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Fygg Nuuton
why do your players complain?

i have heard that i am anal because:

-I ask where they keep there spare ammunition, its not magically with the character (i dont get this one)
-i enforce legality, so you cannot run around with titanium lacing and wired 3 in my game without consequences
-i use cops, not encounters. there are 2 cops in squad cars on daily patrols, there are cops in coffee houses on breaks, there are cops doing nnormal things, they dont only respond when shots have been fired
-i use common sense. if you have been shot in the mouth, with a shotgun i dont care what your armor rating is, and i dont care what your body score is, you have just died, and if you didnt die, theres a good chance you already were
-if steve hands me a character with an odd gun, titanium lacing, trauma dampener etc etc etc and the character dies, then steve hands me a new character with the same stuff, i ask why the character has such things
-on that note, if steve plays something, such as an ex beat cop, and the beat cop has a high skill rating in something, such as heavy weapons, i will wonder how he has that. i'm not against a high level in heavy weapons, i just don't see how the beat cop has that skill at 6
spitfire gecko
QUOTE
-if steve hands me a character with an odd gun, titanium lacing, trauma dampener etc etc etc and the character dies, then steve hands me a new character with the same stuff, i ask why the character has such things

'Cause Steve 2 is the (ex) beat cop who killed Steve 1 and looted his stuff. smile.gif
KillaJ
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
-on that note, if steve plays something, such as an ex beat cop, and the beat cop has a high skill rating in something, such as heavy weapons, i will wonder how he has that. i'm not against a high level in heavy weapons, i just don't see how the beat cop has that skill at 6

Maybe he was the cop on duty at the local high school. cyber.gif
Eyeless Blond
I was with you up until this one:
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
-i use common sense.  if you have been shot in the mouth, with a shotgun i dont care what your armor rating is, and i dont care what your body score is, you have just died, and if you didnt die, theres a good chance you already were

This worries me. You're really not supposed to know where a shot went or how hard it hit you until *after* the combat, damage resistance etc tests have already been made. In fact it's those tests that determine where the shot went and ow hard it hit, rather than the other way around. You seem to be saying here that you decide where the shot goes first, and based on that you arbitrarily disallow armor or apply other modifiers depending on your mood. This seems the opposite of common sense to me.
JaronK
I got complaints that I was rushing the game too much from one of my players, and that she really wanted things slowed down a bit. Moments after she said this, another player decided to drop out, because things were moving too slowly. Can't win, I tell ya!

JaronK
Domino
I think you are an evil prick and should have your GM socks taken away from you. biggrin.gif
Sahandrian
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
I was with you up until this one:
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
-i use common sense.  if you have been shot in the mouth, with a shotgun i dont care what your armor rating is, and i dont care what your body score is, you have just died, and if you didnt die, theres a good chance you already were

This worries me. You're really not supposed to know where a shot went or how hard it hit you until *after* the combat, damage resistance etc tests have already been made. In fact it's those tests that determine where the shot went and ow hard it hit, rather than the other way around. You seem to be saying here that you decide where the shot goes first, and based on that you arbitrarily disallow armor or apply other modifiers depending on your mood. This seems the opposite of common sense to me.

Unless, of course, the character is being held by the run's opposition, adn they then decide to execute him by shoving a shotgun in his mouth and pulling the trigger...

Then it's very, very clear where the shot went.
Odin
QUOTE
-I ask where they keep there spare ammunition, its not magically with the character (i dont get this one)

Every one knows runners have ammo pouches sewn into their knickers.biggrin.gif
QUOTE
-i enforce legality, so you cannot run around with titanium lacing and wired 3 in my game without consequences

Fair enough.
QUOTE
-i use cops, not encounters. there are 2 cops in squad cars on daily patrols, there are cops in coffee houses on breaks, there are cops doing nnormal things, they dont only respond when shots have been fired

I'm with you and not with you on this point. As this is highly dependant on neighborhood ,jurisdiction etc. I'm not saying some lonestar cops isn't going to start taking shots at the runners on corp property it's just unlikely he'll get any back up unless the runners are idiots and decide to geek the dumb cop.
QUOTE
-i use common sense. if you have been shot in the mouth, with a shotgun i dont care what your armor rating is, and i dont care what your body score is, you have just died, and if you didnt die, theres a good chance you already were

I assume this is a called shot.... although I see the reason for this I might only give out a deadly wound myself and at least give his buddies a chance to stabilize him as I see trying to Auto-geek the runners overly punitive although if he had been riding my craw for abit I might just as easily forget what I just typed. wink.gif
QUOTE
-if steve hands me a character with an odd gun, titanium lacing, trauma dampener etc etc etc and the character dies, then steve hands me a new character with the same stuff, i ask why the character has such things
I agree with you on this point and I'd say that you should possibly suggest he try a different Archetype ....I wouldn't force the issue but yeah adepts/sammies with exactly the same abilities/cyber are pretty annoying .... you could always give a 3 buildpoint bonus if he comes up with an original concept as it's amazing what a character will go through for a few more points.
QUOTE
on that note, if steve plays something, such as an ex beat cop, and the beat cop has a high skill rating in something, such as heavy weapons, i will wonder how he has that. i'm not against a high level in heavy weapons, i just don't see how the beat cop has that skill at 6
yeah thats mostly an issue with min-maxers I suggest savagely beating steve until he learns to role-play.
Fygg Nuuton
on the shotgun:

player was detained, shotgun barrel was in the mouth, character kicked the shogun guy, shotgun went off, player died. i ased 2 times if they were sure before they kicked. player complained that they didnt get damage resistance.

for some reason i do not think the back of your head is very resistant to a shotgun shell, but im no biologist
The White Dwarf
Theyre all valid points to enforce except the shotgun one. If a sam with titanium bone lacing gets shot in the mouth, theres a real chance he *could* survive. The game is berift with other examples of todays common sense != SR's common sense. Thus, Id just default to the rules. In that case, allow the character a damage resistance test against a shotgun called shot without armor (except demal/bone armor) and no combat pool; because thats what the shot is. Trying to logic-ify the dice out works fine, if you do it across the board. Allowing dice in some rolls and not others is imbalancing, regardless of circumstances, imo. Youll always hit cases where the people involved see things differently, and if you always fall back on the rules there is a predetermined and impartial way to resolve it all, rather than having to decide on one with a mid/post game discussion.
Azrael
More to the point, have your players ever complemented you on something ?

But on the complaints side:

- Deckers (hence we haven't had a PC one for 5 years)
- That dodging was scrapped from 2nd ed after being in 1st, so we implemented for 2nd ed and were very glad it came back in 3rd
- Having NPCs take cover and the players wondering why they don't last long standing in the middle of a field shooting it out with them
- Our resident munchkin once had a spit that a spirit nearly killed him and "Why the hell didn't it die - I put a full clip of explosive into it". Its amazing what you can do with players who don't read the rules cover to cover, and hence their impression of the world is completely from what their character's background is and what they have encountered in play.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (The White Dwarf)
If a sam with titanium bone lacing gets shot in the mouth, theres a real chance he *could* survive.

Yeah, several people who've tried to kill themselves with a shotgun have managed to survive. Most because they decided they didn't really want to die 0.1 seconds before they pressed the trigger. With titanium bone lacing, this would be more likely. Regardless, no titanium bone lacing thin enough to not impede the functioning of a human would have a snowflakes chance in hell of stopping any type of shot, certainly not buckshot, and don't even ask about slugs, at the range of 1".

The only difference titanium lacing might do is that, if the barrel is already pointed poorly so that nothing hits the spine at a decent angle, the blunt force trauma of the shot/slug hammering through the back/sides of your head/neck and possibly glancing off the spine is less likely to kill you.

I get whined at mostly because NPCs sometimes get lucky. My players do not seem able to grasp the fact that dice don't stop rolling 6s just because I roll them for NPCs.
The White Dwarf
Fair enough, guess Ive always thought of it like Wolverine's skeleton, which can stop lead. Whatever works for ya.

And yes, lucky NPCs are da debbil. I think its human nature to always presume youre lucky and the other guy isnt... sucks for you condition moniter to assume that eh.

I think the worst complaint tho is the "it doesnt work that way in RL, thats not what I expected" whine. Like, when people are decking and get thwarted cause its not how computers work now; or when they say "security wouldnt do that, not in RL"; or "wheres the fire escape, the building has to have one for public safey code". Suck it up, the year 2063+magic isnt too much like now either, is it. Trying to play a realistic game is one thing, but trying to play reality would sorta take out the game part.
Mr.Platinum
Sounds like your players are just a bunch of Panty Waistes.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
on the shotgun:

player was detained, shotgun barrel was in the mouth, character kicked the shogun guy, shotgun went off, player died. i ased 2 times if they were sure before they kicked. player complained that they didnt get damage resistance.

for some reason i do not think the back of your head is very resistant to a shotgun shell, but im no biologist

No armor, Power 10, no combat pool.

You should have let them resist, it makes players feel special.

~J
D.Generate
I have to agree with the whole shotgun thing. Stupid players need to be punished not rewarded. Bone lacing Titanium or other wise is nothign like wolverine, in fact on that note bullets don't bounce off of him they go into him and his high healing factor keeps him alive. I don't know why everyone thinks Bone lacing makes you a tank, it doesn't just re-enforces your bones to make you more resistant to punishment.

My players like the fact that my game is very realistic. Of course I don't try to kill them, obviously everyone has bad night with dice rolls and such. But if they do something dumb like kick a guy wo has a shotgun in their mouth and it goes off then I'm sorry you are making a new character.

I'm not saying people who run shadowrun anyother way are wrong I'm just saying that if your players know before hand that its going to be more realistic then they shouldn't complain when they die because of something they did.
FXcalibur
Sounds like the players were expecting a different type of game than what Fygg was providing.

Probably best to ask the GM if he's running a serious or not so serious game so you synch up your expectations. If the player knew Fygg was running it realistically, might be have changed his action, or did Fygg already spell it out to him and the player was just being stupid?
Backgammon
Reasons why my players bitch at me:
  • TN too high so they don't wipe out the opposition in 2 seconds
  • I stick to rules instead of making house rules in my players favour
  • Not enough stuff to do for non-combat characters
  • Don't give them the gear they want
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
-I ask where they keep there spare ammunition, its not magically with the character (i dont get this one)

Though while im not strict on Ammo counting, if my players try and empty 20 rnds from an unmodified Pred, the gun goes "click" at whatever time i choose, humouress or otherwise

QUOTE
-i enforce legality, so you cannot run around with titanium lacing and wired 3 in my game without consequences
Although i don't enforce it myself, i wouldn't have any issue's with another GM doing it. (as long as i know before hand)

QUOTE
-i use common sense.  if you have been shot in the mouth, with a shotgun i dont care what your armor rating is, and i dont care what your body score is, you have just died, and if you didnt die, theres a good chance you already were
Hear that. Definatley pizza topping

QUOTE
-if steve hands me a character with an odd gun, titanium lacing, trauma dampener etc etc etc and the character dies, then steve hands me a new character with the same stuff, i ask why the character has such things

I get get this with a player always wanting to play Elven Physad's with katana's.. Gets kinda dull.

QUOTE
-on that note, if steve plays something, such as an ex beat cop, and the beat cop has a high skill rating in something, such as heavy weapons, i will wonder how he has that.  i'm not against a high level in heavy weapons, i just don't see how the beat cop has that skill at 6

I always get my players to explain high/ odd skills

QUOTE (BackGammon)

TN too high so they don't wipe out the opposition in 2 seconds

But it's ok for the bad guy to have high Tn's, oh yeah.
UpSyndrome
One time the decker in our group sold out the street sam by giving his personal information (including place of residence) to a team of Sioux Wildcats who were after him for a sleeper assassination he pulled (gotta love mysterious cyberware). Then the decker goes and tells the street sam that he came across some matrix info that indicated that this team of elite special ops guys were after him and knew where he lived (of course, leaving out the part that he was the one to give them the information for 5,000 cred).
The street sam decides he's gonna go back to his apartment to get his stuff, at which point I said something like, "Are you sure you want to go back to your apartment?" I don't normally give ooc clues but I had only intended to use the Wildcats as a sort of background threat, always on the heels of the street sam. So he goes back to the apartment anyway and of course, these guys take him out (though I think he got the captain with a claymore mine, Punisher style).
This was months ago, I'm not even GMing anymore, and I still get an occasional complaint about mysterious cyberware.
-Joe
Large Mike

I've never had a complaint while running my own game. Lucky me, I guess.

Actually, that's not strictly true. I once had a complaint from one of my players that he just plain old didn't like the game, but I still GM Unknown Armies for him and occationally D&D (as much as I dislike the game), so I think it was just Shadowrun in general he didn't dig.
Deacon
QUOTE
Originally posted by Fygg Nuuton:
-I ask where they keep there spare ammunition, its not magically with the character (i dont get this one)

I don't get it either. I guess your players are used to playing first-person shooter games or action movies where you can run around with unlimited ammo. I don't ask for reasons of encumbrance; my NPC mages are fond of using Lightning Bolt, and that spell (in my game) will cook off EX Explosive ammo... and my base rule is, one clip = one grenade exploding right next to you, no chance of using combat pool to dodge (like you could dodge an area effect weapon in the first place)
QUOTE
-i enforce legality, so you cannot run around with titanium lacing and wired 3 in my game without consequences

Twinks. To cure that problem, start convincing your players that running around with these things is not only going to get them in trouble with the cops, it's going to make them a target from their other runners. After the third or fourth ambush they survive, all because some other runner wants to yank out their Wired 3 and install in into themselves, they might get the clue. It's easier (and cheaper) to steal someone else's high-grade 'ware than to find a legitimate source...
QUOTE
-i use cops, not encounters. there are 2 cops in squad cars on daily patrols, there are cops in coffee houses on breaks, there are cops doing nnormal things, they dont only respond when shots have been fired

Imagine that, police forces exist. Although I almost never use just two patrolmen on watch; these days, every Lone Star or Knight Errant vehicle is actually rigged from HQ, and comes with its own rotodrone or wheeled 'heavy backup' drone in case it's needed. After all, a rigger can sit back at HQ in Captain's Chair mode, monitoring several cruisers at once, and if a team needs backup, it's there. Just remember that in areas of lesser security rating (C, D, E), cops aren't going to come just because shots were fired. If someone's tossing around grenades, on the other hand...
QUOTE
-i use common sense. if you have been shot in the mouth, with a shotgun i dont care what your armor rating is, and i dont care what your body score is, you have just died, and if you didnt die, theres a good chance you already were

Yes... and no. There are plenty of cases where someone's shot themselves in the mouth and survived, because the bullet exited through the side of the skull, lodged itself in bone or (in one case I know of) was swallowed at just the right moment. Still, all in all, if you've been shot in the head without armor, chances are that if you are not dead, you are becoming that way very very rapidly.
QUOTE
-if steve hands me a character with an odd gun, titanium lacing, trauma dampener etc etc etc and the character dies, then steve hands me a new character with the same stuff, i ask why the character has such things

Steve needs to learn that there is no factory stamping out cookie-cutter samurai or adepts; I always require that PCs come up with a believable, credible backstory for their characters before they play, usually requiring at least 20 of the 'thirty questions' be answered. I also require that players who lose a character not play the same archetype for their next character -- meaning that if you just played a gunbunny samurai who got ganked, you do not come in with a gunbunny adept; a bodyguard samurai, or a sniper, or an intrusion specialist are all acceptable character types, though.
QUOTE
-on that note, if steve plays something, such as an ex beat cop, and the beat cop has a high skill rating in something, such as heavy weapons, i will wonder how he has that. i'm not against a high level in heavy weapons, i just don't see how the beat cop has that skill at 6

Remember what I said about credible backstories? There's nothing wrong with said beat cop having Heavy Weapons at 6, so long as he can explain it in a fashion that makes sense and seems credible. Perhaps said beat cop was a grunt in Ares' Arms corporate military in Desert Wars before a shell explosion nearby caused him a 10% hearing loss in his right ear, and Ares decided to transfer him to Knight Errant for 'light duty'. That's believable, and credible. He could easily have a 6 in Heavy Weapons from those days in the corporate military, but I'd also expect to see him have some knowledge and background skills relating to that past as well. Or perhaps the cop was trained in heavy weapons as part of his job -- using a medium machine gun to combat terrorist forces who, these days, can come with trolls who are as well-armored as light patrol vehicles. Also credible and believable. (Makes me wonder why Steve thinks Heavy Weapons will be needed on a Shadowrun -- after all, the key to the run is not to be noticed -- and makes me think that this idea needs to be disabused very very quickly in the player.)

QUOTE
Originally posted by Backgammon:
Reasons why my players bitch at me:

  • TN too high so they don't wipe out the opposition in 2 seconds
  • I stick to rules instead of making house rules in my players favour
  • Not enough stuff to do for non-combat characters
  • Don't give them the gear they want

Everything except #3 makes me think that you need to take your players in the backyard and kick them in the ass repeatedly until their brains dislodge from their backsides. #3 makes me think that the players need to do that to you. If you want to run a combat game, play D&D or Cyberpunk 2020. Shadowrun isn't meant to be a combat game; the main goal of any shadow operation is to avoid combat, hence the term 'shadow', meaning 'unseen' or 'quiet'.
Backgammon
Well, we're playing a SOTA in-house black ops team from Renraku, between the deniability of shadowrunners and the power of a Red Samurai strike team, so things are a little differant. I have 5 players, so I can't be taking the time to roleplay with each character. We have 2 combat monsters, a do-it-all team leader, a rigger and a electronics/face guy. I've just recently begun really adding various rigging challenges and miscellaneous electronics challenges, so that's working out ok for the Rigger now. But the electronics/face still lacks things to do when we're not doing a facility B&E job (at which point he is indispensable). But still, specialised characters are hard to integrate all the time.
Necro Tech
And those are the breaks making a character that is too specialized. You might be the biggest baddest sword weilding adept the world has ever seen but if thats all you got, be preparred to wait in the car. Or, like a player in my game, she just accepts that she is a speciallist and doesn't complain if we get into that long awaited fire fight that takes 4 hours to resolve.
BitBasher
QUOTE (Deacon)
Shadowrun isn't meant to be a combat game; the main goal of any shadow operation is to avoid combat, hence the term 'shadow', meaning 'unseen' or 'quiet'.
Except this line you were doing good. There's more than one way to run a game and it definitely can be combat oriented. What if the game is a strongarm game, your group could specialize in enforcement and collections. You could be hitters for when a statement needs to be made and it needs to be obvious. You could be in a special forces or mercenary game. You could be in a normal shadowrun game that specializes in asset retribution. You could be in a Lone Star SWAT game. The list of combat oriented games is very, very long in the SR universe. There's LOTS of uses in the shadows for a team that's not afraid to go in loud and is competent at it.

If you would have said "My shadowrun game is not combat oriented" then it would have been much better. biggrin.gif
Fygg Nuuton
my games are serious, but i have a sense of humor too large for anybody, so if something funny comes up i run with it. i use as much realism as i can, meaning if you shoot someone with a 9mm they will not fly back 120feet.

the shotgun boy had been playing in my game for about 3 months? twice a week, no wonder i get burned out hehe. anyway every session he would pull 2-3 stupid moves. the character had plastic bone lacing, i will set the scene as best i can in a short amount of time.

character runs at a group of NPCs, about to do god knows what, i think he just saw equilibrium, ive seen parts so i can only imagine. inside melee range he shoots the ork with his pistol, the ork takes a light wound. hes being held down by an ork and a bouncer type human, with the third man holding a shotgun in his mouth, not near his mouth, in his mouth. at this point if your using any sense of realism or common sense, you do not move if the ork is yelling at your teamates to stop doing what theyre doing. however fred as i will now call him decides kicking the knee of shotgun guy is smart.

now in all fairness i figured on this role i would give fred no combat pool, no armor and his body of 4 to soak. the npc had his skill of 4 and combat pool, and at this range even being kicked the TN was like 2-3, so they were all successes. i told him what the roll was going to be, and i said "fred, if you don't want to kick this guy i won't think any less of you" and at this point he says then guy has it coming.


my compliments include:
-realistic. guns act pretty much the same, the matrix is not the same, i do not run it like normal computers no matter what i know about modern computers. magic obviously doesnt work like anything else
-i use realistic enemies, they do not just stand there, most people find that entertaining that the enemies fight like they dont want to die.
-i use smart enemies, they do not want to die. all the guards are not bruce willis.
-other people have actually complimented me on the fact that fred got wasted by that shotgun blast.

my runs usually can be done successfully without gunshots, because logically you dont want to kill 25 people a day, unless your crazy or stupid.

i do run sessions however such as ghoul extermination, take out every ghoul you can. watcher spirits follow you, every ghoul you kill gets you 100. the watcher is because i had no idea how to count the deaths wink.gif

during a ghoul run i dont make cops around, i dotn make random people stop them, because its just a fun combat session.
Smiley
QUOTE (UpSyndrome)
Then the decker goes and tells the street sam that he came across some matrix info that indicated that this team of elite special ops guys were after him and knew where he lived (of course, leaving out the part that he was the one to give them the information for 5,000 cred).
...

So he goes back to the apartment anyway and of course, these guys take him out (though I think he got the captain with a claymore mine, Punisher style).
This was months ago, I'm not even GMing anymore, and I still get an occasional complaint about mysterious cyberware.
-Joe

That's a good use of mysterious cyberware and the player who went back to his apartment was asking for it, but 5,000?? A measly 5,000? Did the sam do anything to piss all the others off or what? 5,000 is next to nothing.
Abstruse
I'm with the camp that you should've given him a damage resistance roll, even if it was made so that it would be a statistical impossibility for him to survive. Resisting a minimum of 8S (lowest shotgun damage) and a max of 12Df I believe (shot rounds instead of slug in the highest damage shotgun) with a Body of 4, no combat pool, no armor, and rolling against a guy with a TN of 2 and combat pool...there's very little chance he'll stage it below D, but there IS a chance...just like it's very likely a person will die in those circumstances, but there IS a chance the slug will just tear through the back of his head and miss anything vital.

About bone lacing now...bone lacing isn't some magical bullet barrier floating around you. However, it IS effective slightly as armor at high levels. The most common place shot is the chest, and if your ribcage is laced in bone or other bulletproof material, then it will help in keeping from being injured as badly. However, bone lacing's main help against guns is that it helps prevent major trauma (thus higher damage) by reenforcing the bones and keeping them from breaking as well as helping the bone do its job as protecting internal organs. If the bullet hits bone and the bone doesn't break, then it is less likely that the organs the bones protect would be injured. That's why Titanium Bone Lacing offers an armor boost.

The Abstruse One
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Deacon)
There are plenty of cases where someone's shot themselves in the mouth and survived
I think all of those who survived such a shot used hand of god. If I remember right, the skull doesn't have any protective bones between the mouth and the brain, the trachea (breathing passage), or the corotid arteries (major blood vessels).

Fygg Nuuton, I believe Shadowrun is best as a gritty game. And that means the risk of character death should be very real to the players. If you don't allow a character to die when he should, all the other players feel like they can't die in the game. And if they feel like they can't die in the game, they'll do any damn stupid thing they want just to be the center of attention for a while. You should be congratulated on having the strength to kill that player character, and you don't need to doubt yourself just because the player complained.

I don't care at all if a player uses the same character design a second time. New characters often die (or go to jail) before the player feels like he's explored a character concept, and I'm happy to let him to run the same character design a second time. E.g. A Bear Shaman or Shark Shaman who has never gone beserk. A shapeshifter that fails his/her first attempt at regeneration. Run the same character design again. Pick a new name, erase loot and karma, and go for it.
Fygg Nuuton
well, i'm not complaining, more like wearing my badge of honor. vegm.gif

im not really evil, if you use common sense youll survive, but if you jump out and do something fun and it turns out awesome, thats truly fun. but if you mess up and die don't complain smile.gif

in anycase i am always open for online games, if you feel like killing me IM me smile.gif
RedmondLarry
By the way, not everyone dies when they do stupid things.

Today there were two lost eyes, one leg, and two magic points. No player character died.
Fygg Nuuton
QUOTE (OurTeam @ Aug 1 2004, 02:10 AM)
By the way, not everyone dies when they do stupid things.

Today there were two lost eyes, one leg, and two magic points. No player character died.

well if your experiencing a shotgun popsicle, and you kick the one holding it, you know there are only 2 outcomes to that scenario

2 lost eyes on one person, or seperate people?
Deacon
QUOTE (OurTeam)
I think all of those who survived such a shot used hand of god. If I remember right, the skull doesn't have any protective bones between the mouth and the brain, the trachea (breathing passage), or the corotid arteries (major blood vessels).

I wasn't speaking of in-game. I was speaking of real life. There have been people shot in the mouth who have survived, in real life.

Had Fred decided to HoG it, that's probably how I'd have described his surviving it, though. Moved aside at the right time and the slug exited the back of the neck just between the carotid and the spinal cord (don't swallow, Fred; you can't anyways).
RedmondLarry
Deacon, oh man with the religious name. I was speaking of real life. They did use hand of god. wink.gif

(The two lost eyes were on separate characters. We had 19 people show up for Shadowrun today in Redmond, WA. We ran multiple tables and had 3 GMs, playing Shadowrun Missions.)
Kurukami
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton @ Jul 31 2004, 09:17 AM)
on the shotgun:

player was detained, shotgun barrel was in the mouth, character kicked the shogun guy, shotgun went off, player died.  i ased 2 times if they were sure before they kicked.  player complained that they didnt get damage resistance.

for some reason i do not think the back of your head is very resistant to a shotgun shell, but im no biologist

That's pretty much the image I had from the initial description you gave, and you've got a point that that would be nearly certain death. However, I'd probably allow some kind of an attempted Dodge test, not to completely avoid the damage but to avoid the aforementioned certain death. Instead of blowing out the back of the character's skull, he could have twisted slightly aside so that the shell blew out his cheek and parts of his jaw and shoulder.

Man, I'd hate to see the cyberware repair cost on that. cyber.gif

(edit) I hadn't read the part about him being held down before posting. That does mitigate the question a bit... smile.gif I still might've let him Hand of God it, but only to try to use Combat Pool to dodge the damage somewhat. After all, Darwin Awards are given out for a reason...
UpSyndrome
QUOTE (Smiley)
QUOTE (UpSyndrome @ Jul 31 2004, 02:22 PM)
Then the decker goes and tells the street sam that he came across some matrix info that indicated that this team of elite special ops guys were after him and knew where he lived (of course, leaving out the part that he was the one to give them the information for 5,000 cred).
...

So he goes back to the apartment anyway and of course, these guys take him out (though I think he got the captain with a claymore mine, Punisher style).
This was months ago, I'm not even GMing anymore, and I still get an occasional complaint about mysterious cyberware.
-Joe

That's a good use of mysterious cyberware and the player who went back to his apartment was asking for it, but 5,000?? A measly 5,000? Did the sam do anything to piss all the others off or what? 5,000 is next to nothing.

I didn't know it at the time cause the decker was a new player in our group, but the guy tends to spaz out eventually with almost any character, and that decker was by far the worst. It wasn't really about the money though. He wanted revenge for being held at gunpoint by the street sam during his introduction adventure. Don't ask.

-Joe
Crisp
I'd just like to add that players tend to think "Adamantium-Indestructible-Wolverine-squeleton" when thinking about bone-lacing.

This reminded me the time when after being asked what his reaction to the SMG wielding Tir Ghost's demand to halt was, a PC casually said-"I'll keep on running, I've got Titanium bone lacing." Since he was a new player he got a warning-Do you Reeeeally want to do that? (Let the Special Forces soldier with a tricked-out SMG shooting who-knows what kind of special ammo empty a magazine on your back?)-He was a smart guy and took the ever-so-subtle hint...
Kanada Ten
They complain we never have time to play. I can handle that complaint, even though I'd really like it to change.
Moirdryd
Guess i`m kinda lucky that i`ve never really had any complaints when i`ve been running SR. But then i`ve been with my gaming group for a good number of years and know what they want and they know how i run a game, so its all even .
kevyn668
"Whaddya mean there're penaties to fire two guns at the same time?! I've never shot a pistol before but I bet I could sit right here and shoot the hell outta you."

That's probably my fav. Followed closely by: "Why can't I have a Panzer?"

Actually, I take that back. My all time fav is "Whaddya mean the cops are after us?! Oh, is it because I shot the StufferShack™ girl?"
Kagetenshi
Well, if he was sitting right there, and you were sitting right over there, and neither of you were moving, he probably could shoot the hell out of you with two pistols.

Keeping in mind that it only takes a bullet or two to shoot the hell out of an unarmored person sitting still.

~J
Moirdryd
This was more of an exclaimation of shock and horror than a complaint but:

"They`ve SOLD my gear?.. my Rifle?..."
kevyn668
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Well, if he was sitting right there, and you were sitting right over there, and neither of you were moving, he probably could shoot the hell out of you with two pistols.

Keeping in mind that it only takes a bullet or two to shoot the hell out of an unarmored person sitting still.

~J

You're not helping. biggrin.gif

I tried to explain the compexities of life-like combat but he wasn't buying so eventually I caved and said, "Game balance. Now piss off!"

Kidding, he actually got it after I asked him what he would do should someone start shooting at him.
The White Dwarf
Just to clarify...

I never said titanium made them invincilbe like wolverine.

I said I tend to think of it more akin to those terms, as far as what it *may* be capable of doing.

In that light, I could see (as in me personally thinking) that someone with that 'ware surving a shotgun shot in said circumstances, would be plausible insofar as that it could happen realisitically.

That said, given a body 4 char (6 with lacing, and 1 point of armor) vs. a 10S shotgun blast with 4 successes is looking at real slim odds of surving... he only needs 4/6 dice to come up 9's or better...

Which is why Id allow the resistance roll. Hes probably dead, but may live if fate is on his side. Why deny the player their roll, which is allowed by rules, when the odds are already something like 99% in gm favor. Just let them take it, avoid the argument, and if that 1% comes up find a way to explain it, be creative!
Fygg Nuuton
QUOTE (The White Dwarf)
be creative!

NEVER! *jumps out window*
littlesean
ALWAYS give them a roll.

I had a really tough physad in one of my games that was stealthing along slowly in Ruthenium, but what he hadn't realized was the wallpaper was specifically watermarked to reveal such things. Well he 'snuck' past a body guard and was lining up on the target when the bodyguard shot him with a hold out pistol, well if you call the Eichiro Hatamoto II a hold out. The bodyguard had more success than he did, so he rolled his body to soak the shot, all 13 dice. He failed to get more than one success. So he spent a point of karma to reroll his fails. And he failed. So he spent two points, then four points, then 8, then 16. He only had 34 in his pool (long running character) so he didn't have enough to try again. He was utterly shocked. He dropped with a deadly on the carpet of this hotel room. That is when the team kicked into overdrive and hauled his but out of there with a none too subtle entrance and exit. They did get him help in time, so he didn't die, but he decided to 'retire' the character and used his considerable bank account to "go into the light" and retire on some nice island.

So, let them roll, let them burn up their karma. Let the dice fall where they may, and above all, have fun.
The White Dwarf
Omg jump out the window.... I didnt see it coming! My precious plot, ruined by creativity! NOOOOOOO!!!
Fygg Nuuton
QUOTE (The White Dwarf @ Aug 3 2004, 01:21 AM)
Omg jump out the window.... I didnt see it coming!  My precious plot, ruined by creativity! NOOOOOOO!!!

Damn you, you tricked me into thinking. luckily i brought these cyanide capsules! silly.gif

anyway, there was no roll in my youth. about a year ago. not really so young but i didn't need the player saying they ate shotgun shells for breakfast. he made a new character and the player no longer ran into a group of 3 enemies with guns. it's fun to learn, 'cuz knowledge is power!

had my first gm not completely destroyed me when i did something dumb, i wouldn't be the intelligent.. civilized... human being...

well i would have wanted to play a drake with dual HMG's or something, but now that i think of that...

on topic, the complaint I have about myself is when i write a campaign, and the players are on track, i usually derail it with NPCs actions. therefore, as a writer, i am my own worst enemy biggrin.gif

EDIT: little sean, i like your style with the water seal. 34 karma pool? your team was made up of batman, indiana jones and james bond perhaps? smile.gif
Traks
Yes, always give them a chance is a good rule. Even if you must roll 24 to survive, it can be achieved. And player will be more satisfied even with logical outcome.
One PC rolled incredibly and survived when fast driving truck hit him in the middle of the street. Now, getting in way of truck was stupid idea in the first place, but he survived.

And one player is playing all the same character for about 5 times - always big and ugly troll. I gave up trying to persuade him to play another character, because even elf would behave like a big, ugly, brainless troll. Now when he hits tenth, party WILL be taken to laboratory where those trolls are cloned and he will be forced to play another character. It is, if party clears that laboratory and I hope they will take some heavy artillery with them.

Yes, last time he died when charged into restaurant and chopped up some yakuzas in yakuza - mafia war. Of course, without any precautions against security cameras. Now he said that his next character is always wearing a mask smile.gif
littlesean
Fygg- yes, the party was something like that. I was still fairly new to the group, but an experienced GM, and the current GM could no longer make it, so I took over the current campaign and characters. That was when one of them asked if they could buy karma, I asked how mauch cash he had to spend and let him buy it for 1000 each, as he didn't really have much cash. That was when this other guy peed in the karma pool and bought 100 karma. But I will take my lumps and go on. I came out with an escalating cost scale that went into effect the next game and they all razzed this guy about it for months. So I got to run a high stakes, high power game, which is normally not my style, but was fun.
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