Forgive me for this is long.

This is addressed primarily to Skeptical Clown for now.

I am posting this because I disagree with some of things you’ve been posting around here. I in no way represent the Admins or forum in any way shape or form.

Some of what you’ve had to say, and Crimson dude 2.0, has been very poignant, and I agree with it very much. This thread however is dedicated to what I disagree with. (Sorry if it seems negative.)

Just to clarify: I mentioned Crimsondude2.0. I have some post of yours I would like to reply to as well. Due to length they will be in a seperate post.

All corrections made to Skeptical Clowns grammar and spelling were my own. I chose not to highlight them, but for clarity's sake, know that any differences are my own, and made with the best intentions in mind.

I am having some trouble with one piece of text you posted, which was an excerpt from another post, which basically explained your view on the world of Shadowrun. Forgive me, but my Office 97 skills are weak. So until I have a good friend of mine tweak it so I can use it, it will have to wait, and these will have to do. (The remainders as it were.]

Okay, I want to throw my two cents in here. I don't post around here often, because honestly, not many posts around here suit my tastes for the game. I'm not a number cruncher; rather, I'm a writer and a student of history and philosophy. Let me explain why Shadowrun is my favorite RP game:

If I wished, I don't need to see a blasted single Shadowrunner for an entire campaign and the game is still durned fun.

You know what makes Tolkien's books so fun? For every move Frodo or Aragorn makes, there is 2-3 millenia of actions (if you wanna think third age only) of actions, traditions, politics, decisions, intruige, romance, and battle behind it, weighing on them. For every step through a ruins, there is a reason for them being there, a people that used them, and a cause for their falling into miasma. This was the magic of Tolkien: Before he wrote The Lord of the Rings, he spent 20 years writing the backstory of the world. Nothing was in specific unless it was important, but everything interconnected... And in the end, the story he chose to tell uses that information to craft the story he wanted.

But as much as it pains me to admit it, very few people are going to approach the singular effort that Tolkien accomplished in his years of life. Even the movies took a team of 3 to even visualize what he wrote, and that's only if you count the writers (just as much credit goes to Alan Howe and company, Howard Shore and company, and Richard Taylor and company). Plus, those people dedicated their lives for 7 years to the work. We play this game as a hobby, something to entertain ourselves with.

Enter the sourcebook. Compiled over the time of a couple years from conception to print (yes, I don't care what company it is, if any RP book is written in less than, say, a half a year from conception to publish, then something's off), you have there a guide. You have a ready-made wealthof information to use as you see fit. That's all a sourcebook is, really. One may focus on political intruige, while another focuses on landmarks. A third might talk about things that are yet to come (a certain Will comes to mind). This is what seperates a sourcebook from an adventure: In an adventure, the interpretation has been done for you -- save for the track-style shadowrun book, all the information on how the scenarios should go is in a printed format, and all the GM has to do is follow along. is it no wonder that they are the poorest selling books for any RPG?

So then there is the matter of detail. Again: How much do you want handed to you? Let's examine the situation: From Encyclopedia.com, the land mass of Europe alone is about 10,360,000 square kilometers, or 4,000,000 square miles. Yes, that's a million. And believe it or not, but Europe is the 6th smallest continent. So tell me: Would you like every location detailed in a 216 page book? What's more, would you want to torture someone by having them write it? And even more: Would you like to pidgeonhole any future writers for this game to double-check that book every time they wanted to write an adventure or sourcebook plot hook?

I want to expand on that last post, as it is the foundation of a lot of how role-playing books are written in the modern day. See, as RPG's get bigger and harder to make, the background checking alone is massive. Shadowrun is doubly handicapped, for it not only has to check itself, but it must also check the writings of an entirely seperate game, made by a different company with a different agenda. This isn't easy... And the more detail you get, the harder it becomes. It 's one (but not the only) reason why you rarely see pictures of some of the more common elements of the game -- if one creates the "definitive" Ares predator, or the "definitive" Richard Villers, or the "definitive" dragon, then all future writers and artists must stick to that. As there are very few complete and trustworthy databases of every reference made in a Shadowrun book, that is not a wise idea.

And to think: I haven't even touched the idea of good vs. evil and black and white in Shadowrun. I don't think I will -- it is late, and I need to get out of this quickly. I will say this, however: It should be noted that no government is static, and that includes governing bodys of megacorps. For instance, France's current world views and their seeming to have a social inferiority conplex can be traced to many factors, but it cannot be traced back past the 1800's, when the government was overthrown by the people and was remolded by a ton of different factors (Napoleon notwithstanding, although he had his part as well). If anything, I dislike early Shadowrun simply because things are too static and black and white -- I thoroughly enjoyed the events of Dunk's Will through Blood in the Boardroom and up to Corporate Download, and watching a megacorp tear itself apart and seeing what that did to the world. In the same vein, I'm salivating to learn everything I can about the Yucatan conflict, and see how the new CAS backbone is helping them, and watching Ghostwalker play Aztlan and the CAS like a fiddle. Is Ghostwalker evil? Who cares? Hell -- there are even quite a few things about Aztlan that I like, and they definitely ARE defined as the uber-villains of Shadowrun.

As I mentioned before, Shadowrun can be played without seeing a single Shadowrunner for ages. Why? well, for one, there is enough information out there to do it. To be honest, I still want to run a campaign populated by a group of humans trying to survive down in the deep research platform described in Target: Wastleands -- that one populated with vampires? Or pehraps a campaign of mercs in the desert wars, or the yucatan conflict.. Or heck, for a little exotic spice, I could go a bit of Cowboy bebop and have some people flitting around up on the zero-G casino or the Daedelus platform -- there's a whole nother world up there that's only been hinted at so far. However, if that is too far from the Shadowrunning concept for you, might I mention something else: Sometimes Corps don't want to do "denyable" things... Soemtimes they want the world to know what they did, or at least their enemies. Corporate hit-men are a common element to Shadowrun, albeit usually as Shadowrunner's opposition... Well, picture playing as the best of the best for a bit, and see what that does to one's game.

To digress a bit: I saw Ocean's Eleven (George Clooney version) a couple days ago for the first time. You know what was amazing? Due to the movie's glitzy, super-tech version of things, as well as the stuff I'd learned from Shadowrun, I knew a good chunk of how they were planning on doing things, as well as -how- to pull off that bank robbery in Shadowrun -- and how to stop it, where the critical failures were. Yet that made it all the more fun for me -- I got to enjoy the pacing, but I also got to put my mind through all these excerises of if such things would work, and how to tweak it both for victory and defeat. It really is cool, because the "good guys" in this case were probably more intellegent than 80% of all Shadowrunners I've ever read about.. and yet even they made mistakes...

Back on subject, just as a parting thought: Open up the Underworld Sourcebook sometime... And tell me if the contents are good or evil. Because Organized Crime is probably the hardest question to answer there. It is obviously a lifestyle of greed, but at the same time the Mafia, Yakuza, Triads, and (in Shadowrun) Seloupa rings all provide things to the common man that the government cannot, or will not. Not only that, but it is the epitome of a family business, and usually upholds values of honor and morality that are leap years beyond what you would find in the average man, let alone government officials. Yet many would consider them Evil... It is honestly the best expression of what makes Shadowrun great in the end: It is your game, to play with as you wish. The sourcebooks are there for all -- it is your job to use them, or not.. And by providing you that choice, as all RPG's provide you that choice, it sets itself apart from every other form of entertainment in the world.

Athenor

I pretty much agree with a lot of what Skeptical Clown wrote. My players don't want to know about behind the scenes machinations, and it doesn't help our games to include much at all. They become frozen by paranoia. If someone likes to play that way, fine. But with the brainpower I saved on working out a bunch of corporate plot and counterplotting that only marginally affects the run, I will be thinking of how to convey atmosphere in the game, and some interesting personalities for my players to interact with and other things that suit our style of play.

I haven't seen SoE, but from the sound of it, I don't think it's the kind of book that appeals to me. Give me one detail and I can hang an adventure on it. A broad overview generally doesn't inspire me. That's just the way my brain works, I think. I am so gonna run Richard Villiers Takes a Bath now, though.

And, well, I don't agree with SC on government. But with anti-authoritarian stuff, s/he is describing a style of game with a strong theme and specific atmosphere, and if that's the style that that group likes to play then there's nothing wrong with that at all. Maybe it's limited, or maybe it's just focussed. It's like calling Star Wars limited because it's not Dead Man Walking.


Oh, and LotR is not a great book because of the detailed background history, although that is cool. It's a great book because it has a strong spiritual dimension. IMO, of course.

But the background stuff helps the GM, for at least themselves, see what spawns the runs and can help them build a consistant world. The players need not know any of this unless they want to. The books help give them a starting point to use if they choose to build their world. Not everyone is uber creative or sneaky and it lets them see how the world works and many different ways that runners are used.

It also gives players ideas to use. Not evryone runner is former miltary, Lonestar or gutter punk who grew out of his small pond. They have to come from somewhere and run for some reason. And the hooks that give GMs idea for runs can give players ideas to motivate their characters development from just some slob into a carrer criminal.

I also don't see anyone forcing anyone to buy the new books or how they don't fit into the 'SR' theme, Surge withstanding. But I do see what they were trying to do with it.

Well it can all be settled very easily. Genre for one GM and another are different. It would be easy enough to look at who follows the Shadow Stories and who plays in the Shadows of the Shadow Stories.

There are people out there who I was once like, I followed the stories I played in line of the happenings, I set my Games around the world of the Multi corps the Politicians and police.

But I also Play the Runners who work the lower escilons of the world.

Each to his own. There are people out there who it is there idea of living the Sr Genre and there are those who or 1 time runners and they don't care.

I played a baddy once. I enjoyed it. It had nothing to do with Time line Genre.

I was a fugitive. I escaped from prison and that how my life started. Always running from the Law, running in the shadows of the shadow runners.

All in all it is your GM who makes the senario in genre.

You will find some Shadow types will have enough arsonal for Dragon hunting.
Try that in my campaign and see what happens. I have seen Troll Merc deficate in there pants by the mere precence of a Angry Dragon.

Genre look at what your world is like in a Game enviroment. Try not to relate to the real world..

Pls Excuse my Grammer and Spelling. I am not yet Old and Wise

GMing shadowrun is by far the hardest and most taxing game to run in most of the genre. And i have to agree that it doesn't help if people don't have a good grasp of the SR world and World events. I have a player who is a former Steel Wolves ganger from LA. After being displaced from her "hood", the recent events in YotC are very relevant to her character. Telling her PC that they are going to LA will inspire completely different images if she doesn't fully understand and feel what has and is happening in the SR world.

To help Players who don't keep up as well, i try to show side effects of major world events. yucatan Refugees, SURGE stories, Corp Stock that can change with events. These kind of things make the events seem more real. It is paramount having to pay more for Oil in the US because people are striking in venezuela.

Here's my two cents: Play Shadowrun, Have fun.

Paul you're way too serious.

Paul, I love it when people start sentence with WRONG. It's so witty and mature.

I think Ispahn72 is on to something. Its not what you know about the shadowrun world that makes you a good GM, It's how you describe the world to your players. Instead of a history lesson (which is boring for me) I enjoy hearing a trid report or accidently intercepting a radio news broadcast of recent events as i adjust my signal on my transciever. Keeping the game in character is fun for everyone.

I agree 100%, Buzzed. But, to some extent, the history has to be available to the players. I often did things like... "You're flipping through the channels, waiting for you fixer to call about those super cherry sweetez you asked him to get for you. You're in the middle of some show on channel 346 on the dissolution of the Danube Union when..."

That allows the player to ask if they want more info. If they don't, they don't have to, and yet they still have some idea that there was something called the Danube Union, so if it comes up two adventures down the road, they'll at least have some sort of reference point. And it immerses them in the game world more.

I'm 49 years old, and constantly remind myself that people of all ages post on dumpshock. I try not to criticize someone that still has a simple view of governments, politicians, and/or police. We ALL came from having simple views, and those views become more complex over time. There is nothing wrong with still having a simple view -- it is only a place to grow from.

I am enriched by observing my son's views of the world grow and mature. He first played Shadowrun at age 8 or 9, and he's now 15. His understanding of the real world has grown dramatically, and so has his ability to appreciate the intricacy that can be in Shadowrun organizations and NPCs.

Posts which enrich other people's understanding of Shadowrun and the real world are good. Posts which only criticize someone for still having a simple view are not beneficial. Paul, you have aspects of both, but it is presented almost exclusively as criticism.

Isn't this dangerously close to flaming? Starting a topic, simply so you can condemn another poster's comments and deride his world view? Skeptical isn't the only one around here that may have those thoughts. Dragging it out, in public, in its own topic, seems to be asking for trouble.

I especially liked the part about paying for dinner, travel and then worship trying to get you involved in a game, Paul, just so you can no. God, my world just might fall apart if my views don't agree with yours and you would so seriously *harrumph* my game.

If you want to address my opinions, do so in threads where it's a relevant discussion. There are already several of them. And if you have a problem that has to be directed to me specifically for some reason, send a PM. I'm not going to respond to this kind of trash.

The threads in question actually have little to do with your opinions, which is why I started this thread, which by the way isn't exclusively devoted to just you. Sorry if thats not flattering. I posted this as a way avoiding cluttering those threads. I don't expect you to reply, and I'm not much bothered if you don't. I presented my opinions, you've obviously read them-thats more than enough for me. That some people even agree, is more than I could ask for. That some disagree is to be expected.

I havent' read all of Paul's post, so I'll just throw a few things in;
1) SR is capable of many varied settings (SR Companion, Cyberpirates, Missions, Hooker Carving Crow Shamans), but it has a default setting. Seattle Shadowrunners.
2) Information can be Wrong, opinions... not so much.
3) A Voice Raised In Protest isn't a very informative title. Perhaps "Calling out Skeptical Clown" or... "Shadowrun and strong government" or something.

I have to agree with some of what Paul posted, and some of what Skeptical Clown posted. I think that both of you have some valid points, and seeing the discussion of what you disagree with helps crystalize alot of readers on the subject matter.

If you ever watch the news, whenever they have commentators, they always pick two with diametrically opposed viewpoints. This is because the more you disagree, the greater the difference in opinion and obesrvations you will offer to the viewers. The same is happening here.

I think I have to side a little more with Paul. I like a game that's varied and can have characters that may not actually be shadowrunners. In addition, my namesake shadowrunner has gotten to the point where he carefully follows the news of the world at large to track down lucrative 'jobs' or shadowruns.

In the games I run, I try to get the characters to find their own work. We don't have the 'typical' Johnson calling your fixer calling you with work. It happens from time to time, but I'm just as psyched when one of the players decides he has to steal the new prototype racecar from Mitsuzuki for his own use and the team goes along with it.

While my plot tends to be player driven, the larger issues of the world certainly factor into it. I appreciate having sourcebooks like SoNA & SoE because they give me a consistant background to plug my own imaginings into. Since I game online in IRC under many different GMs, having that consistant background is very necessary to take a character from one GM's game to another.

You know in another forum I mentioned this thread, actually in several hoping to spur conversation, but anyways in Bulldrek I mentioned something and DV8 asked a pretty good question which was basically "Well why didn't you say that initially?"

The reason is of course I didn't think of it until I had posted it, and by then had put quite a bit of time and thought into it. But Macavity summed up what I was thinking of when I posted this way better than I ever could have hoped to:

I really thought Year of the Comet, most of Dragons and Threats 2, along with parts of Shadows of North America were well written, good fiction. While not the best SSG had its moments, and SotA did really well bringing the settings to life for me.

I actually find it totally incredulous that Deus wouldn't be able to take out a few shadowrunners or resistance members if he really wanted to. The operative word, however, becomes "want." I always operated it by assuming that Deus allowed people to run around in his arcology as a way of learning. The conclusion of Brainscan, however, left a bad taste in my mouth, as Deus' plans just seemed so... mundane.

I like to think that Brainscan just showed one aspect of his plans, personally. It's stated that that is his plan, but I don't think it's stated that it is his entire plan.

~J

AI were invented for multitasking, afterall.

Crimsondude2.0: Thanks for taking the time to reply! I really enjoyed your reply, I unfortunately don't have a lot of time left this evening to make my own comments in depth, but I promise you Monday or Tuesday I surely will.

One offhand comment about Bug City/RA:S/Deus: Survival isn't always the point. Dying is sometimes in character, and fun.

Your play style as defined by how you deal with your character dying:

Really? I would have thought he could spawn clone "S-Ks" to run floors, while most of the funcitons are controled "autonomusly" using subproccessing mainfriams. I could see how all the little spawns would draw reasourses from the center down a notch, but only if finctioning all at once. Perhaps that's the way to attack Dues: attack every facet of focus at once from all directions using every unconventional menthod not printed. Then again I have neither RA:S or Brainscan.

It's never stated in canon that he can't do everything, but the fact that it takes longer than two minutes for the team in RA:S to be killed and the fact that it's presented as a place where it is possible to run, if briefly, leaves the conclusion that Deus is not truly omniscient within the arc inescapable.

~J

I imagine Deus tasked a lot of stuff to the sub-routines. Most of the drone's probably worked on their own. That's also part of why some floors were flooded, so he didn't have to pay attention there.

But, for runners, the simple way of avoiding stuff is simply don't set off alarms. The main problem I have with that is, once Deus IS aware of you, there's no way I can see him LOSING you. No matter how many alarms you safely bypass, eventually you draw his attention. At that point I think you're pretty much doomed.

True. But in that way it is quantitatively rather than qualitatively different from a normal run. As soon as you're detected, you move calmly but quickly to the exit, keeping in mind that the nearest exit may not be behind you.

~J

The window.

~J

Not if you fall faster than they fly

~J

If you can get out an Arc window without pursuit, you're pretty fortunate. If you can roll/slide down to ground level without meeting an interception, you are amazingly lucky. All it takes is a banded mage near a window to ruin your day even more.

Again, this isn't different from any normal run. What's different is how far you have to go and how many people and things are betwixt you and the exit

But yeah. Don't screw up at the start of the run, and don't screw up in the Arc unless you're within a hundred meters of the exit, preferably less.

~J