I'm wondering what great dragons out there remain undiscovered. They don't even register on Dragons of the Sixth World, but they could be out there. Possible canidates include:

Kananay
Actually this dragon was mentioned by a runner in Dragon's of the Sixth World. Now we know from the dragon's biology section that great dragons keep their eggs in their lairs where they can have regular contact with them. So if there are dragon eggs in Madagascar then there is a great dragon (likely feathered serpent) in Madagascar as well. In addition this dragon would have a relationship with the immortal elf Harlequinn. However I doubt it. Harlequinn's statements seem to indicate a ruse. My Guess? No dragons. The immortal elves of Azania are likely building an army (read heavenherds) in the privacy of Madagascar ( Hello Therans! ) away from prying eyes. That would certainly warrant Harlequinn's attention.

Aban
Reclusive in Earthdawn times this dragon would probably be even more reclusive now. Remember she was almost as big as Dunklezahn and a master of elemental magic. Perhaps "Mistweaver" has remade her swamp and is biding her time before making her presence felt.

White Lotus
An ancient female Eastern dragon that apparently didn't care for Earthroot. Now perhaps I'm simply being paranoid, but doesn't it seem odd that Lung doesn't control more of the Triads? After all the triads picked up magic pretty quickly. One might think they had help. But if Lung was solely responsible one might think he'd control more of them. Also there seems to be some rivalry between the Red Dragon Triad and the White Lotus Society triad.

Dragon(s) of Aztechnology
Is there a horror-corrupted great dragon controlling Aztechnology from behind the scenes? One source suggests an Eastern dragon perhaps trying to link Aztlan to the ring of fire. Another suggests a feathered serpent. ( which might make sense since feathered serpents are known praticioners of blood magic ). Interestingly horrors in Shadowrun seem to be working together toward a common goal. Ygrasthe even sacrificed himself so that more horrors could cross over. So maybe just maybe its BOTH a corrupted Eastern dragon and a corrupted Feathered serpent.

Yakut
"Are you absolutely fragging 100% positive there are no dragons involved?" You know when someone denies something too vehemently I get suspicious. Enter the Yakut. A giant awakened land with mysterious magic but seemingly no immortals in charge. Yeah, right. This would actually be the perfect place for a dragon to be running things behind the scenes like the before mentioned Aban.

Cambodia, Tibet, Manchuria
All possible locations for a great dragon. (given the location an Eastern great dragon like the before mentioned White Lotus ) All these places are extremely reclusive going so far as to give the corps the brush off. Could a dragon be in charge anywhere here. My guess? Tibet ...No. That is more likely awakened communing with ancient spirits. Cambodia, possible, but if so he's a vicious bugger. Manchuria likely. Since as far as I know most of the inhabitants migrated there to escape racism. They shouldn't have been able to tell the corps to leave without substantial help.

Outcast - Denairastas
Hmmmm. A dragon who was declared a renegade by the other dragons in Earthdawn time for attempting to produce his own private army of immortal human magicians. (As I understand it the best he came up with was long-lived humans ) What would such a dragon do (assuming he survived) upon the coming end of the fourth world. Perhaps he would make a secret order of human magicians dedicated to teaching and practicing magic from one generation to the next despite the incredibly low mana levels. Perhaps when magic returned he would become their new leader. A powerful magician capable of summoning both nature spirits and elementals? Perhaps this organization would become known as the Black Lodge. It would explain why they're so interested in messing with the Tirs.

Third Amazonia dragon
Three great dragons conquered Brazil right? Hualpa, sirrurg, and ?????. Dragons of the Sixth World said it was a feathered serpent and that while still much larger than your average feathered serpent was smaller tha Hualpa. Where is this dragon now?

Schneeflocke
I know only what I've read on the web. In the German language only sourcebook Chrom+Dioxin while talking about Switzerland it describes a light- colored !Feathered! western dragon that appeared in Geneva, sat there for five minutes and then flew off. It has not been seen since. It is rumored to be lairing in the Alpine Forbidden Zone.

Remember that some dragons from the 4th World were killed via 'down-cycle hunting'.

I shall note that best guess toward 3rd great in Amazonia is Arleesh, and the "corrupted" fetahered serpent in Aztechnology may not be. Maybe.

I'm rather more concerned about the gray-gold dragon up near Russia.

Didn't Arleesh wake up around 2049 or something? They sounded so positive I thought someone probably saw her "wake up". That definitely predates the takeover of Amazonia. I suspect that their is a fourth great feathered serpent. However I don't think its in Madagascar.

She wasn't spotted until 2049. She may well have woken up beforehand, somewhere out-of-the-way. Or it could be Mujaji.

Mujaji's in Africa. Amazonia=/= Africa.

Yes, and Lofwyr was in Germany and sat on the Council of Princes in Tir Tairngire, North America, in the scales.

It's just an idea. Certainly she has access to certain feline shapeshifters, and protects a jungle doman with the aid of tribal shamans.

is there 'room' in SR for... "generic" greats, for lack of a better term? dragons who are greats by virtue of stats and age (or by being tapped by the Wand of Becoming a GD, or however it works), but who lack the renown and power of the big-name greats?

Well...they're sorta rare. Greats that is. usually, only the exceptional ones make it.

I'm more thinking about possible greats that the writers of the source material may not have included in the Dragons of the Sixth World sourcebook because the dragons are too secretive. For example, a lot of people seem to think there is a great dragon either working for or running Aztechnology and the source material seems to hint at that.

But go ahead as GMs we can make whatever great dragons we want.

"My name Bertasor, I woke last Thursday"
"No I don't have a hoard, I kinda lost it."
"Well, you see the other greats think I have a gambling problem."
"What is this Las Vegas you speak of?"
"Toenail clippings for chips! Toenail clippings for chips!"

Well, SR1/2 and SR3 list was titled "some famous Great Dragons" or something similar, and DSW does not add many to that count. I guess it's like asking how many AA megacorporations exist, except that a mega can't make a living like a dragon can if staying under the radar. And in any case such creation shouldn't be able to challenge one of the Big in its league.

Las Vegas would be a great place for a dragon, great or not. Think of all the people who come there and lose there shirt. How many middle and even upper managment wage slaves might be willing to divulge a secret or two to settle a dedt? A dragon could gather wealth and secrets. Now that I think of it it would be a great place for adult dragons to try and gather wealth and power so you could have several lesser dracoforms running around the place.

The dragons that attacked Manaus & cleared the way for Amazonia were Hualpa, Sirrurg the Destroyer and Mujaji (not Arleesh). You can check that in a couple of ways; first (from memory) the DM's info in the back of Dragons/Sixth states that Mujaji was the third. Second, the adventure-book Bottled Demon (if you've got it) has Arleesh waking up in the latter half of 2049 & spending 2050 'slumming' in Seattle.

One of the powers of GDs: Twist Fate. The second usage allows a GD to spend on Karma Pool point to make a person reroll all it's successes. Ouch.

There's a point in DotSW where it says Mujaji has interests in South America, hence the idea that she was the third great feathered serpent (okay, we've got another great feathered serpent here, and we're looking for a great feathered serpent...hey! maybe they're one and the same!). Y'know how that line of thought starts up Syn.

So AnHi, are you saying you agree?

Nope. Too little information to go on. I'm just pointing out why people can make this assumption from the available rumors and innuendo in the book.

Grey-Gold?

Calozerca, DotSW.

As far as the hidden Great controlling Aztechnology, I always assumed it was Vestrivian, the Horror corrupted Great Eastern Dragon of Earthdawn.

Vestrivan was killed during the Barsaive War. Besides he was a western dragon.

How about another of the greats from the past, Earthroot.Apparently he' a Cathay drgaon , and pretty darn powerful, but no sign of him in SR.
In the Dof6thW, Celedyr defends his and Earthroot's choices concerning the Great Tree, which was a massive White tree underneath the ground. Earthroot and his ts'krang gaurded it. Now apparently Hualpa has it's ashes. So what happened to Earthroot?

Yeah, except that the people of ALOHA were going against what they were told to do by Naheka. They were bored and basically went rebel agaisnt the rebel, becuase once Naheka/Ryumyo got control of Hawai'i, he had them sit on their hands.

If anyone has ever read any Darksun novels, think Myron and Hamanu.

Interesting, but I'm not quite sold. The context of that conversation leads to me to believe that they are actually discussing Celedyr himself.

Do you think the dragon behind Aztechnology started up the DIVE (Draconic Information Exchange) to kill other dragons? you know weed them out so there wouldn't be so many dragons to contest against him.

And what about the dragon that they are all watching the one who escpaed from a prison and aparently betrayed dragon kind. Who is this dragon? Is he a great or becoming a great?

To me dragons are like basketball players you have your starters and Superstars (the greats) and then you have your average joe players (the adults) and then people who have potential and are sitting bench or in the college leauge (adolecents). The babies are like high school players you have your idea of who is going to make it but theres no garentee. The higher you go the smaller the talent pool gets and with people hunting them it does not bode well for the lifesylte of being a dragon.

BTW does anyone else who posts here feel like there in the nexus passing information like FastJack and the guys?

The Black Lodge is anti GD and anti IE, so they could be behind it, but I think IE work is more likely. They could be in league. The whole "strange bedfellows" and all that. The BL trying to get little clues leaking out in order to get the dragons and elves fighting it out again.

My money's still on Alachia/Hecate being the manipulator that set it up though.

That's why I think it would be cool if the Black Lodge was setting her up.

I think DIVE is one of the current vestiges of the Cult of the Great Hunter, and that it is pretty lame.

No, it very much is lame.

And if you honestly think there's no connection, or there isn't intended to be one, then you or Fanpro are fucking nuts. I mean, who are we kidding? This current writing pool has a nasty tendency to appropriate original material from other sources, and SOTA64 - the immediately previous release - was pretty blatant in taking ideas from Secret Societies of Barsaive. NOT using the CotGH for DIVE would be even more disappointing than that mental abortion of a book already is.

I mean, how fucked would that conversation be? "We already took the Songbirds whole cloth with name and all and put them in SOTA64. How about a group which may have been doing downtime dragon hunting for the last 5,000+ years be tied to CotGH and not just be a fanboy wankoff to Dumpshock? No... Uh... Okay. That makes perfect sense."

So how do you suggest the witers shake things up? The problem with SR sometimes it that it seems to have left its cyber punk roots behind for a more ED in the future feel to it. Same game now and not 2 differant like it was before. Even with technology on its side SR had to catch up with the modern day to switch to WiFi.

Which I could go on about for a while...but I won't. (Actually, I did last night.)

where is that rant i need to see it for nostagias sake

It was most probably verbal in nature.

Incidently, I disagree with your assessment about Shadowrun's direction. I think that the authors are continually trying to add more 'street' into the content. Of course the equation is slanted in Magic's favor at the moment, with the existance of Street Magic, but I'm sure that with the release of Arsenal and Augmentation, we will see things swing back into balance.

The release of the magic book first and the previous (2nd) editions lent a lot to the magic-centric feel. Look at the last few adventures though. Brainscan, On the run, and System Failure (SB/runs book). The game is what you make it. The effort lately has been to make it more street. They've actually said that, and done it with runs like On The Run.

Of course, in the end, the game is what you make of it. I know the games with my group have been more magic oriented lately, but I'm making an effort to change that by running more games, limiting the number of magically active characters, that sort of thing.

hmmm, but that was because of the transition to 4th ed.

I'm just commenting on the direction of SR4 feeling not as up to snuff as the 1st and 2nd ed. Probably thats when I feel in love with the game and it was way more cyber punky. Now i dare to say its cyber punky/amagetonish and the horror still have a shit long time to go before they arrive.

nm i guess i need to wait and see how 4th develops. I am excited about it dont get me wrong but the new look and feel doent mesh for some reason, at least not yet

Rememer also that the next book out is supposed to be Emergence, centered around the technomancers. And the tech books are still on the way. Like you said, we just haven't had the complete picture yet. But from the current direction it seems to be going, I'd say things are looking up.

Remember, according to Synner, Unwired was saved for one of the lst books because they didn't want to ruin any of the suprises for Emergence. Personally I would have prefered it right after Emergence, but it wouldn't suprise me if the peopel that would have been writing Unwired were the people writing Emergence (or at least some of them). And I know more than a few people that have refused to change editions until Arsenal is published. So apparently they have some clue of what they're doing.

Give it another 6 months, then you might be able to do a fair assessment.

Tell you what: When most Seattle shadowrunners are living in the YMCA like in the original Seattle sourcebook, then we'll talk.

Until then, SR4's about as street as my deskbound, white-collar ass.

They could live in Renraku's public housing with varrious ways to escape given GM permission. Does that beat the YMCA? LOL how funny would that be the YMCA STILL being a runners main hub of intell and social outlet with other runners.