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Raife
One of my players was asking about Dikote for a weapon focus. We looked through the books but couldn't spot anything about what temperature Oricalcum melts at, ect.

In my mind, dikote would not work on a weapon focus for two reasons. First the temperatures required to dikote a weapon focus would burn/melt the handle, thus destroying the magic properties of the weapon. Dikoting the blade before hand would leave it out of the enchanting process, thus preventing it from being magical as well.

If steps could be taken to prevent the problems I see above, dikote would basically cover the entire weapon, which in my book is like a really thin sheath. I don't know if that also gives the weapon focus a problem, but I would guess it does.

However I am not adverse to letting a player dikote a weapon focus. I do want to stall him long enough to find a plausible reason it would work, and then weave it into the story some how.

What do you guys think about Dikote on a weapon focus? Am I totally off base on how difficult it would be to do? Is there a spot in the books that discusses this and I just missed it?
JaronK
The truth is, Dikote wouldn't work on a number of weapons. Katanas, for example, would lose their precision folded metals. It's one of those mystical "don't worry they know how to do it" things in the game that probably shouldn't work, yet does anyway.

JaronK
Luke Hardison
It seems like you have one of two common misconceptions about foci (but correct me if I'm wrong)

Misconception 1: A weapon or other foci must be made entirely of Orichalcum. Actually, MitS only states that a focus must contain Orichalcum. You don't need very much, and that could easily be added to a weapon after the dikoting process. I think the amount is 10 grams, plus 10 per unit of length required. That's a max of 30 grams (think 30 Orichalcum paper clips) for a pole arm. Not much.

Misconception 2: The user must be touching the Orichalcum. Nope, it just has to be part of the whole. The blade could be entirely Orichalcum, or only the 20 grams necessary for a sword, all located in the crossguard, or pommel, or nestled around the tang under the handle.

In short, there's no reason to disallow dikoting of weapon foci for mechanics reasons. If you choose to disallow it for balance reasons, that's your call, of course. My suggestion, before trying that, would be my own personal house rule, where dikote adds +2 power to anything it coats, edged or not, and does not add damage levels in any case. But, again, that's the realm of house rules and is entirely your call.
Herald of Verjigorm
The enchanting rules don't keep the need for orichalcum in weapon foci. At least if it is counted, it's in the base price and adding addition orichalcum has the normal benefit.

As for dikote, there are two options that I allow.
1) dikote before enchanting: higher enchanting TN, full benefits
2) dikote after enchanting: the weapon focus still provides the dice bonus but until the dikote layer is removed it will not have the special properties about damage
Cray74
QUOTE (Raife)
One of my players was asking about Dikote for a weapon focus.  We looked through the books but couldn't spot anything about what temperature Oricalcum melts at, ect.

In my mind, dikote would not work on a weapon focus for two reasons.  First the temperatures required to dikote a weapon focus would burn/melt the handle, thus destroying the magic properties of the weapon.  Dikoting the blade before hand would leave it out of the enchanting process, thus preventing it from being magical as well.

1) I see no problem with putting dikoting on orichalicum. There's several tricks that can be used to deposit diamond on surfaces with melting points below that of the normal dikote operating temperature. However, I'd figure some magical uber metal like orichalicum would survive without the tricks.

2) IMO, you cannot add dikoting *after* enchantment. It alters the design of the weapon and thus ruins the magic. Or something.

3) Adding the dikoting *before* enchantment is the way to go. It'd be no different than using an ultra advanced steel alloy or cermet for the blade - the dikoting would just be another artificial material factored into the design.

Magical weapons needn't be all-natural, organically-grown steel; free range, corn-fed wood; and pesticide-free hand-cultivated orichalicum. They can use artificial materials like dikoting, too.
mfb
indeed. it's easier to make a focus (of any type) when you use virgin telesma, such as cray74's hilarious examples above, but it's definitely not necessary. hell, the virgin telesma doesn't even have to be a part of the focus, when you're finished--the telesma might be consumed as part of the enchanting process in other ways. maybe your corn-fed wood is used to make an athame for gather mana in the correct patterns, or whatever; when you're done, the wood becomes inert and non-telesma.
Capt. Dave
Just add the dikoting as you enchant it. Make it part of the focus design formula. Boom.
Hell, use a chemistry facility and enchanting shop to make dikote radicals,
but that may be going too far, however.
Bearclaw
In my campaign, I ruled that dikoting a focus is like bronzing your gold ring. You get something bronze, until you scrape the bronze off.
If you dikote a katana weapon focus, you get a katana that does Str+4 S damage, and has no magical properties. I ruled that it's a complete diamond sheath around the focus, and it blocks all magical properties (which does have advantages). I can't back it up with any canon, but I like it.
My plan B is that you destroy the magical properties in the furnace, and it's just a katana now.
If you dikote a katana that will one day be a weapon focus, I have no problem. But it raises your base TN from 5 (low tech items) to 8 (high tech alloy). And you still get your Str+4 S damage, plus all those extra dice.

Also, the ENTIRE focus must be MADE OF virgin talesma to get the bonus. Talesma is not an ingredient, it's all the ingredients.
The item to be enchanted is the material basis or form of the focus, or telesma
Magic in the Shadows, pg 43.
Bob the Ninja
QUOTE
I ruled that it's a complete diamond sheath around the focus, and it blocks all magical properties (which does have advantages).


Diamond blocks magic eh? Is that like lead blocking Superman's X-ray vision?

Seriously, look at the target numbers for highly processed goods. If you can find a magic user able to hit that number, then you've already reached a high level of skill. I don't see the problem of letting this go.
Bearclaw
QUOTE (Bob the Ninja)
QUOTE
I ruled that it's a complete diamond sheath around the focus, and it blocks all magical properties (which does have advantages).


Diamond blocks magic eh? Is that like lead blocking Superman's X-ray vision?

Seriously, look at the target numbers for highly processed goods. If you can find a magic user able to hit that number, then you've already reached a high level of skill. I don't see the problem of letting this go.

Yes, it's exactly like lead blocking Supermans X-Ray vision. It accomplished what I wanted, without having to destroy the weapon. It's not that it's diamond, it's that it's a complete, heat welded sheath around the whole thing.

I agree about the increased TN's. I said I'm fine with dikote before enchanting, just not after.
Jason Farlander
Meh.

If you Dikote™ the weapon focus after enchantment, the damage bonus from the Dikote™ does not carry over to astral combat. If you Dikote™ the weapon prior to its enchantment, it does. Weapon foci are sufficiently pain-in-the-assive to acquire that I dont feel any real need to make them gimpy.
tjn
QUOTE ( MitS @ pg. 42)
...this orange-gold alloy is utterly absurd from any metalurgical point of view.


IE don't think of it as a metal, rather it's something else. Therefore things like melting points may or may not apply. Personally I'm of the view it's akin to a manifestation of pure mana or some drek, YMMV.

And if we wanna tie in Earthdawn... how does something containing True Fire melt?

http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/orichalcum.html for a more in-depth view on orichalcum.

As far as burning/melting the handle... take it off before dikoting? One could replace it if they were stupid enough to leave it in the furnace (which would require a new enchanting I assume), but there's nothing stopping them from just taking off the parts that wont survive the process and putting them back on afterward.

Why would coating it provide a problem? If it did, magic would be worthless. Is it raining? It's now coated with water. Someone toss a smoke grenade? Coated in smoke particles.

Instead, think of it akin armor to a metahuman's aura. One can still see and effect a metahuman's aura through armor. Magically it doesn't mean much either way, but physically it does protect the meat bag that generates that aura.

So dikoting a weapon focus should help with physical damage, but as far as spirits or astral combat is concerned, it's meaningless.
Raife
I always assumed that deconstructing a weapon focus (ie removing the handle) would destroy the magical properties.

I guess my misconception about the enchanting process was that enchanting happened WHILE the weapon was being forged, but I have read over it and I do indeed see that the weapon is forged and then later enchanted, the trace amounts of oricalcum in the weapon absorb the magic.

This would make enchanting a blade that is already dikoted possible. I do believe that coating a weapon focus AFTER the fact would cause its magical properties to be "supressed" underneath an ultra-think diamond sheath.

This makes a lot of sense to me now.
Cray74
QUOTE (Raife)
This would make enchanting a blade that is already dikoted possible. I do believe that coating a weapon focus AFTER the fact would cause its magical properties to be "supressed" underneath an ultra-think diamond sheath.

Not to nitpick spelling, but is that meant to be "ultra-thin" or "ultra-thick"?
Glyph
If a player wanted a dikoted weapon focus at char-gen, I would probably simply have him add the cost of the dikote treatment to the cost of the weapon focus. If a player wanted a dikoted weapon focus after char-gen, it would probably cost somewhat more due to the higher Target Numbers. It would not be unfeasible or even unusual, though, since the books talk about enchanting things like digital watches and credsticks.


It is more of a GM's call whether dikoting a weapon focus after enchantment would ruin the enchantment. On the one hand, altering the weapon focus too much from its original form should ruin the enchantment. On the other hand, weapon foci are (I assume) susceptible to the same nicks and dings as any other weapon, and need occasional repair, sharpening, etc. So would that ruin the enchantment?

Personally, I would allow it, since it is a coating treatment that wears off eventually and needs replacing (in other words, a foci enchanted with dikote would still need a post-enchantment touch-up eventually). It's not like replacing the blade or sticking it on the end of a pole. It's really up to the individual GM, though.
mfb
the whole suppression thing makes no sense to me. i mean, if that's true, what happens if you accidentally dunk your sword in a vat of that quick-hardening chocolate goop that goes on ice cream cones? does it suddenly lose all its magic powers until you lick off the delicious candy coating? more importantly, where in the world does it talk about anything like this happening in the rules?
Raife
The "coating" issue of chocolate vs diamond is different.

Chocolate would break off as the weapon HIT THE PERSON, thus letting the weapon underneath hit them too.

Put a weapon in its scabbard and your hitting them with a stick, not the weapon. Your hitting them with dikote, not the weapon. Chocolate is a a problematic example, cus it breaks.
Person 404
Problematic, but delicious.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Cray74)
Not to nitpick spelling, but is that meant to be "ultra-thin" or "ultra-thick"?

Neither; it's explaining the damage level bonus. The secret is ultra-think! wink.gif

~J
tjn
QUOTE (Raife)
The "coating" issue of chocolate vs diamond is different.

Chocolate would break off as the weapon HIT THE PERSON, thus letting the weapon underneath hit them too.

Put a weapon in its scabbard and your hitting them with a stick, not the weapon. Your hitting them with dikote, not the weapon. Chocolate is a a problematic example, cus it breaks.

How does dikote, when applied after the enchanting process (assuming it's capable of surviving) do anything to shroud the astral form of the weapon focus (the magic part of the weapon)?

It's a completely physical process and does nothing on the magical side of the equation. Enless perhaps someone warded the dikote. But that would be silly.

Taking the weapon "HIT THE PERSON" logic to the extreme... FFBA would make a character completely immune to clubs since the club will never hit the person either, rather it's hitting the FFBA and not the character.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (tjn)
Taking the weapon "HIT THE PERSON" logic to the extreme... FFBA would make a character completely immune to clubs since the club will never hit the person either, rather it's hitting the FFBA and not the character.

But, see, FFBA is part of a person. That's why spell targeting works fine regardless of clothing. But Dikoting is never part of anything. Yeah, that's right.
Raife
Don't think of dikote like a coating... think of it like a sheath. A sheath is a leather or wooden covering for a sword. If you character put a magic orange in a sock, it's not a magic sock, its a magic orange in a sock.

It would still hurt if you hit someone with it, but it wouldnt do magic orange damage to a critter, it would do sock damage.

In the dikote example the weapon doesnt do magic damage, it does dikote and "weapon shape" damage... cus the magic orange (weapon) is in teh sock (dikote).

If you have a magic sword in a van, and the van hits something, it doesnt do magic damage.

I figure the weapon is still magical, it jsut wont have its magic properties on this plane because it is in something mundane...

I know your not going to get it, it's not something I can explain well over text.
Necro Tech
Actually the official response I received is yes, as long as the item could be dikoted in the first place. Also, benefits only apply in the physical realm since the Dikote is considered unnatural and not part of the enchantment.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Raife)
Don't think of dikote like a coating...

The problem there is that Dikote is a coating. No point thinking of it as a sheath when it is, in fact, a coating.
QUOTE (Raife)
I know your not going to get it, it's not something I can explain well over text.

The question is: Where do you draw the line? If the magic sword is dirty and covered in grit, does it do Grit Damage and Sword Shape Damage but no Magic Sword Damage? What if it's covered in rust?
toturi
*gasp* What if is covered in blood? Does it mean that the blood spirit is Immuned to Weapon Foci now?
Bearclaw
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jul 21 2004, 06:08 AM)
The question is: Where do you draw the line? If the magic sword is dirty and covered in grit, does it do Grit Damage and Sword Shape Damage but no Magic Sword Damage? What if it's covered in rust?

As I'm the one who origonally posted this idea, I'll answer.
I draw the line exactly at anything that requires heating to 4000f to accomplish. Or electroplating, or whatever.
Again, my first thought was to have DiKote destroy the magic, as it's a major modification to the make up of the sword. But, I decided that was kind of harsh. So, I came up with this, and I like it. It is in no way canon. I strongly recomend not using this rule, as you don't seem to like it. In fact, now that I think about it, if you do use it, I'd like a quarter, as it was my idea nyahnyah.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Bearclaw)
I draw the line exactly at anything that requires heating to 4000f to accomplish. Or electroplating, or whatever.

That's fine, I admire people who admit doing something "just because".
Raife
All the examples you guys give, dried blood, dirt, grit.... those things come OFF the sword when it hits something... Dikote does not.

That's where I draw the line. When you hit something with a sword, if there is something coating it that does not come off... the sword doesn't hit the person, the coating does.

Chocolate, Blood and dirt all come off when a sword breaks through someones skin, or even when the weapon is thuped hard enough to shake it off.

If a sword was in it's sheath, and you hit something with it, would the magic properties come through? If so, why?
Kagetenshi
Yes, because the weapon focus adds extra dice and is only active when you're wielding it. That sounds like the weapon increases your ability with it rather than acting upon the impact with the opponent. It's not a +2(+1DL) Sword of Wounding.

Some may think that this breaks down because you can't get the bonus when, for instance, firing an arrow. I disagree; it can be argued that the magic can guide the bow to the target, but doesn't "know" about the arrow to guide it. Much like how a computer doesn't know what the printer does with its paper.

~J
Raife
That makes a lot of sense for giving the weapons dice.

I did a little research, and any creatures that requires a magical weapon to hurt it is also dual natured, they come hand in hand (the later is a pre-requisite for the former).

I would postulate then that the astral existance of the sword is what hurts the creature, and since Dikote does not exist on the astral plane, damage is dealt like a normal magic weapon.

Ok, now I have made sense of it.
Person 404
Not that I have a problem with this ruling from a balance perspective, but since when does metal exist on the astral plane? Why should this be the only case where the astral damage level of the weapon is independent of it's physical damage code?
Jonah
My character has been building a weapon foci for a few games now, collecting the materials and distilling radicals during and between adventures. After completing the blade secion I sent it off to get dikoted, and continued working on the hilt etc. The enchanting test is made when all the parts are bought together...so no problems.
Dikote applies in physical but had no effect on astral combat, which seemed pretty balanced to me.

What ever works for your team. spin.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Person 404)
Why should this be the only case where the astral damage level of the weapon is independent of it's physical damage code?

Because as a post-enchanting modification, the dikote isn't itself magical and as such has no aura.

~J
Necrotic Monkey
Who says its a post-enchanting modification? It can easily be done prior to the enchanting process. You just lose the Virgin Telesma modifier.
BitBasher
And the enchanting test Tn goes through the roof comparitively.
Necrotic Monkey
Which can easily be offset by multiple radicals and a little extra orichalcum, which is a breeze to make yourself.
BitBasher
I have never ever had a game with the gross amounts of downtime necessary to make that happen.... in my game people don't have spare months unless they suck and are in low demand. biggrin.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey @ Jul 21 2004, 10:17 PM)
Who says its a post-enchanting modification?  It can easily be done prior to the enchanting process.  You just lose the Virgin Telesma modifier.

If it isn't post-enchanting, then you get the Power increase (and DL if it's edged) on the astral too. Simple enough.

BitBasher: That must be some level of perfection. None of your runners ever end up with more than an M wound and always roll well on their tests to heal without care?

~J
Necrotic Monkey
A Grade 2 initiate can produce an obscene amount of orichalcum without batting an eye in just 28 days. You can also pay another enchanter to create some for you for far, far, far less than the 88,000 nuyen street cost using the enchanting costs in MiTS... and you can run as many runs as you like in the interim.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Raife)
All the examples you guys give, dried blood, dirt, grit.... those things come OFF the sword when it hits something...

Some of it might -- blood would come off in flecks, for example. Most of it doesn't. Something as simple as grease would not leave the sword surface except maybe in parts where jagged bone edges scrape against it -- a light grease coating on a sword would tend to retain most of its mass when you hit a person with it. Rust is guaranteed not to come off the sword unless you destroy a few thousand suits of plate-mail with it.

If you only draw the line based on what comes off when you hit a person with the sword, you are forced to negate the bonuses from using a weapon focus whenever the sword is oiled, or particularly dirty.

Although if you already decided against such simple rulings, this is moot.
BitBasher
QUOTE
BitBasher: That must be some level of perfection. None of your runners ever end up with more than an M wound and always roll well on their tests to heal without care?
Oh hell no. My runners pay for advanced medical services. It's usually far better fianacially to do that than to sit in a bed making no money. I have also had them take runs wounded fairly regularly. usually, the mage is the one that's injured anyway, and he usually has the worst recovery times due to being magically active.

usually time is a bigger commodity than cash if the game has gone on a little while.
Zazen
QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)
Who says its a post-enchanting modification? It can easily be done prior to the enchanting process. You just lose the Virgin Telesma modifier.

Or if you're really 1337 you can hand-dikote it with gas straight from a cows ass and a special natural-rock furnace powered by a volcano, keeping the bonus wink.gif
BitBasher
QUOTE (Zazen)
QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey @ Jul 21 2004, 10:17 PM)
Who says its a post-enchanting modification?  It can easily be done prior to the enchanting process.  You just lose the Virgin Telesma modifier.

Or if you're really 1337 you can hand-dikote it with gas straight from a cows ass and a special natural-rock furnace powered by a volcano, keeping the bonus wink.gif

Oh, you mean the harlequin Method. Cake. rotfl.gif
Bob the Ninja
1337?
Zazen
It's short for 31337.
Fygg Nuuton
QUOTE (Zazen)
It's short for 31337.

grinbig.gif
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