stuff in the cup. Pocket knife, holdout pistol, whatever. If you've ever seen Heist with Gene Hackman I'm thinking of the airport scene.
Azrael

If you go the adept path, adhesion (from one of TSS) goes great. So do the web shooters from the same edition.

A narcojet I found also to be pretty good - when caught, you less likely to be killed if you've only knocked their buddies out.
Odin
personally I'd also suggest you carry some monowire makes a great booby trap if you know the guards route and plan to use an alternate escape route. If placed and at knee level it can take down at least a few security personnel and the rest will be too busy calling backup/tending their friends/peeing themselves to keep up the chase. biggrin.gif
mmu1
Thanks for the ideas so far, but I'm just not that big a fan of adepts - and I hate Geasa, I don't believe in my abilities being contingent on outside factors...

Basically, the idea I'm working on is a character who can either kill characters from a distance (sniper) or through infiltration and stealth. I did consider making him charismatic, but I just sadly find myself running out of points for everything I want to do, so that might have to be cut.

Any further ideas with those caveats in mind?
Zazen
Take microscopic vision 'ware. It helps a lot with doing fine electronic work, like bypassing locks and adding bugs and so forth.

I'm a big fan of the eyeball laser microphone, too. You can aim it at some glass near a voice-activated lock and record the passcode just by looking at it from across the room. Stuff like that can be a lot of fun.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (JaronK)
When I made this type of character, I went for an Albino Human Adept

See, IMO an albino isn't a particularly stealthy concept.

Especially since stealth is easier in being noticed but not remembered (whereas if that fails, CHAR-linked skills come in handy) than trying to not be noticed at all, and if failing, failing spectacularly "Office ninja").

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)
Yeah, i was going to suggest blandness. Friendly Face type of edge would work. Create an edge similar to it that would apply to on the spot "do I call security or offer to get him some coffee?" decision. Friendly face might do it with a liberal enough GM.

Indeed. The CIA calls these people "little grey men;" A bland, undistinguished guy who people will be at ease with, and then forget after turning their back on him.

At Ease would be a great edge if it had survived 2d-->3d ed.

QUOTE (mmu1)
Basically, the idea I'm working on is a character who can either kill characters from a distance (sniper) or through infiltration and stealth. I did consider making him charismatic, but I just sadly find myself running out of points for everything I want to do, so that might have to be cut.

Then decide which he can do and focus on that. You're overextending a starting PC.
Modesitt
QUOTE
Thanks for the ideas so far, but I'm just not that big a fan of adepts - and I hate Geasa, I don't believe in my abilities being contingent on outside factors...

QUOTE
1. No bioware.


Note that this eliminates many of the most popular possibilitys for enhancing a stealthy character and techy types. I would seriously reconsider the no bioware angle if it isn't totally set in stone.

Enhanced Articulation is one of the best pieces of ware in the game, period. Reaction bonus and +1 die to almost everything, including everything you listed for bread and butter skills. Synthacardium is the cheapest skill booster in game as far as nuyen and Bio Index goes, granting two Athletics dice for 15,000 nuyen. Cerebral Boosters can grant you another die of Task Pool, albeit at a very heft nuyen cost. The Mnemonic Enhancer(Post-errata you should just get level 1) is very valuable because it knocks one karma off all of your skill-related karma costs, something useful for any skill-intensive character. Reflex Recorders are easy on bio index and nuyen and can grant bonus dice to Athletics and Stealth.

Others have already pointed out how handy Adepts are.

I'm not saying you CAN'T make a good adept without Bioware or being an adept...but there are no cybernetic to boost your Athletics or Stealth dice pools besides Move By Wire, Skillwires, Oxy-Rush nanites and to a limited degree Hydraulic Jacks and Kid Stealth Legs.

But if it is set in stone...

For vision, you'll want is Low Light Vision and Eyelights at a minimum. Image Link is nifty, but you shouldn't be just plugging things into your datajack without knowing what they are first. Keep something non-cybernetic around for plugging things into. Thermographic Vision is nice too. Flare Compensation is also cheap and useful at times, but glare modifiers are fairly unusual in general. If Essence is tight but nuyen isn't, Electrical Magnification can be useful.

Implanted weapons are, for the most part, worthless. Eye Guns, Oral Guns, and the Oral Slasher each take their own special skill to use. Treasure your skill points.

The Orientation System's effectiveness is dependent entirely on your GM. If your GM just lets you look at the damn thing whenever you like, congratulations, you just implanted a paperweight in your head.

This is something that you may not consider often: Internal Air tank. If your GM just LOVES gas, you will love it and it will love you for without you it is merely a hunk of metal. In addition, it gives you a lot more flexibility when it comes to using gas grenades yourself. No need to wait for it to disperse, just throw it in and then charge in yourself.
Kagetenshi
Technically speaking you can have bioware, just the only pieces available thus far are synthacardium and extended volume lungs smile.gif

Edit:
QUOTE (Modesitt)
Note that this eliminates many of the most popular possibilitys for enhancing a stealthy character and techy types. I would seriously reconsider the no bioware angle if it isn't totally set in stone.


This isn't his restriction. By the same token, nix on adhesion and the webshooters unless they're very much different from what I envision them to be.

~J
BitBasher
QUOTE (Odin)
personally I'd also suggest you carry some monowire makes a great booby trap if you know the guards route and plan to use an alternate escape route. If placed and at knee level it can take down at least a few security personnel and the rest will be too busy calling backup/tending their friends/peeing themselves to keep up the chase. biggrin.gif

That's not really feasable since monowire costs 3k per meter or so. it'll cost you 5-10k every time you lay down a strand.
Kagetenshi
And it's also Avail 24, which kinda nixes the at-chargen part...

~J
BitBasher
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
And it's also Avail 24, which kinda nixes the at-chargen part...

~J

Other than those two points, and how you actually string it somewhere, it is pretty damn useful! I prefer explosives though, personally. biggrin.gif
Zazen
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
QUOTE (mmu1)
Basically, the idea I'm working on is a character who can either kill characters from a distance (sniper) or through infiltration and stealth. I did consider making him charismatic, but I just sadly find myself running out of points for everything I want to do, so that might have to be cut.

Then decide which he can do and focus on that. You're overextending a starting PC.

I think it's pretty synergistic. He'll need some degree of infiltration and stealth to get to a sniping position unnoticed and then escape, which he'll already have as an infiltrator. From there you slap a rifle in his hands and give him some skill with it. He probably won't even need a (cheap as dirt) smartlink.
tjn
QUOTE (BitBasher)
I prefer explosives though, personally. biggrin.gif

Especially those that use the Stuffer Shack "Ding Dong!" announcer as the detonator...

The last thought through the Security Gaurd's mind is "Mmm... soy."
Glyph
Saying "I want a stealthy character" is kind of like saying "I want a character who is good in combat" - you find that you need to be more specialized if you don't want to be mediocre at all of it. Generally, I break stealth down into 4 general roles:

Intrusion:
Getting past physical security, whether it be a maglock, ultrasound detectors, or a retinal scan needed to enter a restricted area.

Your two big skills will be electronics and electronics B/R, for maglocks and a number of other devices. Lockpicking is more rarely needed, so rather than waste 6 skillpoints, you should simply get a Rating: 6 lockpick gun. A cyberear with recorder and playback, and a cybereye with retinal duplication, can get you past voice and retinal scanners. But the most useful cyberware is microscopic vision, which reduces your TNs by 2.


Infiltration:
Looking and acting like you belong in a restricted area. Fast-talking your way past the gate, or "explaining" your suspicious actions to a patrol. Successfully impersonating a security guard, janitor, or research assistant.

Etiquette and Negotiation are the two big skills, and having knowledge skills such as acting or psychology certainly can't hurt. For Edges, both Good Repution and Good Looking and Knows It are not the best ones for a covert ops 'runner to have. The Friendly Face Edge is better, and Blandness helps too.


Sneaking:
Moving about undetected, sneaking past guards and patrols without them being any the wiser.

Stealth is the big skill here, although Athletics is also extremely useful (allowing you to take less-guarded avenues of approach such as climbing or swimming - and it's always good to have a skill that helps you with running and dodging, when your stealth isn't good enough). A few items of cyber, such as climbing claws and balance augmentation, will help you with the athletic side of things.


Wetwork:
Taking out guards silently (it doesn't always need to be lethal). Either sniping, or getting in close to take them down with one quick shot or blow.

For sniping, all that you need is a rifle with a good scope and a halfway-decent rifles skill. You will probably be taking multiple aiming actions, and they will be unlikely to be able to use their Combat Pool, so you will be much more effective than someone involved in a running firefight. The downside is that sniping requires more planning and setup time, and changing position can be hazardous.

Up close, you need a nice, high skill in an easily concealable but very damaging weapon, such as a retractable needle dipped in narcoject (or atropine, for the more lethal types), an Ares Viper aimed at a non-armored area, a dikoted Cougar Fineblade, and so on. Plus, you want Reaction, Reaction, Reaction for those surprise tests - I would recommend at least Wired Reflexes: 2.



Generally, you are better off specializing in 2 or so of these areas. You can only really do all 4 in high build-point games, because covering them all requires you to have decent Attributes, be a real skill monkey, and have probably at least 20 points of resources.


Also, these skills, abilities, and 'ware/gear are only part of being successful. You also need a good network of contacts, reliable information about the place you are planning to hit, and much, much planning.
Cursedsoul
How about instead of wired reflexes 2 you get boosted reflexes 3?

WR2 = +4R, +2D6 init 165000 nuyen, 3 essence
BR3 = +2R, +2d6 init, 90000 nuyen, 2.8 essence.

Difference of 75000 nuyen is quite a bit. You can get a lot of good stuff for that like cyber eye mods, or even a level of synaptic accelerator.

I know you said no bioware, but for other characters who don't care its a real bargain. Same price only you get another initiative dice.

Plus you don't make the toaster jealous.
Aesir
When reading some of the other responses I realised that being a plain, short, bald guy would be best. A timid, kindly, former bullied upon psycopat that nobody would suspect of having any kind of competence what so ever, eccept maybe a knack for computers or math. smile.gif
Cheesy Answer
Sort of defeats the purpose of stealth if your boosted reflexes make you pull out a gun and blow away the first suspicious person who taps you on the shoulder. biggrin.gif
Cursedsoul
To my understanding Boosted isn't as bad a wired because its a natural boost. You simply have more neural pathways or whatever crappy BS answer is in the book.

Wired is like, forcibly implanting metallic things and artificial whatnots. That's going to make you a lot more jumpy because its unnatural, so it's only going to do what its programmed to.

With boosted your brain can adjust to it, and will in short order. Same thing for wired, but I imagine boosted doesn't require a reflex trigger to not turn into Idranktoomuchcaffeinethismorningman. You would get used to it and learn how to control it naturally.

Not able to to turn it on/off but more along the lines of not going crazy when someone slams a door.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Aesir @ Jul 18 2004, 05:47 PM)
When reading some of the other responses I realised that being a plain, short, bald guy would be best. A timid, kindly, former bullied upon psycopat that nobody would suspect of having any kind of competence what so ever, eccept maybe a knack for computers or math.  smile.gif

Well...

Someone who can carry off the appearance of being "plain, short, bald", and is perceived as a "timid, kind, former bullied upon psycopat [sic]" but is in reality a highly-trained government operative.

Or Valerie Plame.

QUOTE (Zazen)
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jul 18 2004, 02:43 PM)
QUOTE (mmu1)
Basically, the idea I'm working on is a character who can either kill characters from a distance (sniper) or through infiltration and stealth. I did consider making him charismatic, but I just sadly find myself running out of points for everything I want to do, so that might have to be cut.

Then decide which he can do and focus on that. You're overextending a starting PC.

I think it's pretty synergistic. He'll need some degree of infiltration and stealth to get to a sniping position unnoticed and then escape, which he'll already have as an infiltrator. From there you slap a rifle in his hands and give him some skill with it. He probably won't even need a (cheap as dirt) smartlink.

Um.... No.

Perhaps, depending on his environment there might be a overlap of some of those abilities on the sniper's part. But in general, I can't see what skills a sniper and a infiltrator have in common other than the general "Stealth" skill. Try going to opposite route. What skills does a achetypal sniper have the correlate with skills an infiltrator would need? You're just pressing for a iniltration sniper, but it doesn't work in the opposite with sniping infiltrators.
BitBasher
Actually IIRC boosted makes you jumpy exactly like wired and all other forms of technological reflex enhancement except for bioware.
Cheesy Answer
QUOTE
With boosted your brain can adjust to it, and will in short order. Same thing for wired, but I imagine boosted doesn't require a reflex trigger to not turn into Idranktoomuchcaffeinethismorningman. You would get used to it and learn how to control it naturally.


Not everyone plays by the same house rules though. smile.gif
BitBasher
EDIT: I'm a moron. embarrassed.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
I'd like a page reference to how Boosted doesn't affect people like Wired does in causing them to be overly excited to outside stimuli.

There's a reason the Reflext Trigger was invented. Or, so I thought. Boosted, being a crappy, poor man's Wired, doesn't strike me as being in any way advantageous to Wired in any manner. Especially in it conveying some magical ability to temper people to being overly jumpy and quick on the draw.
Necrotic Monkey
There is no page for that, because it does. Synaptic Accelerators or Kamikaze, on the other hand, do not since the penalty only applies to cybernetic implants. I personally think drugs should be included, but that's just me.
Kagetenshi
I agree that drugs should be included. The thing about Boosted is that, as a treatment, you can't trigger it. You don't have the option of using a reflex trigger, rather than getting it automatically.

~J
Cursedsoul
I think there was a discussion about this a month or so ago. It was about the extent that WR makes you jumpy.

You have to common sense this. Just because the book doesn't say I can't fly doesn't make it possible for mundanes.

Part of the discussion came to adjustment. You come out of surgery with a brand spankin' new WR/BR system. No matter which it is, you're going to be jumpy, nervous, etc, etc. Your body isn't acclimated to the changes yet. It'll take you a few weeks to adjust.

Its like the sleep cycle. You develop a routine. You can change it, but it takes time.

Boosted reflexes augments the body's natural reflexes. I swear I read something in one of these books giving a paragraph or so of explanation, but I could be confusing this with what was discussed. Either way it says natural, so the exact mechanics of it aren't really necessary for what we're talking about.

Wired Reflexes IMPLANTS THINGS. The body can't control what isn't natural. It can influence and adapt but it will never be good as natural. Take for example the modern day prosthetics. Say I lost my arm so now I have this artificial replacement. I can manipulate it for simple ranges of motion, but its not nearly as good as a real arm nor am I able to control it like one.

Thus, the WR will always be active and the body cannot control it. Whatever technology is used to connect it to your senses isn't something your brain can get control of. Without that reflex trigger all you can do is adjust to constantly wanting to draw your weapons and defend yourself. It'll take a while and a lot of willpower, but you can get used to it.

Boosted does the same thing only its homegrown. Your brain can learn to control it and adapting to life in the fast lane will be significantly easier.

Again, you can't turn it on or off, nor can you reduce the effective level of the boost but you're going to be in control of your reactions a lot more than WR. Once you're used to it and your senses are adapted to what's really a threat and what isn't you aren't going to be super hyperactive man. You're always going to be a bit jumpy, but its going to appear that you're just a jumpy person. To my understanding that's going to be pretty normal in the 2060's, definitely for "criminals in their element". It'd be expected I imagine.

With WR its not going to be natural. Its like cyberlimbs, spend enough time and something won't feel right. Your company has a decent shot at figuring out you've got a limb. WR will be harder to detect, but a sense of "this person's on edge, but a bit TOO on edge" may manifest itself.

Whether it matters or not probably depends on their own paranoia levels and the blood alcohol level. wink.gif

Necrotic Monkey
Tell yourself what you like, but the rules are quite explicit. Any cybernetic boost to Initiative gives you the jumpiness problem unless it expressly says otherwise. This includes Boosted Reflexes which makes no such statement. If Wired Reflexes without the Reflex Trigger were the only cybernetic implant to suffer this problem, then it would be a problem of Wired Reflexes not a blanket rule for all cybernetic Initiative boosts.

Synaptic Accelerators, being bioware, is immune to this effect as is all bioware unless it expressly says otherwise.
Cursedsoul
Can you point me to a page with that rule stated because otherwise its down to GM ruling.

And its not really cybernetic. WR is. BR is an electrochemical treatment to naturally augment the body's natural reflexes. Where's the cyber? hmm? Point it out to me and I'll buy it.

Its paid for with essence, but in all honesty it shouldn't be. The BBB is meant to be stand-alone. BR is really bioware, but bioware didn't exist in the BBB so its still cyberware.

Frankly, BR should be included in the M&M under bioware. It does what a synaptic accelerator does.

Now BR doesn't say WHAT is included in the electrochemical procedure. It probably stimulates an increase in the neural pathways. Its not artificial because if it were you could remove it. But no, its permanent.

And did you read the entire post? Did you interpret? I said you'd GET USED TO IT JUST LIKE WITH WIRED REFLEXES. Capped to get your attention. WR will seem artifical if you spend enough time with someone who has it active, just like a cyberlimb would. It'll be harder to detect and its not like you can say "oh he's got WR" more like what I said, "something doesn't feel right. He's just a bit too jumpy.

As used to it as you can get, your brain can never control it as well as with BR. You cannot adapt to it. You are stuck with it.

Its going to be harder to get adjusted to the WR because its not a constant thing like BR would be. WR would fire off whenever it gets triggered, which can be a door slamming, someone yelling, someone attaching two metal objects together that sound like a gun getting cocked, whatever your imagination can think of.

BR will be harder to adapt to INITIALLY because its 24/7. WR at least doesn't do that. People adapt quickly to new situations, its one of the few gifts we can all claim a part of. Being forced to live on the edge without an avenue of escape forces you to adapt to it quicker or die.

If you're a shadowrunner I think its safe to assume you made the leap unless you want to be otherwise.

So yeah, BR is basically bioware. Since its so cheap compared to a SA I can live with my GM being a dick and forcing me to not shoot someone opening their car door, and I can even live with it being called cyberware. Game balance kind of demands it, at least until its ascertained as to what it is exactly.

This is just what I think. It makes sense, just not in the senseless world of SR. Its pretty obvious that a lot of things in these rulebooks fell off and hit its head trying to slide down the logic pole, so discussion about it is quite easy.
Necrotic Monkey
Oy.

Man & Machine, p. 45, "Effects of Increased Reflexes." Easily found in the Index.

Despite your preference to call it bioware, Boosted Reflexes is clearly and without doubt labeled as cyberware. It is, in no way, bioware. Whether it should be or not is a moot point. It's cyberware and is prone to the jumpiness factor. It's always been an inferior choice over Wired Reflexes for that very reason, amongst others.
BitBasher
QUOTE
Its paid for with essence, but in all honesty it shouldn't be. The BBB is meant to be stand-alone. BR is really bioware, but bioware didn't exist in the BBB so its still cyberware.

Frankly, BR should be included in the M&M under bioware. It does what a synaptic accelerator does.


The game designers disagree with you. This item was added in the first book that introduced bioware, it was originally in an expansion book and was only added to the BBB in 3rd edition. Yet, in the previous editions as in this one, it is specifically and purposely cyberware, as it is a purely technological process, not involved with bioware at all. It is also non removable, well at least untis SOTA came out.

It has always been an inferior yet chepaer alternative to wired reflexes for those that couldn't affors the real thing.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Cursedsoul)
Now BR doesn't say WHAT is included in the electrochemical procedure. It probably stimulates an increase in the neural pathways. Its not artificial because if it were you could remove it. But no, its permanent.

No, it probably soaks the peripheral nervous system in some conductivity-enhancing chemical. If the neural pathways were being augmented, then the jumpiness probably wouldn't be a factor, but the game is very explicit that it is a factor.

~J
TheScamp
QUOTE
This item was added in the first book that introduced bioware, it was originally in an expansion book and was only added to the BBB in 3rd edition.

As a side note, this isn't exactly true. Shadowtech first introduced Bioware, but Boosted showed up much earlier in the Street Samurai Catalog.

And the rule clearly states that it applies to "wired reflexes or any other kind of cybernetic reflex enhancements". Even with the Bioware category available, Boosted is still squarely in the Cyber category. Whether it's a completely artificial treatment to existing neural pathways or the implantation of little electronic boxes, cybernetic enhancements are not natural. Boosted is no more homegrown in this regard then is Wired.
BitBasher
Holy crap, you're right! I thought Boosted showed up first in Shadowtech! My bad! notworthy.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
Holy crap, Batman! We're OT!
BitBasher
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Holy crap, Batman! We're OT!

Right you are Robin! grinbig.gif
Cursedsoul
When are we NOT off-topic?

My problem with boosted reflexes being cyberware is you aren't replacing any of your meat bod with metal parts, gadgets, and assorted doohickeys.

The way it reads its certainly not cyberware. Change or expand the definition and I'll buy it because its like, the only piece of cyberware to not artificially replace something.

Oh and thanks for the rule check. I had a pretty strong feeling that what you were saying was in the rules somewhere, but I wasn't about to go check the books for something that honestly doesn't matter.

And can any of you explain to me why the jumpiness is a permanent issue for it? Like I keep saying it boosts the natural reflexes and its permanent. Your brain is forced to adapt to it and because its natural you can learn to control it a lot better. I'm not saying you aren't prone to jumpiness but I AM saying you're less likely to succumb to it.

Wired Reflexes fires off when you detect an offensive action of any kind. You tell me how easy it is to stop a machine from doing its job if its not already turned off. Its something you can learn to deal with, but never to the extent of Boosted. With boosted its less likely you're going to lose control after you'v had it for a while and you're certainly going to adapt to it PDQ because you have NO OTHER CHOICE. Given the option of death or adaptation, your body will go for survival ten times out of ten.

Its also going to appear a helluva lot more natural than wired EVER WILL. Wired will cause you to twitch every few seconds in kind of a spasm I imagine because its not constant as WR isn't boosting anything if you aren't in combat. Boosted will make you just appear constantly on edge and nervous. Who's going to suspect anything more than a case of paranoia? Certainly not going to alarm anyone out in public unless they themselves are paranoid and well that really doesn't matter now does it? silly.gif

None of you are responding to this. Instead you're wrongfully assuming I'm saying the following: BOOSTED REFLEXES DOES NOT CAUSE TWITCHINESS. This is INCORRECT.

Instead I'm trying to say: BOOSTED REFLEXES DOES NOT CAUSE TWITCHINESS AS OFTEN AS WIRED REFLEXES NOR IS IT GOING TO APPEAR AS ARTIFICIAL AS WIRED REFLEXES BECAUSE ITS A CONSTANT STATE OF UNEASINESS UNLIKE THE SPURTS AND SPASMS OF WIRED REFLEXES.

Now by extention I'd also like to know the following: what, if any differences in TN would you apply? If you apply sense, you can learn to control it much better than the automation of the WR. It'll take time but it could be done.

Perhaps and edge? "Extreme Self Control" or something. 1 point for boosted, 2 points for WR. Do not apply the additional +1TN to all perception tests per extra initiative dice for determining character actions when resisting the effects of reflex enhancement.

2 points for WR because of what I've been yelling but also because you can negate the additional 1d6 initiative dice, whereas BR is only +2 max. Honestly, for replacing 5/6 of your being with METAL GOD DAMN PARTS shouldn't be as cheap as the replacing ~1/2 your being with electrochemical hooziwhatsits.

BR isn't really inferior to WR since you can also get the SA. Unless your GM has a serious stick up their ass, its compatible with BR.

So WR3 is 5 (egh) essence, +6R +3d6I
And BR3 + SA 2 = 2.8e, +2R, +4d6 I.

The max initiative you can roll with WR would be +24. With the SA and BR3 its 26.

Average rolls of 3 in init dice and its WR for +15 and BR+SA for 14.

No real difference in initiative unless you're a shitty roller like I tend to be, but it won't matter WHAT you have if you roll badly.

Cost wise its 290000 for BR + SA. 500000 for WR3.

So by itself BR is inferior stat wise, but a steal bonus wise as you can get more bang for your buck.

Its not munchkin if that's what you're thinking because if you're going for WR3 that's just "as bad" and someone who doesn't want to pay 5e but still wants Initiative up the wahzoo can go with what I suggested for a cheaper all around alternative.

No reflex trigger does kind of suck, but setting off every fragging alarm on the planet with that WR blows ass too.

No VCR? not really a problem because VCRs are so damned expensive anyways. No WR makes sense anyways because you'd probably explode from all the stress and its tremendously munchy.

Can't be removed? I don't think that matters. Who's going to remove their WR once its implanted? At least, not of their own willpower. I'm sure you can salvage some of the parts if you were into that sort of thing. wink.gif
Cheesy Answer
Thing is, nothing in the books mention anything about a person getting used to cybernetic reflex enhancements. You can say that that's how it works, and implement a house rule, but to use it to argue a canon point is just plain wrong.
Necrotic Monkey
QUOTE
Instead I'm trying to say: BOOSTED REFLEXES DOES NOT CAUSE TWITCHINESS AS OFTEN AS WIRED REFLEXES NOR IS IT GOING TO APPEAR AS ARTIFICIAL AS WIRED REFLEXES BECAUSE ITS A CONSTANT STATE OF UNEASINESS UNLIKE THE SPURTS AND SPASMS OF WIRED REFLEXES.

That's true to an extent. The twitchiness factor is directly related to the number of Initiative dice the boost grants. Boosted Reflexes 1 and Wired Reflexes 1 have identical twitchiness factors. Levels 2 and 3 do not; Boosted is more mild in that regard.
Zeel De Mort
True. The flavour text for WR also mentions that "Users of wired reflexes tend to be twitchy, especially if they lack a reflex trigger". Whereas BR doesn't mention anything about it. They do both, of course, suffer the effects of the rules on p45 of M&M, but the flavour text does, very slightly, lead you to believe that WR is a bit more twitchy.

...and then there's MBW...

At level 4 it adds the most (cyber) dice to initiative out of the lot. So the guy with that is REALLY on edge, although that's pretty much the least of his worries I suppose.
Cursedsoul
If its not mention its not canon. silly.gif Minor nitpick. You can't claim it is anymore than I can so take that. nyahnyah.gif

We don't talk about MBW. biggrin.gif
TheScamp
QUOTE
The way it reads its certainly not cyberware. Change or expand the definition and I'll buy it because its like, the only piece of cyberware to not artificially replace something.

Bone lacing replaces nothing, it simply adds a latticework of the certain material to the bones. An electrochemical treatment could very easily do exactly the same thing to the nervous system, adding some sort of superconductive layer to the spinal column, for example.

QUOTE
BOOSTED REFLEXES DOES NOT CAUSE TWITCHINESS AS OFTEN AS WIRED REFLEXES NOR IS IT GOING TO APPEAR AS ARTIFICIAL AS WIRED REFLEXES BECAUSE ITS A CONSTANT STATE OF UNEASINESS UNLIKE THE SPURTS AND SPASMS OF WIRED REFLEXES.

Shockingly enough, this is already taken into account by the current rules (as the Monkey said).
Cheesy Answer
QUOTE (Cursedsoul)
If its not mention its not canon. silly.gif Minor nitpick. You can't claim it is anymore than I can so take that. nyahnyah.gif

You're right. Except that I'm not the one claiming it. You are. nyahnyah.gif
Necrotic Monkey
QUOTE (Cursedsoul)
If its not mention its not canon. silly.gif Minor nitpick. You can't claim it is anymore than I can so take that. nyahnyah.gif

M&M p. 45 is rather definitive on the subject. Your personal interpretation has no foundation in the rules whatsoever.
Fygg Nuuton
also muscle replacement doesn't replace anything, if you read the text on it
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