Hey all,
I've been entertaining the idea of using something like brass knuckles (well oricalcum, in this case) as a weapon focus for an unarmed adept. I thought I'd post the idea here for you guys to pick over so I can get a better idea of the pros and cons. Here's what I've thought of so far...

Most adepts who do use weapon foci can dikote them, giving them a tremendous advantage. (+4 Str S damage on a Katana, for example, with +1 reach)

Unarmed adepts lack the ability to get the benefit of the weapon or dikoting, but hey, that's part of being unarmed right? They get maneuvers and all that.

What annoys me though, is weapon foci provide several benefits (extra dice, bonuses on certain creatures, etc.) that unarmed adepts can't match. +4 melee combat dice for 20 karma? Sign me up!

Seriously, is the ability to buy distance strike / killing hands supposed to be the balance to that?

Would a brass knuckles type unarmed weapon focus be unreasonable? obviously it shouldn't stack with killing hands (you need to use the actual weapon, and killing hands seems like discharging lethal energy through your actual hands) or distance strike. A common sense rule should prohibit it from use with kicking styles (tae kwon do, kick boxing.) But if an adept felt like going that road, what problems would you all see with allowing it?

First and foremost being canon's lack of stats for brass knuckles in the first place

Okay, I know you can get the stats, but personally I wouldn't mind if an adept player decided to get orichalcum hardliner gloves or something, but that's just me.

Just use hardliner gloves as a starting place.

Also, make sure you know how your GM feels about them. His attitude is the one that matters.

i personally allow killing hands to work with hardliner/brass knuckle foci, and even for those foci to work with kick attacks or whatever. it doesn't seem more powerful than 'normal' weapon foci to me; regular weapon foci often get reach, and it's not hard to get a weapon focus with base S damage (dikote, baybee!).

Just go with the shockglove weapon foci. (STR-1)M Stun + 7S Stun with all the fun muscle twitchy effects of other tazery weapons.

indeed.

I feel that as long as the focus is a melee weapon, go for it.
I have no problem with brass knuckle foci, cue ball foci, or hell, even chainsaw foci.

But there's no bonus for killing hands or whatnot with it. It's still a weapon focus (although, due to the vagaries of the rules is wielded by unarmed combat) so you're not really unarmed, i.e. able to use killing hands or distance strike.

Don

Unique Foci: Unarmed Focus.

Same rules, same benefits, and same costs as a weapon focus but allows you to use it while unarmed. They do not have to be worn on your arms or feet anymore than other standard foci, they simply help you channel your magic. Problem solved.

I disagree, mostly because it has slippery slope written on it. It sounds almost too much like a phys ad power focus, which some fan site turned up. It's also moving away from the basic portion of the thing, i.e. the weapon. Shock gloves and some sort of weaponness are okay by me, but you solution opens up all kinds of "If I can do that, then why not this or this or this" questioning, which I'd care to avoid.

No offense, but YMMV.

Don

Adept #1 with Killing Hands vs. Adept #2 with a knife. Adept #1's only real advantage is that he can attack spirits and astral entities with his weapon.

Adept #1 with Killing Hands and Unarmed Focus vs. Adept #2 with a Weapon Focus: Knife. Adept #1's only advantage is now removed. No other changes occur.

I don't see the problem.

Not really. Killing hands is varaible. If the adept's killing hands is S or D, then what happens? His base damage code is higher than what a dikoted weapon focus could equal. Assuming all is equal, Adept 1 will still have the advantage due to this damage code and also whether he wants to stun or kill. The weapon-focus adept doesn't have this possibility without pulling punches, i.e. being actively less effective. Both adepts require astral perception to pull off the attack astral entities.

My problem is that your suggestion of a unique focus without a weapon content creates adept power locks, which mimic a power while not being used for the power as other foci are. Allowing it to work with killing hands is also way too powerful, IHO compared in you example.

Don

Just a thought....
For the gigantic amount of cash a rating 6 weapon focus costs, couldn't you just cash for karma for enough to initiate 3 times and get the same 6 dice, as well as some cool metamagic?

<edit>I guess you'd still not have the reach and the str+3M damage (I wouldn't allow dikoting after making a focus. You want dikote, take the TN hit for enchanting). </edit>

You both missed the point entirely.

There is no change between the two scenarios except that the guy with Killing Hands loses one of his advantages and they both gained the same number of extra dice. Between the two scenarios, nothing else has changed. Whatever other advantages one side had before they both got a focus remain after they have the focus.

But you're forgetting that the circumstances between the two are not equal. Essentially, the adept with killing hands is coming out ontop due to his variable damage code, which will more than likely do more base damage than the knife or the weapon focus. The other guy is still playing catch up and the extra dice, which both recieve in equal amounts, do not mitigate this difference between Adept 1 and Adept 2.

Also factor in the social, consequental comments of BitBasher. Essentially, Adept 1 is getting away with an armed combat attack without 1) needing the Armed Combat skill(s), 2) having an obvious focus (heck, under your paradigm and answer, there's nothing stopping the adept from making his focus his underwear. A bit outrageous, I admit, but it's the farthest, yet most logical conclusion along BitBasher's path of logic).

Don

4 power points will cost, if you're a member of a magical group, 42 points of karma. How much are you spending on your dikoted combat axe weapon focus?

Here's what I've learned: gun > staff > sword > hands.

It's all about the reach or the ability to reach-out and smack someone before they can smack you.

In a modern age, hands only melee is a real hardcore route, but great when other weapons aren't an option. It's not a balance issue, but more of a facts-of-life issue from my standpoint.

Yes you are. It costs a lot more to make a reach two focus than a reach 0 focus. And you have to carry around your giant deadly weapon. Sure, you may own a cool weapon focus, but it doesn't help you in a fight, cause it's sitting in the Super Kombi in the parking garage across the street which is about to be stolen to buy 2 more days worth of BTL's for a wire head who won't even recognize the value of the axe.
Anyway, I'm of the opinion that the unarmed way doesn't need to be fixed. It has it's own advantages. Much like the difference between a bow and an assault cannon. There are times you wish you had the other one, no matter which one you have.

<sighs> Again, you're not getting the point.

Whatever advantages an adept with Killing Hands has over another opponent remain exactly the same -- with only one difference, that being the LOSS of being the only one able to attack astral entities on their own ground -- with or without a focus. There is no balance problems here. None whatsoever. The balance remains exactly the same in both circumstances, the only change is BOTH sides gain bonus dice in the contest.

Concealability is a non-issue; whatever advantage or disadvantage the Killing Hands adept has with it is unchanged with or without a focus.

Damage Code isa non-issue; whatever advantage or disadvantage the Killing Hands adept has with it is unchanged with or without a focus.

Reach is a non-issue; whatever advantage or disadvantage the Killing Hands adept has with it is unchanged with or without a focus.

Killing Hands is a power wholly independant from the focus. It's like complaining that an adept with Quick Draw shouldn't be able to take a weapon focus over an adept who doesn't have Quick Draw. While the Killing Hands adept might have spent 4 Power Points on Killing Hands, the other adept might have bought Quick Draw, Improved Ability: Melee Weapon 4, and Counterattack 3. None of that matters, however, because that's a completely different issue.

The only change between an adept with Killing Hands and any other adept both gaining a focus to improve their combat ability is that the Killing Hands adept is actually LOSING an advantage. In all other ways, they are in the exact same position they were beforehand.

I'm completely getting the point. The point is, unarmed is in many ways less effective than armed combat. The lack of a weapon focus is one. If all things are equal, having a weapon is better than not having one.
But, this lack is at least balanced by all the other issues, such as metal detectors, possibility of being stolen, adding distance strike or delay damage, being able to use maneuvers, the huge cost in cash, etc etc etc.
In short, I think that the unarmed focus takes away a disadvantage without adding a new one. If the system was broken, no one would use unarmed specialists, but they do.

My troll phys add with killing hands D and distance strike is waiting for anyone with the same amount of karma and cash to come see him with a weapon focus.

Being able to use a weapon focus isn't an advantage - it's an option. You don't get it for free. It's a method of spending hundreds of thousands of nuyen that is available to armed combat specialists, but not hand-to-hand fighters, and there's absolutely no reason why it should not be. You've already mentioned that there are better ways to spend the money (converting it to karma) than to buy a weapon focus. Under the current system, that's what an unarmed adept would be doing. Allowing him to buy a weapon focus by no means disrupt the balance, because it means that he won't be able to channel that money towards other things which you argued, and I agreed, to be more cost-effective.

So, you agree that a weapon focus which doesn't have to be wielded like a weapon focus may not be the best idea?

I'd allow the brass knuckles or hardliner gloves as foci, they're perfectly reasonable, even if I think they're a waste. But a whole new focus that turns your whole body into a magic weapon is way beyond anything I'd let into my game.

Oh, I see.
I guess we disagree on that as well. I'd rate any weapon focus as overpowering the magic of the killing hands. Either you're an unarmed fighter or you're not. I wouldn't let killing hands, delay damage or distance strike work with gloves or brass knuckles. You're bypassing the entire spirit of the word "unarmed".
The previously mentioned scenario of shock gloves doing StrS physical then 9S stun doesn't work right in my head. Even if the gloves are magical some how, I'd say that they interfere with the natural working of the killing hands magic.

You do realize that Killing Hands L, a 0.5 point power, "turns your whole body into a magic weapon" right? Just one without any bonus dice.

Regardless of individual opinions, there's no reason that an "Unarmed Weapon Focus" is unbalancing, EndGame. You'll just need to ask your GM about it. When you do, just let him know that it's identical in all ways to any other weapon focus but only applies to unarmed attacks (Reach 0). The costs, benefits, and hindrances are all going to be identical to any other Reach 0 Weapon Focus. See what he has to say on it.

obviously i can make weapon foci out of my kinjo™ brand shock boots.

Here's a strange thought: Living telesma. Enchant the adept as a weapon focus.
Maybe I'm just sleep deprived, but that sounds like a cool idea.
Brings new meaning to the term 'virgin telesma'.
Could this actually work?

Hmmm. There has to be some sort of orchicalcum (bone lacing anyone?) on him in an indivisible fashion. The adept would have to pay the karma costs to bond with himself and abide by all the problems that a having a weapon focus entails.

I wouldn't allow it though. Somehow I can't imagine someone wanting to be forged.

Don

If the adept gets turned into a weapon focus, can we dikote him/her?

If you are DiKoted, do you take half damage from auto-fire flechette pistols?

Unless you're having sex with it. No, wait, that's ally spirits.

...and you don't have to be "forged," premade telesma are valid.
N. Monkey addressed the orichalcum issue for me.

I'd guess that anyone with an essence of six would count as "virgin talesma", which would drop the cost some. How much karma does it cost to bond yourself <edit>I'm pretty sure I'm not supposed to say what was in this space</edit>

What was in that space was hilarious.
Although a bit scary coming from someone named Bearclaw. (ouch!)