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Konphujun
Full Version: Security Guards
Hey everyone, Im new here and im relatively new to shadowrun too. Im pretty Familiar with the rules but im no rules lawyer. Anyhow, I have a game coming up in which there are a LOT of security guards and I had a few questions. First, how do you use security guards? Do you run them as adequately smart guards with good armor and weapons, or do you run them like movie security guards which are dumber than a box of bricks? Also, do you give them all one kind of weapon/armor and if so which do you think works best as the basic middle of the road corp. sec. weapons? One last question, do you use the professionalism ratings as stated in the SR3 book or do all of your guards fight to the death? Thanks!
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Konphujun
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Konphujun
Varies. I don't use professionalism ratings per se, but I brain it (replace brain with eyeball for the idiom I'm adapting); most secguards won't fight to the death unless they don't know it'll be to the death. Depending on the individual guard and the amount of money being thrown at the problem of security, guards could be smarter than the runners, civvies with guns, or people who got hired to stand around and look tough because that's all they can do.
I do, however, typically give the guards either all the same armor and weaponry or all one of two gear loadouts. For mid-level this will usually either be a heavy pistol or an SMG, along with an armored jacket.
~J
I do, however, typically give the guards either all the same armor and weaponry or all one of two gear loadouts. For mid-level this will usually either be a heavy pistol or an SMG, along with an armored jacket.
~J
I try to use the professionalism as a general guide, but combat in shadowrun has a tendancy to happen really quickly, so they sometimes don't get a chance to run unless there are lots of them, or the runners miss the first time.
The competence of the guards should depend on the setting. If the runners are breaking into a run-down mall, the security isn't going to be well trained. On the other hand, if they're taking on a major corp, the guards should be smart, well trained, well armed, and know their 'home turf' well enough to use it to their advantage.
...and Blackjack is my inspiration for all things GM-like:
The competence of the guards should depend on the setting. If the runners are breaking into a run-down mall, the security isn't going to be well trained. On the other hand, if they're taking on a major corp, the guards should be smart, well trained, well armed, and know their 'home turf' well enough to use it to their advantage.
...and Blackjack is my inspiration for all things GM-like:
[ Spoiler ]
Ahh, Thanks apathy. Thats just what I needed to know as my players are going to take on Ares. Also, thank you Kage, I figure I'll outfit my guys with an ares predator and a smg of some sort. Thanks again!
Konphujun
Konphujun
I'll reiterrate some of the above in my own way (and add some new). There are important questions to ask:
What are they guarding? High security, low security, something else entirely? The value of what the guards guard is going to drive how much money gets spent on them. This, in turn, drives gear, etc.
How well are they motivated? Corporate employees tend to be relatively loyal to their corp and will probably fight harder. Some rentacop working part time while he goes to vocational school is less likely to do so. It also often drives how good they are at their job.
What is the nature of their duty? Guards generally do several things at one time, but they still have a scope of duty. This generally determines their armament and skill set. Remember, guards in facilities are likely to switch between one or more duties fairly often (take watching cameras, for instance. Human beings can only watch a monitor bank for about 15-30 minutes at a time before their chance of detecting anything plumets to virtually zero).
For gear, go with reliable, cheap, effective equipment. Guards almost always have a radio, some descent armor (armor jacket or vest w/plates), and a sidearm (a heavy pistol, generally). Higher grade guards are going to have cheap cyber (boosted reflexes, plastic bone lacing, etc.) and a bigger gun (in addition to the sidearm) like a shotgun or a rifle. SMGs are more specialized and you're probably not really going to see them till you start getting into really high security environments.
A shotgun (mainly the T-250), on the other hand is amazingly effective for the cost (only the Sadler TMP is its equal in the SMG market in terms of cost, and then the TMP is BF only, which makes it not quite so good for relatively normal human guards).
What are they guarding? High security, low security, something else entirely? The value of what the guards guard is going to drive how much money gets spent on them. This, in turn, drives gear, etc.
How well are they motivated? Corporate employees tend to be relatively loyal to their corp and will probably fight harder. Some rentacop working part time while he goes to vocational school is less likely to do so. It also often drives how good they are at their job.
What is the nature of their duty? Guards generally do several things at one time, but they still have a scope of duty. This generally determines their armament and skill set. Remember, guards in facilities are likely to switch between one or more duties fairly often (take watching cameras, for instance. Human beings can only watch a monitor bank for about 15-30 minutes at a time before their chance of detecting anything plumets to virtually zero).
For gear, go with reliable, cheap, effective equipment. Guards almost always have a radio, some descent armor (armor jacket or vest w/plates), and a sidearm (a heavy pistol, generally). Higher grade guards are going to have cheap cyber (boosted reflexes, plastic bone lacing, etc.) and a bigger gun (in addition to the sidearm) like a shotgun or a rifle. SMGs are more specialized and you're probably not really going to see them till you start getting into really high security environments.
A shotgun (mainly the T-250), on the other hand is amazingly effective for the cost (only the Sadler TMP is its equal in the SMG market in terms of cost, and then the TMP is BF only, which makes it not quite so good for relatively normal human guards).
Make sure they utilize their surroundings effectively, as Apathy said (quoted?). Using delaying tactics until the big boys in the badass helicopter can make an entry works pretty well I've found out. If the guards patrol in groups, it makes the "silent takedown" infinitely more difficult, and if you really want to get nasty, a biomonitor connected to a communication system makes for an instant red alert anytime a goon goes down. Finally, explosives are great, the cosmetic damage a fragmentation grenade inflicts is utterly minor compared to the loss of research, prototypes, scientists, or whatever. Seeing as Ares is a bit of a weapon producer, it wouldn't be wholly far-fetched to have the guards equipped in a military fashion, with assault rifles and light machine guns, grenades, and effective armor. Assuming of course this is a private facility and not a shopping mall.
Good luck, and don't let your boys die, they've got families to worry about!
Good luck, and don't let your boys die, they've got families to worry about!
All the advice is great that's been posted above, but I want to add something that most people forget.
These guards are human beings. Odds are they have a wife and kids they want to go home to, they are each other's friends, or possibly rivals. If you trat them like cardboard cutouts or a sheet of stats then the game world loses layers of depth. They are people. Let the players know that. Pictures of family in thair wallets and in their cubicles, wedding rings sparkling on their lifeless hands, ect. Make it emotional.
These guards are human beings. Odds are they have a wife and kids they want to go home to, they are each other's friends, or possibly rivals. If you trat them like cardboard cutouts or a sheet of stats then the game world loses layers of depth. They are people. Let the players know that. Pictures of family in thair wallets and in their cubicles, wedding rings sparkling on their lifeless hands, ect. Make it emotional.
Even better if you've got one character who will stop to loot the ring while the others just stare in horror.
~J
~J
Wow, this is some great material here! I am SO making this sight my homepage now.. but anyhow... there are two sets of guards in this run. The run is an extraction of a willing target whom just so happens to be developing a brand new type of non-lethal weaponry/ammo and wants out of this game. The corp. would rather see him dead than anywhere else so they have a group of four guards with him at all times. This group is to defend the scientist at all costs or... if he tries to escape, terminate him. The other group of guards is the run of the mill patrol guards which will be patroling the halls, monitoring cameras, keeping magical and matrix overwatch and such. I figure each group will have one man with the panic button that alerts the big dogs of the corp. in case of emergency. So im thinking about just giving the normal guards a predator and the heavy hitters an HK227 and two defensive grenades a piece. Let me know how this sounds please! Good work so far!
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Konphujun
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Konphujun
Security guards are well-equipped and under-paid, of questionable morality and flexible loyalty. High quality and interesting weapons and armor are at a premium; after all, even if the guard dies, you can reuse his gun. Cyberware is less common; in important places, maybe some smartlinks and low-grade reflexes or dermal implants. Anybody who gets corp cyberware is pretty much indentured to their employer. Guards aren't especially well-trained or brave, but they know their facility and they're likely to have a rigger and/or decker who can spy on the situation and give them intelligence on intruders.
Not indentured for life, but probably under a five-year contract at minimum for something like a Smartlink unless the employee voluntarily pays it back faster.
~J
~J
I'd also note that a guard in anything other than a zero zone is also going to have some sort of stun-dealing weapon: stun baton, narcojet, billy club, or dikoted carp. Most of them would typically spend more time dealing with bob the drunk in accounting, or beligerant teenage skateborders on in the parking lot then actual shadowrunners, so they're used to going non-lethal as a first response. They'll only pull their Ares Alpha if they think the opposition presents a real danger.
If I'm in a public building like a hospital, usually the security guard only has a stun baton, but the public areas are covered with security cameras and some sort of response like knock out gas to minimize the bad pr associated with killing bystanders.
If I'm in a public building like a hospital, usually the security guard only has a stun baton, but the public areas are covered with security cameras and some sort of response like knock out gas to minimize the bad pr associated with killing bystanders.
Indeed. In a moderately-high security building (but not a zero-zone by any account, and the security had just been upgraded temporarily due to… special circumstances), I had the guards toting bullpup assault rifles, but they were dual-clipped with one clip being gel rounds.
Any non-extraterritorial place will have nonlethal methods in vast preference to lethal.
~J
Any non-extraterritorial place will have nonlethal methods in vast preference to lethal.
~J
Remamber that Ares has it's own private army in KE(Knight Errant) Security.
and since this sounds like a relatively high level R&D facility the four pros you describe could conceivably be armed with anything your heart desires.
Also you might not be aware of it but there is a note in Dunkelzahan's Willthat relates to what you are decribing
and since this sounds like a relatively high level R&D facility the four pros you describe could conceivably be armed with anything your heart desires.
Also you might not be aware of it but there is a note in Dunkelzahan's Willthat relates to what you are decribing
I'm of the opinion that while non-lethal methods will certainly be common, and the norm in areas of high-volume public traffic, anywhere that's in the slightest bit sensitive and extra-territorial, the guards are going to shoot first and ask questions later, unless it's impractical or they're ordered to do otherwise. They're territorial and bored, and it's not uncommon for some to be a bit sadistic and filled with an overdeveloped sense of authoritarian importance. Of course, others are just careless or lazy.
If I ran that, and I may because it's not a bad idea...
The four personal guards would tbe the equivalent of mad ass kickers. They're the best because they're directly protecting an investment. All four of them should have panicbutton or equivalent linked biomonitors. They would also have primo gear, probably not all of them the same because if they're that good they get to pick their own gear. Think Secret Service meets special forces.
That's just the way I would do it. If you're going to guard someone like that you don't do it half ass.
EDIT:
And clown it's always better to use non lethal when possible. It's hard to question a corpse, but easy to make a detainee into one later!
The four personal guards would tbe the equivalent of mad ass kickers. They're the best because they're directly protecting an investment. All four of them should have panicbutton or equivalent linked biomonitors. They would also have primo gear, probably not all of them the same because if they're that good they get to pick their own gear. Think Secret Service meets special forces.
That's just the way I would do it. If you're going to guard someone like that you don't do it half ass.
EDIT:
And clown it's always better to use non lethal when possible. It's hard to question a corpse, but easy to make a detainee into one later!
At which point, you'd be completely justified in pulling an archetype or two as "bodyguards" and not off-the-rack meat sec guards.
Important asset work will require a minimum level of cybernetics if they are expecting him to be extracted - smartlinks at a minimum.
Internal radios, biomonitors and autoinjectors are some easy suggestions.
If you want to be really sneaky and your crew isn't the thoughtful sort, have two escorts within arms' reach and the other two in front and back positions, a good four or five meters away.
The players get overconfident, swoop in on the target and the two babysitters and get taken from the flanks when the second two jump in.
Weapons will probably depend on what you're comfortable with -> suggestions include:
HP:
Smartlinked: Ares Predator or Savalette Guardian
Non-linked: Colt Manhunter or Browning Ultrapower
SMG:
Smartlinked: Ingram smartgun
Non-linked: HK MP-5
Depending on their stats, Form-fitting body armor + Secure jackets.
-Siege
Important asset work will require a minimum level of cybernetics if they are expecting him to be extracted - smartlinks at a minimum.
Internal radios, biomonitors and autoinjectors are some easy suggestions.
If you want to be really sneaky and your crew isn't the thoughtful sort, have two escorts within arms' reach and the other two in front and back positions, a good four or five meters away.
The players get overconfident, swoop in on the target and the two babysitters and get taken from the flanks when the second two jump in.
Weapons will probably depend on what you're comfortable with -> suggestions include:
HP:
Smartlinked: Ares Predator or Savalette Guardian
Non-linked: Colt Manhunter or Browning Ultrapower
SMG:
Smartlinked: Ingram smartgun
Non-linked: HK MP-5
Depending on their stats, Form-fitting body armor + Secure jackets.
-Siege
Extra territorial guards still have to answer to someone. The Ares guard must explain to the Ares cop why he gunned this guy down, he dosen't have to explain to the UCAS cop. But there will still be an inquiry when someone gets gunned down.
Explaing that you had to gun down Bob from accounting down when he got drunk and started smashing furniture b/c you didn't have a tazer/club only a SMG, is not going to fly. Guards will still have non-lethal options available to them. Notice that even most embassy guards have their guns in a safe or other 'secure storage' (at least for 'civilized places). Shadowrunners don't break into the place every week.
Explaing that you had to gun down Bob from accounting down when he got drunk and started smashing furniture b/c you didn't have a tazer/club only a SMG, is not going to fly. Guards will still have non-lethal options available to them. Notice that even most embassy guards have their guns in a safe or other 'secure storage' (at least for 'civilized places). Shadowrunners don't break into the place every week.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| And clown it's always better to use non lethal when possible. It's hard to question a corpse, but easy to make a detainee into one later! |
Like I said, if there's a reason to capture someone, they will. But really, there's not much to be learned from runners most of the time. They're deniable assets for a reason. So no one is going to worry much if the guard shoots one instead of capturing them. A lot of facilities probably don't even have detention centers.... why bother?
Wow, much more than I expected on this one and im getting some very sneaky ideas. I like seige's ideas about the cybered/professional guards and I think ill use them... Thanks a bunch everyone!
Peace
Konphujun
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Konphujun
The bodyguards might have nonlethal options, but remember - they're expecting trouble and they have orders to kill the scientist if capture is a possibility.
Of course, a cortex bomb and radio collar will function equally well...
However, the security assets assigned to protecting this scientist are most likely not going to be the same guys who reign in Bob from Accounting, unless you can picture the average sec goon going from beat patrol to cold-blooded murder in the blink of an eye.
Which, granted, is a possibility - add dedicated p-fix chips and it's a certainty. But the bodyguards would probably be (or need to be) specially trained operatives, a cut above the average corporate beat cop.
And if your runners think of scanning the crowd for the second guards, remember - all armor has a concealability rating and there's no reason the bodyguards wouldn't use the same sneaky weapon-hiding tricks the runners would. Throw in a little Acting and at first glance, the guys look like terrified corps...until the runners look away and all sorts of hell gets unloaded.
-Siege
Of course, a cortex bomb and radio collar will function equally well...
However, the security assets assigned to protecting this scientist are most likely not going to be the same guys who reign in Bob from Accounting, unless you can picture the average sec goon going from beat patrol to cold-blooded murder in the blink of an eye.
Which, granted, is a possibility - add dedicated p-fix chips and it's a certainty. But the bodyguards would probably be (or need to be) specially trained operatives, a cut above the average corporate beat cop.
And if your runners think of scanning the crowd for the second guards, remember - all armor has a concealability rating and there's no reason the bodyguards wouldn't use the same sneaky weapon-hiding tricks the runners would. Throw in a little Acting and at first glance, the guys look like terrified corps...until the runners look away and all sorts of hell gets unloaded.
-Siege
OOOHHH! Devious! I like very much. Well im set on ideas! Thanks alot!
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Konphujun
Peace
Konphujun
| QUOTE (sidartha) |
| Remamber that Ares has it's own private army in KE(Knight Errant) Security. and since this sounds like a relatively high level R&D facility the four pros you describe could conceivably be armed with anything your heart desires. Also you might not be aware of it but there is a note in Dunkelzahan's Willthat relates to what you are decribing |
Just one? You're forgetting Hard Corps, Ares Arms, and all kinds of multiple private armies Ares does have.
Professionalism is a guide to behavior for me. But, having played other games, Sec guards aren't likely to fight to the death. They are really likely to call backup.
Don
I play my sec guards according to the Professionalism rules but I also add in a winkle of my own, I use their individual Intelligence to see what they will actually do. A dumb ass sec guard with low Intelligence and lousy Professionalism will take a hit and run away and keep running. A smart but unprofessional guard will run away at the first hint of danger and camp at some out of way spot.
A professional but dumb guard will die against overwhelming odds. A smart professional will pull all sorts of sneaky tactics.
A professional but dumb guard will die against overwhelming odds. A smart professional will pull all sorts of sneaky tactics.
SOP for security guards in combat, in order:
1) Get cover (if you're dead, you're doing no one any good).
2) Call for backup (hopefully simultaneous with 1).
3) Try to keep the intruders in one spot or at least find out which direction they're going in. This gets radioed in.
4) Try not to get shot.
Actually killing or stopping intruders isn't even in the top 4. Once a threat's been contained and sufficient backup is in place, someone higher up will give the orders to take care of it.
1) Get cover (if you're dead, you're doing no one any good).
2) Call for backup (hopefully simultaneous with 1).
3) Try to keep the intruders in one spot or at least find out which direction they're going in. This gets radioed in.
4) Try not to get shot.
Actually killing or stopping intruders isn't even in the top 4. Once a threat's been contained and sufficient backup is in place, someone higher up will give the orders to take care of it.
allso, remeber that in SR there are effective nonlethal ammo for all guns. most likely they will be walking around with stun rounds in the gun and if lead starts flying get to cover and reload.
then there is the question of time of day. most likley they will be rolling out lethal methods at night faster as then the area is clear for civilians.
then there is the question of time of day. most likley they will be rolling out lethal methods at night faster as then the area is clear for civilians.
At the risk of pulling a Doc Funk - there are no rules for "friendly fire" or missed shots.
Which means a target could stand in front of a crowd of nuns and if I unloaded a weapon at the target and missed him completely, all those stray rounds will not hit _anything_.
As for sec guard SoP, it will probably vary depending on corp and the nature of the assignment -- walking a beat in the Arcology mall would probably not warrant the same response as guarding a corp research facility.
And depending on training, a sec guard may or may not remember his training and behave accordingly.
Which, if you're bored, make a stress response test.
Security Training (Knowledge Skill)
TN = type of stress
Random result upon failure:
1. Sits and cries for mommy
2. Scurries to cover and returns fire
3. Scurries to cover and radios for help
4. Tries to surrender
5. Re-enacts Rambo 23 and charges hostiles, guns blazing.
6. Retreat!
Which raises an interesting question - would a guard try to surrender to a runner, given the corp-perpetuated mythology about the average runner?
-Siege
Which means a target could stand in front of a crowd of nuns and if I unloaded a weapon at the target and missed him completely, all those stray rounds will not hit _anything_.
As for sec guard SoP, it will probably vary depending on corp and the nature of the assignment -- walking a beat in the Arcology mall would probably not warrant the same response as guarding a corp research facility.
And depending on training, a sec guard may or may not remember his training and behave accordingly.
Which, if you're bored, make a stress response test.
Security Training (Knowledge Skill)
TN = type of stress
Random result upon failure:
1. Sits and cries for mommy
2. Scurries to cover and returns fire
3. Scurries to cover and radios for help
4. Tries to surrender
5. Re-enacts Rambo 23 and charges hostiles, guns blazing.
6. Retreat!
Which raises an interesting question - would a guard try to surrender to a runner, given the corp-perpetuated mythology about the average runner?
-Siege
What is this mysterious info on the "Average Runner"? Ive never heard of it but i'de like to just to get the feel for how a sec boy preceives a runner.
Peace
Konphujun
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Konphujun
Snicker - "criminals who perform heinous crimes for nuyen."
It's in a book - someone more awake than I will have to reference it.
It's the "Omega Security" memo posted on Shadowland.
-Trevor
It's in a book - someone more awake than I will have to reference it.
It's the "Omega Security" memo posted on Shadowland.
-Trevor
Considering the resources that the target corp has at its disposal is a must. In the case of Ares, I would expect at least light security armor for the kind of detail you're describing, as well as minor to mid-level cyberware enhancements. Low level boosted reflexes, smartlinks, and dermal plating are common.
One thing that a lot of people don't consider is that corps that don't want to shuck out tons of money for cyberware enhancements for their sec guards tend to use cheaper means of accomplishing the same thing, such as doses of kamikaze (described in Man and Machine). The guards have a chance of developing an addiction and/or tolerance to the drug, but if they're only using it in life and death situations, then the risk is minimal, and the effects are similar to spending a couple hundred thou on wired reflexes.
One non-lethal weapon that I thoroughly enjoy is the splat gun (also in M&M).
One thing that a lot of people don't consider is that corps that don't want to shuck out tons of money for cyberware enhancements for their sec guards tend to use cheaper means of accomplishing the same thing, such as doses of kamikaze (described in Man and Machine). The guards have a chance of developing an addiction and/or tolerance to the drug, but if they're only using it in life and death situations, then the risk is minimal, and the effects are similar to spending a couple hundred thou on wired reflexes.
One non-lethal weapon that I thoroughly enjoy is the splat gun (also in M&M).
Hence my suggestion regarding dedicated chipjacks, autoinjectors and implanted radiolinks.
A guard would have to radio in to the controller's office and request remote activation of the kamikaze drug. Which kinda sucks, but it does keep the guard from jumping the gun.
Similar control chips could be implanted in most cybernetics for comparable results - although there are some times when a busy signal can just ruin your life.
-Siege
A guard would have to radio in to the controller's office and request remote activation of the kamikaze drug. Which kinda sucks, but it does keep the guard from jumping the gun.
Similar control chips could be implanted in most cybernetics for comparable results - although there are some times when a busy signal can just ruin your life.
-Siege
First, how do you use security guards?
I use them to secure areas that need immediate protection or where just a camera won't do. Not all tote AK-97's or Uzi III's, but this situational at best.
Just last night I had daytime guards that only had side-arms (look less menacing to the office folks), while the night-time lot had Armor-Jackets, assault weapons, with barghest patrols.
Do you run them as adequately smart guards with good armor and weapons, or do you run them like movie security guards which are dumber than a box of bricks?
Depends on how hard i want to make the competition for my runners. If my goal is to challenge them, then yeah, smart guards with good armor/weapons. Sometimes, I make the guards easier since they rely more on other means of defense (magical, sentry guns, gas-traps, etc).
Also, do you give them all one kind of weapon/armor and if so which do you think works best as the basic middle of the road corp. sec. weapons?
If I am planning on having many guards, then I tend to make them similar to avoid having tons of stats that vary only sleightly. Only the "notable" ones get some special attention on cyberware, stats, etc.
My Typical guards:
Light guard : Armor Vest + Side-arm + stun-baton + comlink/radio + (Boosted 1)
Medium guard : Armor Jacker + Side-arm + SMG/Assault rifle + stun-baton + comlink/radio + (Wired 1 or 2)
Heavy guard : Light Security Armor + Assault rifle/Heavy Weapon + comlink/radio + (Wired 1 or 2, Dermal Armor)
I make "Commanders" a bit smarter than the general guard, but i consider how well trained I want my security team.
One last question, do you use the professionalism ratings as stated in the SR3 book or do all of your guards fight to the death?
I think of bad-ass guards like in Matrix:1 (Lobby Scene), those guys thought they could easily take 2 people....wrong!
I plan in advance if my guards are willing to fight to the end or will just defend so much until they give up and surrender. I keep in mind, they probably have some protocol as to what-to-do, what-not-do and what-they-will-do.
Thanks!
You're welcome!
I use them to secure areas that need immediate protection or where just a camera won't do. Not all tote AK-97's or Uzi III's, but this situational at best.
Just last night I had daytime guards that only had side-arms (look less menacing to the office folks), while the night-time lot had Armor-Jackets, assault weapons, with barghest patrols.
Do you run them as adequately smart guards with good armor and weapons, or do you run them like movie security guards which are dumber than a box of bricks?
Depends on how hard i want to make the competition for my runners. If my goal is to challenge them, then yeah, smart guards with good armor/weapons. Sometimes, I make the guards easier since they rely more on other means of defense (magical, sentry guns, gas-traps, etc).
Also, do you give them all one kind of weapon/armor and if so which do you think works best as the basic middle of the road corp. sec. weapons?
If I am planning on having many guards, then I tend to make them similar to avoid having tons of stats that vary only sleightly. Only the "notable" ones get some special attention on cyberware, stats, etc.
My Typical guards:
Light guard : Armor Vest + Side-arm + stun-baton + comlink/radio + (Boosted 1)
Medium guard : Armor Jacker + Side-arm + SMG/Assault rifle + stun-baton + comlink/radio + (Wired 1 or 2)
Heavy guard : Light Security Armor + Assault rifle/Heavy Weapon + comlink/radio + (Wired 1 or 2, Dermal Armor)
I make "Commanders" a bit smarter than the general guard, but i consider how well trained I want my security team.
One last question, do you use the professionalism ratings as stated in the SR3 book or do all of your guards fight to the death?
I think of bad-ass guards like in Matrix:1 (Lobby Scene), those guys thought they could easily take 2 people....wrong!
I plan in advance if my guards are willing to fight to the end or will just defend so much until they give up and surrender. I keep in mind, they probably have some protocol as to what-to-do, what-not-do and what-they-will-do.
Thanks!
You're welcome!
| QUOTE |
| At the risk of pulling a Doc Funk - there are no rules for "friendly fire" or missed shots. Which means a target could stand in front of a crowd of nuns and if I unloaded a weapon at the target and missed him completely, all those stray rounds will not hit _anything_. |
Bad logic there, there being no rules for missed shots and collateral damage doesn't mean that those shots can't go anywhere. It just means there are no rules for it. That makes it up to the GM. There's also no rules that say "missed shots never hit innocent bystanders."
| QUOTE (Konphujun) |
| First, how do you use security guards? |
I design them to be appropriate to what's defended. I don't particularly care how tough the PCs are. If the PCs storm a backwater office building, they're going to face a bunch of geezerly rentacops. If the PCs storm an AAA-megacorp corporate HQ, they'll be facing cyber ninja physad commandos dropping out of the wood work.
The exception to that rule is, of course, if the target is aware in advance that the PCs plan to attack.
| QUOTE |
| Do you run them as adequately smart guards with good armor and weapons, or do you run them like movie security guards which are dumber than a box of bricks? |
Whatever's appropriate to the target of the run. Generally, the well-armed guards in high-value targets will be using cover, firing ports, and other reasonable equalizers to deal with runners. The kinds of things that don't take much thought to use (not in combats measured in seconds), but only require a moderate amount of training - and corporate money - to make use of. It's amazing how a few guards with full-auto weapons (like SMGs) can take down runners who aren't clanking around in hardened armor.
My roleplaying of low-end security guards has recently been altered a bit since one of my gamers (the one with the Masters Degree in computer science) spent a year being a low-end security guard. He had a fascinating series of tales about his experience, a Day In the Life Of A Rentacop.
| QUOTE |
| Also, do you give them all one kind of weapon/armor and if so which do you think works best as the basic middle of the road corp. sec. weapons? |
Again, it depends. Of course, I haven't put runners through zero-zero death zone dungeon crawl corporate facilities lately.
My preferences are heavy pistols, armor jackets, and tasers for virtually any guard the runners first encounter. Response teams may have the same armor or security armor, and will have SMGs or assault rifles. Cyberware tends to be limited to smart links and other light mods. In high-security areas, security armor and automatic weapons are standard, with more reflex boosting cyber.
Rather than an amazing series of traps, elaborate locks, etc. to foil runners' many bags of tricks, my security systems focus on barriers (trap the runners in a wing of the building and call the cops and/or megacorp assault troops) and finding the intruders. A simple array of visible/thermographic cameras and pressure-sensitive carpets will spot pretty much any intruder and shouldn't be too expensive.
| QUOTE |
| One last question, do you use the professionalism ratings as stated in the SR3 book or do all of your guards fight to the death? Thanks! |
Generally the runners don't give the guards the option. Once a lethal round is fired by the guards, the hamburger piles up.
However, I do use the professionalism ratings. I just had two runners face a dozen rednecks in the backwoods of South Carolina. The runners won because they a) had good, solid cover and b) the rednecks stopped shooting (to better scream and thrash on the ground) when they took moderate wounds. The rednecks were all killed eventually, but that was easier for the runners because the rednecks were exactly fight-to-the-death professionals.
Security Guards
First, how do you use security guards?
1.) Do you run them as adequately smart guards with good armor and weapons, or do you run them like movie security guards who are dumber than a box of bricks?
Security Guard quality runs the full spectrum from apathetic to professional to over kill.
2.) Also, do you give them all one kind of weapon/armor and if so which do you think works best as the basic middle of the road corp. sec. weapons?
Security Guards always receive standardized equipment from their employers. (Usually the most cost effective <read Cheapest> and easiest to replace).
Armour:
Standard Uniforms are Armoured Clothing and Armoured Jackets or Vests for Public Locations.
Form Fitting Body Armour under Secure Armoured Clothing and Jackets or Vests for Corporate Offices.
Form Fitting Body Armour under Armoured Clothing and Heavy Armour (Partial) for Security Emergency Response Teams (SERTs) or Security Armour.
Always with Modifications appropriate for the Location, Security Alert Levels, and the Prize they are protecting.
Weapons:
Shock Batons/Gloves or Spray Weapons (appropriate for Corporate, Government, etc… Locations)
Heavy Pistols, Taser Pistols, Narcojet Pistols or Machine Pistols (with a variety of Ammunitions again appropriate for Locations)
SMGs, Taser Rifles, Narcojet Rifles, Net Gun Rifles, Heavy Spray Weapons, Shotguns, etc… (Corporate Locations)
Assault Rifles, Assault Shotguns, Sniper Rifles, or Grenade Launchers (with a variety of Munitions)
Grenades (always, but varies with Location)
Do not forget Sentry Guns, Combat Drones, Facility Security Traps, Security Critters, Magicians and Spirits (Corporate, Government, etc…)
Gear:
Communications (Secure Systems)
Medical (Med Kits, Combat Drugs, etc…)
Restrains (Various including Chemical, Physical, Communication, Cyber etc…)
Panic Buttons or Screechers (the later causing light stun for the unprepared)
3.) One last question, do you use the professionalism ratings as stated in the SR3 book or do all of your guards fight to the death?
“Slavish adherence to the Rules shows that you have nothing better to do”.
Like all RPG Rules they are just guidelines to having fun. They are good guidelines however on how NPCs respond to taking Damage of any kind.
Active Skills: (34)
Primary Firearms Skill (“Pistols”): 4
Secondary Firearms Skill (“?”): 2
Clubs (Shock Batons): 3
Unarmed Combat: 4
Athletics: 2
Stealth (Alertness): 2/4
Etiquette (Corp, Sec,): 2/4
Intimidation or Negotiation: 3
Interrogation or Leadership: [3](Commanders Only)
Biotech (First Aid): 1/3
Electronics (Sec Sys): 1/3
Electronics B/R (Sec Sys): 1/3
Car: 3
Knowledge Skills: (20)
Security Procedures (by Company): 2/4
Small Unit Tactics: 2
Corporate Politics (by Company): 2/4
Corporate Structure (by Company): 2/4
Corporate Facilities (by Locaton): 2/4
Corporate Rumour Mill (by Company): 2/4
Law (by Location, Criminal): 2/4
Philosophy (Sun Tzu’s Art of Security):
Cheers
QM
First, how do you use security guards?
1.) Do you run them as adequately smart guards with good armor and weapons, or do you run them like movie security guards who are dumber than a box of bricks?
Security Guard quality runs the full spectrum from apathetic to professional to over kill.
2.) Also, do you give them all one kind of weapon/armor and if so which do you think works best as the basic middle of the road corp. sec. weapons?
Security Guards always receive standardized equipment from their employers. (Usually the most cost effective <read Cheapest> and easiest to replace).
Armour:
Standard Uniforms are Armoured Clothing and Armoured Jackets or Vests for Public Locations.
Form Fitting Body Armour under Secure Armoured Clothing and Jackets or Vests for Corporate Offices.
Form Fitting Body Armour under Armoured Clothing and Heavy Armour (Partial) for Security Emergency Response Teams (SERTs) or Security Armour.
Always with Modifications appropriate for the Location, Security Alert Levels, and the Prize they are protecting.
Weapons:
Shock Batons/Gloves or Spray Weapons (appropriate for Corporate, Government, etc… Locations)
Heavy Pistols, Taser Pistols, Narcojet Pistols or Machine Pistols (with a variety of Ammunitions again appropriate for Locations)
SMGs, Taser Rifles, Narcojet Rifles, Net Gun Rifles, Heavy Spray Weapons, Shotguns, etc… (Corporate Locations)
Assault Rifles, Assault Shotguns, Sniper Rifles, or Grenade Launchers (with a variety of Munitions)
Grenades (always, but varies with Location)
Do not forget Sentry Guns, Combat Drones, Facility Security Traps, Security Critters, Magicians and Spirits (Corporate, Government, etc…)
Gear:
Communications (Secure Systems)
Medical (Med Kits, Combat Drugs, etc…)
Restrains (Various including Chemical, Physical, Communication, Cyber etc…)
Panic Buttons or Screechers (the later causing light stun for the unprepared)
3.) One last question, do you use the professionalism ratings as stated in the SR3 book or do all of your guards fight to the death?
“Slavish adherence to the Rules shows that you have nothing better to do”.
Like all RPG Rules they are just guidelines to having fun. They are good guidelines however on how NPCs respond to taking Damage of any kind.
Active Skills: (34)
Primary Firearms Skill (“Pistols”): 4
Secondary Firearms Skill (“?”): 2
Clubs (Shock Batons): 3
Unarmed Combat: 4
Athletics: 2
Stealth (Alertness): 2/4
Etiquette (Corp, Sec,): 2/4
Intimidation or Negotiation: 3
Interrogation or Leadership: [3](Commanders Only)
Biotech (First Aid): 1/3
Electronics (Sec Sys): 1/3
Electronics B/R (Sec Sys): 1/3
Car: 3
Knowledge Skills: (20)
Security Procedures (by Company): 2/4
Small Unit Tactics: 2
Corporate Politics (by Company): 2/4
Corporate Structure (by Company): 2/4
Corporate Facilities (by Locaton): 2/4
Corporate Rumour Mill (by Company): 2/4
Law (by Location, Criminal): 2/4
Philosophy (Sun Tzu’s Art of Security):
Cheers
QM
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
Bad logic there, there being no rules for missed shots and collateral damage doesn't mean that those shots can't go anywhere. It just means there are no rules for it. That makes it up to the GM. There's also no rules that say "missed shots never hit innocent bystanders." |
Which, incidentally, is my objection to Siege's "a child will never kill another child or themself with a handgun". Shadowrun is designed to cover, for the most part, Shadowrunners and things they do. If Shadowrun had a lot of eight-year-old PCs who aren't freaky super-geniuses (Otaku), they'd probably have more significant rules for this sort of thing. Likewise, if Shadowrunners did a lot of catering, they'd probably have rules (a la Shadowbeat) for cake frosting creation and cooking foci.
~J
I've always favor the layered approach to securing a building.
1.) Light residential or comercial = 1 or two guards, armored jackets, pistols with Gel and stun clubs. Layer 2, call cops.
2.) High security residential or medium security comercial = 2-4 guards, armored jackets, pistols with lethal and gel, shotguns for backup everyone has smart goggles or laser sights. Layer 2, call private security firm, let them call cops if needed.
3.) Secure comercial or light extra-teritorial compounds = 8-10 guards including a least 1 veteran with cyberware (like boosted + smartlink). Patrol guards have jackets or armored clothes and vests plus formfit. Pistols with gel, SMG's with lethal and recoilcomp + laser sights, stun rods. Guards in security center have light sec armor, Assualt rifles with recoilcomp, 1 or 2 grenades and somebody with an auto shotgun. Layer 2 = astral magical support, HRT team in city master 5-10 minutes away.
4.) Medium ET compound on up = varies with situation. At this point you might start seeing CCSS systems, on sight magicians, armed drones and last ditch gas delivery systems.
The secret to running low powered guards is thinking about their training. If officers are present (still alive) the will stay and fight together. Lose the officers they retreat and wait for backup. Even guards with no cyber and SMG's can put up a good fight if they work together and use their superior building knowledge against the runners. I tend to have guards use all of their combat pool for soak and dodge and just use their base skills for combat. Its keeps them alive MUCH longer and for me at least it seems more realistic. The sec guards don't know they are meat and wouldn't burn all their combat pool and karma on the opening salvo just to cack a runner or two.
1.) Light residential or comercial = 1 or two guards, armored jackets, pistols with Gel and stun clubs. Layer 2, call cops.
2.) High security residential or medium security comercial = 2-4 guards, armored jackets, pistols with lethal and gel, shotguns for backup everyone has smart goggles or laser sights. Layer 2, call private security firm, let them call cops if needed.
3.) Secure comercial or light extra-teritorial compounds = 8-10 guards including a least 1 veteran with cyberware (like boosted + smartlink). Patrol guards have jackets or armored clothes and vests plus formfit. Pistols with gel, SMG's with lethal and recoilcomp + laser sights, stun rods. Guards in security center have light sec armor, Assualt rifles with recoilcomp, 1 or 2 grenades and somebody with an auto shotgun. Layer 2 = astral magical support, HRT team in city master 5-10 minutes away.
4.) Medium ET compound on up = varies with situation. At this point you might start seeing CCSS systems, on sight magicians, armed drones and last ditch gas delivery systems.
The secret to running low powered guards is thinking about their training. If officers are present (still alive) the will stay and fight together. Lose the officers they retreat and wait for backup. Even guards with no cyber and SMG's can put up a good fight if they work together and use their superior building knowledge against the runners. I tend to have guards use all of their combat pool for soak and dodge and just use their base skills for combat. Its keeps them alive MUCH longer and for me at least it seems more realistic. The sec guards don't know they are meat and wouldn't burn all their combat pool and karma on the opening salvo just to cack a runner or two.
Bit, Kage:
I fully support, encourage and in fact endorse GMs to improvise rules on the fly.
However, I must concede from a strictly canon point of view, if we adhere to strictly canon as some would have us do, things tend to fall apart.
I am taking an extremist view in order to point out glaring inconsistencies that make no practical sense and indeed should be addressed by intelligent gamers/GMs.
With that in mind, any time I mention "pulling a Doc Funk", please understand that I do realize common sense would alter the scenario accordingly, but not everybody is in favor of deviating from the rules.
I have watched gamers stand up and argue with the GM over a sentence in the text and how it could or couldn't be interpreted. Hence, I provide the extreme canonical point of view when necessary and trust the more rational among you to realize this and adjust necessary perceptions accordingly.
-Siege
I fully support, encourage and in fact endorse GMs to improvise rules on the fly.
However, I must concede from a strictly canon point of view, if we adhere to strictly canon as some would have us do, things tend to fall apart.
I am taking an extremist view in order to point out glaring inconsistencies that make no practical sense and indeed should be addressed by intelligent gamers/GMs.
With that in mind, any time I mention "pulling a Doc Funk", please understand that I do realize common sense would alter the scenario accordingly, but not everybody is in favor of deviating from the rules.
I have watched gamers stand up and argue with the GM over a sentence in the text and how it could or couldn't be interpreted. Hence, I provide the extreme canonical point of view when necessary and trust the more rational among you to realize this and adjust necessary perceptions accordingly.
-Siege
No problem, and I agree! we should make that a semi-official board term! 
Everyone seems to be forgeting the bane of any cocky runner team, the security mage. Places that require powerful but inconspicious security will certainly use them. A couple of decent mages with the right spells and some expendable foci can be just as effective as a full SWAT team, probably cost the same in the long run, and are much less liekly to draw attention.
However you decide to outfit your security, give each of them names and write short descriptions. You don't even have to use complete sentences, just a phrase or two to remind you of their general personality, if they're married, ect. It helps if the runners have a reason to interact socialy with the guards.
However you decide to outfit your security, give each of them names and write short descriptions. You don't even have to use complete sentences, just a phrase or two to remind you of their general personality, if they're married, ect. It helps if the runners have a reason to interact socialy with the guards.
So let me get this straight.
Because I prefer to stick to the rules as written when applicable in a conversation (considering you have to use a baseline when discussing things), and specify when I'm personally deviating from them and using a house rule or a personal preference, that must obviously mean I'm a rules lawyer when gaming and GMing. Right. Okay. Whatever.
Because I prefer to stick to the rules as written when applicable in a conversation (considering you have to use a baseline when discussing things), and specify when I'm personally deviating from them and using a house rule or a personal preference, that must obviously mean I'm a rules lawyer when gaming and GMing. Right. Okay. Whatever.
Hah! I thought the name looked familiar.
Actually, I attribute that conditional to you because on at least one occasion, your final answer to everything was "it's in the book. That's the rule. Because it's in the book, we must use that rule, regardless of what common sense says."
So, congrats - you have been immortalized in informal canon. Ooooh, the irony.
Pulling a Doc Funk - An absurd, extremist adherence to the rules in defiance of any practical or common sense considerations.
Anyone else want to expound on the definition?
-Siege
Edit: Thanks Kage - I blame the beer.
Actually, I attribute that conditional to you because on at least one occasion, your final answer to everything was "it's in the book. That's the rule. Because it's in the book, we must use that rule, regardless of what common sense says."
So, congrats - you have been immortalized in informal canon. Ooooh, the irony.
Pulling a Doc Funk - An absurd, extremist adherence to the rules in defiance of any practical or common sense considerations.
Anyone else want to expound on the definition?
-Siege
Edit: Thanks Kage - I blame the beer.
No, but I'd like some expounding on where the extra "ir" in "regardless" came from
~J
~J
It mugged the "In" from inflammable, broke a chunk off for disguise and wandered into the world to wreak havoc.
| QUOTE (Siege @ Jul 22 2004, 09:54 PM) |
| Actually, I attribute that conditional to you because on at least one occasion, your final answer to everything was "it's in the book. That's the rule. Because it's in the book, we must use that rule, regardless of what common sense says." |
Correction: Wrong. It was more along the lines of, "that's how the rules go by. Your own personal house rules are precisely that. But for anyone playing by the rules, it works like this." Heaven forbid someone discusses the rules as written, eh?
| QUOTE |
| Pulling a Doc Funk - An absurd, extremist adherence to the rules in defiance of any practical or common sense considerations. |
Correction: In defiance of your idea of common sense. I happen to see the game as a (gasp) game and tend to keep an eye on game balance instead of beating off about realism, especially considering it's a game including elves, dragons, and magic.
Oh, wait, let me pull a Siege: <says something asinine and juvenile> Duh huh.
Come on, guys. Let's not get personal, shall we, Siege, Funk? OK?
I agree with the latest incarnation of Funk. If we do not talk about the Canon rules, then there is not much of anything meaningful to talk about when we are discussing the rules is there? The rules for sec guards is this case are pretty practical and common sensical. Professionalism is measured by the amount of damage they will take before running. There is also that Creating a Prime Runner rules in p83 SR Comp. That decides the stats of the NPC guards. So a Professional Inferior guard will be easily ground into dog meat before running away.
I agree with the latest incarnation of Funk. If we do not talk about the Canon rules, then there is not much of anything meaningful to talk about when we are discussing the rules is there? The rules for sec guards is this case are pretty practical and common sensical. Professionalism is measured by the amount of damage they will take before running. There is also that Creating a Prime Runner rules in p83 SR Comp. That decides the stats of the NPC guards. So a Professional Inferior guard will be easily ground into dog meat before running away.
I didn't read all the thread, but tried to read most of it. Lots of great ideas here for Shadowrun, but lemme relate what I know from personal experience.
I've been a security guard for over 6 years. During that time i've worked for a variety of corps, some large and some small, and I can tell you the quality of security is 100% managements decision, NOT in any way based on value or whatever. I've stood over holes in the ground given 24 hour security, with cameras and time clocks for rounds, on the off chance someone would walk 30 miles out of civilization to find the hole, twist an ankle, and sue. I've also seen some very valuable, open equipment guarded by a single guard coming by for 5 minuites every 4 hours.
The typical guard is just a working-class joe who wants to doze on a quiet shift, go home and eat some TV dinner and watch TV. As one of the first posts suggest, they typically are pretty dumb. You gotta remember, the typical guard has 360 some days of doing 8-16 hour shifts of NOTHING but occasional paperwork. The other 5 days of the year, something weird will come up (car stolen from lot, plant explosion, etc). When something serious DOES happen the guard is supposed to watch for, 9/10 times they're gonna call their own corps managament, or sit there and try to remember the 8-page checklist the client gave them 2 years ago just in case something comes up. For the most part, unless SWAT or special forces "always ready" level, they're gonna be pretty unprepared.
Worst guarding I knew was a guy who came by for check in, and went home to sleep for 7 hours before coming back for check-out. 2nd worst guy slept all shift and left 3 hours early (worked a crazy scam to get around the time clocks, i still dunno how). I'd say the typical 2nd or 3rd shift guard is at least dozing 5 minuites after management leaves. Hell, my site managers would TELL me at site orientation when to sleep, and when to be awake so the client didn't see.
I have had the opportunity to work with some "elite" security guards once, from a huge Texas firm. A plant I was at was striking, so the management called these guards to watch for union sabotage. They were well-know across the country for their professionalism and record at handling violent situations very well. They had at least 2 armed guys at each gate at all times, a team of 6 with full surveillance suite and van (for evidence if we had to press charges) during the busy daytime shifts. These guys were CRACK troops. We worked out a detailed schedule so the rest of us could sleep in the tiny AC'ed guard booth while one of them stayed on duty for an hour, then we switched off. Beautiful gig.
Corp security was usually a little better, in that they were better drilled in what to do in an emergency. They also knew the site a little better, which comes from doing almost 3,000 rounds a year for several years. Thats really what security guards do best, they know when anything is out of place or unusual, right away.
I've been a security guard for over 6 years. During that time i've worked for a variety of corps, some large and some small, and I can tell you the quality of security is 100% managements decision, NOT in any way based on value or whatever. I've stood over holes in the ground given 24 hour security, with cameras and time clocks for rounds, on the off chance someone would walk 30 miles out of civilization to find the hole, twist an ankle, and sue. I've also seen some very valuable, open equipment guarded by a single guard coming by for 5 minuites every 4 hours.
The typical guard is just a working-class joe who wants to doze on a quiet shift, go home and eat some TV dinner and watch TV. As one of the first posts suggest, they typically are pretty dumb. You gotta remember, the typical guard has 360 some days of doing 8-16 hour shifts of NOTHING but occasional paperwork. The other 5 days of the year, something weird will come up (car stolen from lot, plant explosion, etc). When something serious DOES happen the guard is supposed to watch for, 9/10 times they're gonna call their own corps managament, or sit there and try to remember the 8-page checklist the client gave them 2 years ago just in case something comes up. For the most part, unless SWAT or special forces "always ready" level, they're gonna be pretty unprepared.
Worst guarding I knew was a guy who came by for check in, and went home to sleep for 7 hours before coming back for check-out. 2nd worst guy slept all shift and left 3 hours early (worked a crazy scam to get around the time clocks, i still dunno how). I'd say the typical 2nd or 3rd shift guard is at least dozing 5 minuites after management leaves. Hell, my site managers would TELL me at site orientation when to sleep, and when to be awake so the client didn't see.
I have had the opportunity to work with some "elite" security guards once, from a huge Texas firm. A plant I was at was striking, so the management called these guards to watch for union sabotage. They were well-know across the country for their professionalism and record at handling violent situations very well. They had at least 2 armed guys at each gate at all times, a team of 6 with full surveillance suite and van (for evidence if we had to press charges) during the busy daytime shifts. These guys were CRACK troops. We worked out a detailed schedule so the rest of us could sleep in the tiny AC'ed guard booth while one of them stayed on duty for an hour, then we switched off. Beautiful gig.
Corp security was usually a little better, in that they were better drilled in what to do in an emergency. They also knew the site a little better, which comes from doing almost 3,000 rounds a year for several years. Thats really what security guards do best, they know when anything is out of place or unusual, right away.
Don't worry Tot - I avoid Funk nowadays. Unfortunately, the phrase kinda sticks.
Don't blame me if I'm not the only one who recognizes it.
-Siege
Edit: We could add, "usually resorts to a barrage of personal attacks when all else fails", but that could be a special treatement reserved for me.
Don't blame me if I'm not the only one who recognizes it.
-Siege
Edit: We could add, "usually resorts to a barrage of personal attacks when all else fails", but that could be a special treatement reserved for me.
Only after the other side starts with them.
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Snicker - "criminals who perform heinous crimes for nuyen." It's in a book - someone more awake than I will have to reference it. It's the "Omega Security" memo posted on Shadowland. -Trevor |
most likley the "how to hire a shadowrunner" chapter in srcomp...
personaly im with the monkey on the rules vs common sense department. if there is a rule for something there is most likely a reason for it being there...
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