I know this comes up all the time but I have a question about SUT.

If I understand the rules, you spend a complex action, make the roll and depending on the results, apply a mod to your initiative.

So, combat occures. You spend your first pass analyzing the situation and then, dice willing, you apply that bonus to the next pass or the next roll or does it take affect that pass?

Am I even close on this?

It takes effect on the next Combat Turn if memory serves.

You only have to do that complex action (or simple, if you cyber battletac) when you want to apply an init bonus to the whole group. If you're doing it for yourself, no need for any actions at all.

You do it as your last action of the round, and it applies to the next round.

~J

Of course, if you see the fight coming (such as if you are the aggressor), I don't believe there's anything stopping you from taking such actions just before combat, to gain the benefits of the skill during the first initiative round.

By the by, the bonus to initiative, is that bonus (averaging about +1 for skill level 4, just to give you an idea) to initiative *score*, or initiative *dice*?

That is, say someone's natural initiative is 4+1d6. He rolls his 4 SUT dice against TN 4 (I'm assuming the TN is 4 for his own independent analysis) and comes up with two successes. The next combat turn, is his initiative 4+1d6+1, or 4+2d6?

Score, I believe.

Check out page 48 of M&M. It's a boost to the Reaction attribute, that only helps in determining Iniative and in surprise tests.

Don

You can substitute it for Combat Pool instead of initiative as an optional rule, but I can see why it's an optional rule.

Weak or not, when you consider how much reaction enhancers cost, its a pretty good deal. Especially if you apply it to the whole group at once.

Every two successes grant a +1 to your Initiative roll on your next Combat Turn and +1 for any Reaction Tests (such as when quick-drawing) or Surprise Tests. It doesn't actually increase your Initiative or Reaction score. And if you think a +1 to either of those are a weak result from a single mundane skill, I'm fearful of the games you must play in.

no kidding, especially when you start doing stuff like taking Aptitude for it.

+1 may not make much difference at the level of a typical shadowrunner, but it means quite a bit more at the level of, say, a squad of unenhanced soldiers or gangers. and if you allow it to add to combat pool, it becomes handy at just about level.

Eyeless, you missed the second sentence under SUT and Combat Pool on CC p166, where it explicitly says that you recieve the Combat Pool bonus instead of the initiative bonus.

also, the SUT bonus does not apply to Reaction for the purposes of Quick Draw and other Reaction-related tests. it adds +1 dice to Reaction tests only for the purposes of Surprise tests, and only when the SUT roller is preparing for an ambush (either as the ambusher or the ambushee).

The M&M entry states that it's for Reaction/Surprise Tests. If it only applies to Surprise Tests, there would be no need to mention Reaction; it would just be a +1 bonus to Surprise Tests. They're two completely different types of tests even if they use the same attribute. If the CC entry states otherwise, I stand corrected.

the CC entry does indeed state otherwise--at least, the only context it mentions a bonus to Reaction tests is a character preparing for ambush. personally, i'd keep it limited to that--no reason SUT should allow you to have more success drawing a weapon quickly, or (to get really extreme) drive a car without training.

It could represent any number of things. For the quick-draw test, it could represent a slightly earlier warning that something was going down, thereby giving you a minor edge to pull your weapon out in time. For a driving test, it could represent getting an order to perform a maneuver due to something you yourself weren't aware of. etc.

eh, maybe. quick drawing i'd possibly allow if the player bought me pizza, but driving too much of a stretch--especially since it doesn't help actual, trained drivers. hell, imagine doing this with a rigger: he takes feeds from his drone network to improve the rating of his tactical computer, which bumps his SUT skill into the double-digits. he then uses SUT on himself as a non-action, raising his Reaction by four or five points, boosting his effective vehicle skill by the same amount if he's been wise enough to not take any vehicle skills at all (so that he can default). and because he's using a VCR, the maximum total TN mod he'll take for defaulting is +1. if he's got a rating 2 VCR, there is effectively no penalty.

Remember that it would only give bonus dice for simple maneuvers for untrained drivers. Once the speed, terrain, and complexity of action go too high (like 8), no defaulting is possible and the vehicle crashes.

true, but an extra five dice on your driving tests because you're a tactical badass still isn't kosher, in my book.

I dunno. If you're managing ten successes on average, you're a bad ass to begin with who's invested in a Tactical Computer or something. You deserve a sizable benefit.

It's not like it's a TN bonus, yanno... just extra dice. Five extra dice against a TN of 8 isn't going to alter the outcome significantly.

speaking of which, d'you think riggers benefitting from SUT should be able to apply it to their control pool? i mean, it's used for the same things combat pool is--dodging, shooting, soaking, etc.

I'd say no because control pool does things beyond the scope of combat pool... actually.. I could probably go either way.

It says something like: "Every two successes provide a +1 bonus to Reaction/Surprise Tests in addition to the +1 bonus to initiative." It doesn't boost Initiative or Reaction, it just provides a benefit to Reaction Tests and initiative rolls. He's just trying to fast talk his way into an extra +1+1D6 bonus for every two successes.

Actually, I believe he was saying you could get both initiative boosts and combat pool boosts.

JaronK

I was saying that you can get both initiative boosts (the original intention of the skill) and when making tests for surprise in an ambush; you don't have to choose between them as was implied above.

My original argument was that the skill was useless if the initiative boost was only +1 to the *score* per two successes, because even with a skill of 6 you're only likely to get a +1.5 to initiative on average. I didn't however take into account how twinktastic some riggers could get with that particular skill (bonus dice *and* reduced TNs), so I respectfully withdraw my argument.

I also wasn't talking about Combat Pool in any way, as the rules I was looking at were in M&M, which does not ever mention Combat Pool. That was someone else's mistake.

right. i was just confused because he says he didn't say what i said he said--he says Zazen said what i say he said, which is to say that Eyeless didn't say it. but i say Eyeless did say it, because you can scroll up the page and see he said what i say he said.

as it turns out, however, he was talking about some other optional rule.

See?