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BIG BAD BEESTE
How about beer at GenCon UK next month?
Johnny the Bull
QUOTE ("Royal Succession website")
38. The Earl of Harewood


Woot! Look how close I am to succession baby! biggrin.gif
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (BIG BAD BEESTE @ Sep 9 2004, 10:52 AM)
How about beer at GenCon UK next month?

Has that got any better after it baiscally became a WotC event? 1997 was good, 1998 ok, 1999 i spent at a Battle tech tourney. it just seemed so... lacking....

side note: can anyone help locate 2 copies of this lovely book that i don't posses? including MJlbb and Sota 64 if out, cos i can't get them anywhere here in the UK.

And now back to our regular broadcast....
Synner
I'm going to pimp my regular FLGS Leisure Games in London since they're pretty good with FanPro material. They should have MrJLBB in later next week and SOTA64 as soon as its available.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Synner)
I'm going to pimp my regular FLGS Leisure Games in London since they're pretty good with FanPro material. They should have MrJLBB in later next week and SOTA64 as soon as its available.

Tryed them (someone else here mentioned them) but no, they're out of stock and so is their Supplier.

My Local shop Still hasn't got it in. (I've even told them not to bother i'll get it else where) Esdevian is their Supplier. So is it like Totally out of stock or what?
BIG BAD BEESTE
@ Shockwave_IIc
Wotcha there shockwave. Hmmm, let's see - is your local supplier Phoenix Comics up around by the Penny Whistle? (It's about the only game supplier in Northampton that I know of unless someone else has opened up a store there in the past few years) If so, I can see why you're having such a hard time in tracking down books. The best place I've found is Dungeaons & Starships an hour or so up the train tracks in Birmingham. (It's in the city centre upstairs floor of Andromeda Books BTW and its one of the best places to track down any gaming product.)

Alternatively you could try GenCon UK's trade hall because I've never been disappointed there - aside from not having enough money to buy what I see. And in answer to your question I'm really hoping it is going back to it's roots. After the last lackluster event in Easter 2003, the whole GenCon UK event thing was supposed to be dropped in favour of a continental relocation. From what I can gather the guys who ran all the RPG stuff for the GenCon organisers (a local bunch of home-grown enthusiasts) are the ones resurrecting this event and hopefully returning it to what it used to be. Feel free to contact me at my email address.

Anyhow, sorry to hijack this thread's topic - I'll return you to your regular posting. Have fun Terms.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (BIG BAD BEESTE)
@ Shockwave_IIc
Wotcha there shockwave. Hmmm, let's see - is your local supplier Phoenix Comics up around by the Penny Whistle?

Lol not only you know my local store you've got my local Pub as well!!

Thanks for the heads up in Birmingham. Well I'll be giving GENCON a miss i think, My money and Holiday went on Reading Fest and my birthday the weekend before. shall have start a saving a again.....

BIG BAD BEESTE
Yup, and if you're ever off to Oz I can tell you a load of good stores there and possibly their local watering holes too. It's one of those things I somehow end up doing whenever I'm visiting foriegn countries. Last stop was Fantask in Copenhagen, Denmark. Good store, nice people.

Shame you can't make GenCon UK though, but I know all too well the curse of financial deprivation. Hey, maybe we can arrange a meet up so you can tell me firsthand about what you did and didn't like in the UK Chapter (and the rest of SoE too). I'm in the locality and it isn't too hard to get to Northampton. Same goes for anyone else who's going to GenCon UK next month - I'd sure appreciate your feedback people.
lorg
Looks like SoE is sold out everywhere, even at the local stores here (sfbok.se).
L.D
Yeah, but they only ordered a couple of 'em. Still good though. biggrin.gif
Drain Brain
It appears that Orcs Nest doesn't have it yet either (that's the one in London near the Palace Theatre). I haven't been up there recently, but their web based mail order doesn't list it yet. Which is unusual since they're normally pretty quick.

What was the official UK release date?
lorg
LD; yeah but concidering they told me SR was dead a few years ago I am always amazed when they continue to order books for dead games.

DB; Orcs nest is still around? Wow, long time since I visited that. Amazed it is still around.
Synner
Well, I can confirm that Orc's Nest had SoE in store about a month ago (a friend of mine picked it up there while visiting London) and Leisure Games certainly had it too (several continental friends mail ordered and received theirs from LG). I've put out some feelers to a couple of contacts at the big Brit game distributors and apparently SoE is selling out at at least one - whether this is because they underordered (doubtful given there were plenty of preorders) or it really is flying off the shelves (which makes me one seriously happy EuroSBer)... now the question is, will they restock?

MrJLBB has only just hit the stores in the US and SOTA64 will take a little longer so those should start showing up in Brit stores in a couple of weeks.
snowRaven
QUOTE (lorg)
Looks like SoE is sold out everywhere, even at the local stores here (sfbok.se).

I managed to get one of their last copies.

I remember asking for Dot6W there though - they said they get info on every book released months beforehand, and they didn't havev a record of that one two weeks after it's US release...
L.D
That's becuase their middle man is a bit slow. They got SoE at least a month after it was in the stores in Copenhagen and two weeks before getting SoE they had no idea when they would get it or even that FanPro had released it.
Drain Brain
Yeah, Orks Nest is still there, and it's the only place I ever go to get books. Not out of any loyalty (although it's a cool shop) but because it's the only place I know of!

If anyone would like to direct me toward any other places, a PM with an address would be nice!

DB
blinkin
I love the UK section as a whole, but there was one piece of information that I was looking for that I couldn't find. When was the Registration Act for magicians passed?
White Knight
QUOTE (Drain Brain)
Yeah, Orks Nest is still there, and it's the only place I ever go to get books.  Not out of any loyalty (although it's a cool shop) but because it's the only place I know of!

If anyone would like to direct me toward any other places, a PM with an address would be nice!

DB

Apparently Playing Games is better than Orc's Nest but I haven't been there myself. From another website: "Go north up Tottenham Court Road from the underground station, take the first right and follow along until you are opposite the British Museum. The shop is about the third shop on the right down one of the side streets opposite the museum." The RPGs are downstairs.

Multimap

Also, there's always Leisure Games itself in North London.
Synner
QUOTE (blinkin)
I love the UK section as a whole, but there was one piece of information that I was looking for that I couldn't find. When was the Registration Act for magicians passed?

Glad you liked. We didn't really get the space to go into the minutae but according to the old OOP London sb, which we built on, the Magical Practitioners Registration Bill was passed in 2027.
BIG BAD BEESTE
Yup - magical registration kind of got bundled together with all the other reforms when The Lord Protector's Office was officially set up. One of the ways the LPO keeps the New Druidic Movement updated too.
Canid13
Seems most people liked SoE in general and the UK chapter. So I'm probably alone when I raise my hand to vote for "it stinks".

An explaination I think is in order. Firstly, this isn't a sourcebook in it's own right. It's an update on a sourcebook which is now OOP. I have no idea what's in the London book, and unless I can find a kind soul who has a copy I can borrow I ain't gonna.

I'll admit that this isn't the first time I've had this problem, SoNA was just as 'useful' to me as a GM and both times I've felt cheated. Least SoNA was new places so I could simply extrapolate from today to the sparse info in that book. This isn't as simple, since it's so far from the real UK to be unrealistic.

This brings me on to my second problem with this chapter. You say it was written by a native Briton? Sorry, I don't see it. I read this book, and it didn't feel like Blighty to me, it felt like a poor Hollywood imitation - things are almost right but to a native it's blatantly obvious.

While the Pendragon subplot and the druids are a nice touch, since I've no idea where the country was I've no way of using these in my games, there's just not enough detail here to work with.

I did like the ley lines section, as that linked in with stuff I'd already seen in previous sourcebooks, but seeing as the druids are completely new to me I don't see how I can use them, unless my players run across a ley line on another job.

After getting this at Origins, I stayed up all night reading the UK section and can't bring myself to reading anything else since the UK chapter had such an effect.

On another note, for those looking for Shadowrun books, try Wayland's Forge in Birmingham. They seem to get stuff regularly and I know they've MrJ's LBB.
Synner
QUOTE (Canid13)
Seems most people liked SoE in general and the UK chapter. So I'm probably alone when I raise my hand to vote for "it stinks".


Criticism is a good thing and as one of the authors of said chapter I'd like to hear more about what you actually disliked or found wrong, especially since things several people have pointed out they disliked have actually been things which we (the current authors) 'inherited' from Mr. Gascoigne and Sargent's London. However there's a few points I'd like to make right off the bat...

QUOTE
An explaination I think is in order. Firstly, this isn't a sourcebook in it's own right. It's an update on a sourcebook which is now OOP. I have no idea what's in the London book, and unless I can find a kind soul who has a copy I can borrow I ain't gonna.

I'd like to disagree with you here. I believe that we a good job of covering all the basics needed to understand the UK in 2064. Did we do it in enough detail as we would have liked? No. We, like every other author in this and other books, were constrained by the format. Did we make the best possible use of the space we did have to introduce a playable setting? I'd like to think so. Other people seem to agree. But mileage inevitably varies.

That said, there is one more point I'd like to make. While IMHO the UK chapter is by no means simply an update of the London sb, it is also constrained by SR canon continuity. Much as we would have liked we did not have the option of "rebooting" the UK setting and starting from scratch - thereby hanging long-time players who have actually used that setting out to dry. The writers of the TNO and Germany chapters also faced the same limitations. In practice what this meant is that we had to live with the published material, OOP or not.

However I think the point you're actually referencing here is something several people have brought up and which has little to do with the actual UK chapter but rather with the Shadows of format. FanPro has decided to go the route of regional sourcebooks like SoNA, SoE and the forthcoming Shadows of Asia rather than single country sourcebooks because quite simply they appear to sell better. What this entails is that each country gets a max. page count of 15 whereas something like London, Germany and TNO had 160 pages. The format is something the developer decides and if Rob Boyle is sticking with it, its because it seems to work (and SoE sales info from my retail sources in the UK seem to confirm this since the book is mostly sold out).

QUOTE
I'll admit that this isn't the first time I've had this problem, SoNA was just as 'useful' to me as a GM and both times I've felt cheated. Least SoNA was new places so I could simply extrapolate from today to the sparse info in that book. This isn't as simple, since it's so far from the real UK to be unrealistic.

Several people have complained about the shortness and brevity of the material, but even so the UK gets one of the bigger chapters in SoE but as I pointed out above this doesn't appear to be so much a problem of content but rather of format.

As one of the authors (and one who hopes to continue to write for SR) I'd honestly like to know given the space constraints what you would have liked to see more of. I've had some feedback in this and other threads as well as by email (some people want more detailed history, others don't want history at all, some want to know the name of London pubs, others wanted more on the NDM).

Personally I think we did a pretty good job of covering a lot of basics. But basics they are.

QUOTE
This brings me on to my second problem with this chapter. You say it was written by a native Briton? Sorry, I don't see it. I read this book, and it didn't feel like Blighty to me, it felt like a poor Hollywood imitation - things are almost right but to a native it's blatantly obvious.

Well, not only are the two current writers Brits (well, half-Brit in my case) but the original London writers (Carl Sargent and Marc Gascoigne) were too...

Looking back over this thread I can see quite a few people picked up on "real life" UK references we drew from the "Early-90s/Poll Tax-y feel" to the "Yes, Prime Minister"-style bureaucracy through to the "the British govt. (any British govt.) reaction to a problem". The thing to remember is this was never meant be current day Blighty in 50 year's time. The SR timeline split from the real world back in 1999.

As some people have mentioned above UK in SoE does try to find some plausible and realistic grounding for some of the previously introduced canon material, but it was a balancing act. Dor instance S&G had introduced a populist authoritarian Thatcherian-style regime (and which made a certain sense back in 1991, when the Thatcher years were still fresh in people's memories) which had been in power for over 25 years and couldn't be simply ignored. So instead of sweeping it under the rug or simply maintain the status quo, we decided to fast-forwarded to the point where it begins to fall apart and show how its beginning to happen in what we believe is a very British way - and one which presents an interesting source of dynamic tension to the setting.

QUOTE
While the Pendragon subplot and the druids are a nice touch, since I've no idea where the country was I've no way of using these in my games, there's just not enough detail here to work with.

If you have any doubts about the history/timeline feel free to field your questions, I and the other SoE authors will be more than happy to try to answer them. I find it ironic that some of the other negative reviewes have critiqued SoE for the excessive space reserved to history.

Nonetheless the material on the LPO's rise and the NDM should have been self-explanatory. Whether its detailed enough for you is another issue, but personally I don't believe we could have done more in the limited space we had (believe me, we tried).

QUOTE
I did like the ley lines section, as that linked in with stuff I'd already seen in previous sourcebooks, but seeing as the druids are completely new to me I don't see how I can use them, unless my players run across a ley line on another job.

What there was on Druids (in the UK, TNO, French and introductory chapters) was not intended to be stand alone. The Shadows of books are intended to introduce information on the setting not expand the rule set. There's more information on roleplaying the Druids and other European magic traditions in SOTA64 but that was the plan all along.

QUOTE
After getting this at Origins, I stayed up all night reading the UK section and can't bring myself to reading anything else since the UK chapter had such an effect.

I'm sorry to say that I think when you do get round to it you'll find that the other chapters suffer from the same problem you have with the UK. They introduce the basics and paint the big picture leaving it up to individual GMs to fiddle with the details as much as they want. This is both an editorial decision and a format constraint.

However one aspect of SoE which defers slightly from SoNA is that there are several threads running through the whole book and certain elements are integrated organically into the whole. Reading the chapter-specific history sections after reading the general history in the introduction should give you a clearer picture of how events come together. Likewise reading the Eurohistory and NEEC section gives some further context into the ramifications of Britain turning its back on the EU and Awakened Europe section adds a little more info on the various varieties of Druids.
Canid13
Thanks for your comments Synner, it's nice to know someone with some clout is listening.

Firstly, for me the history is what I wanted. North American wasn't such a problem as the basic rulebook covers some of that with some detail, but as I do not have the london sourcebook (or anything before the 3rd Edition rulebook) I was hoping to find some history on what had happened in my home nation, and what things were like. I'll admit there is that info in there, but it's very concise and doesn't have any of the details I'd have liked to see in there.

I think this is definately a format issue. While I like the 'Shadows of' format, I think something should be done to show those who've only come to Shadowrun recently that you still give a damn. BattleTech, Warhammer and a whole host of other games have this problem - everyone (including editors, writers and business bods) assumes that everyone who plays the game got in from the very first book and so has access to what came before in terms of fluff. As I'm a relative newbie to Shadowrun, I don't have that info.

As to how to solve this problem, I'm not really sure. The format itself is nice, but it does have the drawback that it only updates previously published information and doesn't back fill any gaps people might have very well. Increasing the page size is an option, but that'll increase the size and cost of the book so not really a viable one. Perhaps reprinting the OOP book so that people can get that info in the first place is another option, but again it's perhaps not cost effective. Releasing the previous book in PDF format isn't an option, because those who've paid for it before will feel cheated. I guess it's just a matter of accepting that I'll never get the info I need to run games anywhere (New Seattle also has this same problem, though thankfully I've read that).

In the case of this chapter, decreasing the Pendragon stuff, since some people didn't like it way, would have left more space for a more thorough history for those of us who don't have it. But then it'd be a 3rd edition update of the previous edition book (which I'd gladly pay for) and not an update on the previous book's story threads etc (which I got and feel cheated and decieved for paying for).

As for the setting itself, I appreciate that the timeline diverged before today, and I'm cool with that. I don't know if it's the original material which is being built upon which is what gives this an unrealistic feel, but the way the public acted and what they condoned just doesn't seem realistic. I can't be more specific right now, I'd need to re-read the chapter - but my gut was telling me that this was hollywood britain while I read it, just can't put my finger on why.
Synner
Well, at least part of your problem will be solved soon enough. FanPro is currently in negotiations to get OOP books on sale as PDFs (this removes the drawback you mention, but I doubt you'll find the old-timers would be pissed to see OOP books put up for free).

FYI - Most of the authors of SoE were recruited right here on Dumpshock when it started of as an amateur project over 4 years ago. It's come a long and bumpy way, but we managed to do what we set out to do: have the Sixth World Europe written by Europeans. Anyway, you'll find many of the authors have been posting on these threads and will be happy to answer any questions or reply to any constructive critiques. All of us would have liked at least a couple more pages to detail our ideas but SoE came in significantly bigger than SoNA as is.

Regarding the history issue, if you trawl the other threads on this sub-forum you'll find several people would have prefered even less of it. Though nobody is ever going to be completely happy, I'm okay with the compromise we settled on. Not too much but just enough to get the highlights and understand the general direction the countries went. I'll be happy to answer any questions raised or blurry bits concering the rather succinct British history in the book.

Personally I think the Pendragon, the Underground, Lyoness and the Ley War added a much need dynamic to the UK setting but then again I'm biased. As it stood in London, I've always believed the setting was excessively oppressive and static. Opinions so far have been divided down the middle on the subject - not only here but on other boards. One thing I have found however is that Europeans seem to have liked it more than Americans. I will note that the situation will continue to develop in upcoming books.

And in answer to your final point - the London history explains the easy rise of the Green Party and its "institutionalization" as the government party as a result of the mishandling of the Eco-disasters that created the Toxic Zones by the previous cabinet, public opinion's swing to strong pro-conservationist and the subtle and not-so-subtle support of the rising New Druidic Movement. When the Lord Protector's shadow regime gradually took over the powerful men and captains of industry that are connected to the NDM (it has many non-magical members and acts like a Masonic old boys network) just helped perpetuate the situation. It took a while but now the wool is being pulled from the nation's eyes by the Pendragon and the Underground (which may or may not be connected). In all likelihood if Thatcher and subsequent Tory leaders had had such major events rallying support behind their banner they would have stayed in power considerably longer than they did. The Sixth World is a dystopia and with the corps, governments and other power players walking hand in hand such situations could last even longer and become even worse - at least that's the logic we applied to what Mr. Gascoigne and Sargent introduced in London.
Chasgul III
For those in desperation: there used to be a shop called Gameskeeper on the Cowley Road in Oxford. They do mail-order, but I lost their number - if you look them up they may still exist. They also stock a load of second-hand books, if your looking for OOP material.

Hope that helps
BIG BAD BEESTE
Hi there Canid13, sorry that you felt "cheated" by the UK chapter. I assume you wanted a lot more detailed information on the whys and wherefores of how the Sixth World's UK state of affairs came to be. I expect you wanted to read something meaty so that you could set up and run a UK campaign straight of the pages. Unfortunately, as Synner and others have said it all boiled down to space restrictions and continuity of previously published materiel.

OK, so just to let you know, I'm the other author of this chapter. I am a Brit and have lived here in blighty for thirty years. Now whilst I have an inside view on the British lifestyle and our history, I admit that I haven't seen most of what our nation has to offer. But then again, although this is a small island its got a heck load of history and stuff associated with it. In brief, my intent was to bring over a feel of what makes the British tick - the atmosphere of a current Sixth World resident in that land, because it was intended to set that atmosphere across to the GM and their players (many of whom are not from the UK and have never seen it outside of a Hollywood cliche).

Therefore, the actual hard factual meat of locations and history was written as the writer would speak it to a newcomer. Most of whom do not want to be swamped with a heavy lesson of history and governments and monarchys because they will simply be in the background as compared to what events are "relevant" to running a game in the UK. Yes, the focus was for the Here and Now rather than the past. synner and myself tried to include the references as much as we could to support the main themes, but without going off on a tangent and exploring another subject altogether (even though it might have been something that we really wanted to explain in full).

However, what's done is done. You've mentioned that it was an update to an OOP sourcebook and thereby "missing" essential information. True, to an extent, on both accounts. It is an update because its been 15 years since Carl & Marc wrote the original and something had to happen in that time period. But we also included new stuff wherever we could. This was our attempt to temper the canon and to hopefully bring the UK to a stage where it could be changed into what people like yourself (IE: the consumer) want to see, buy, and play.

True again that it missed some really meaty information that we really wanted to include. Alas, for wordcount limitations. But yet again, this shouldn't prevent the chapter from being ueseful. It still brings across the essential skeleton of what the UK is and how it works along with several distinct characteristics. Hopefully, we can find space to expand upon this framework in the future products.

So keep watching and if you do have any questions please feel free to post here. We'll do our best to reply. Honest.
Canid13
Hi Beeste. Firstly, please don't get me wrong. I'm glad someone actually bothered to do a Europe sourcebook at all, since the Old World is usually the last place companies tend to look :o)

To be honest, I never expected to be able to pick up SoE and run stuff immediately. But I did expect to get some basic info which I could weave my story around. Okay, should Pendragon ever get to Seattle, he could possibly hire my players and perhaps if they went to the UK or something. That's all fine and dandy.

But what I'm really lacking is things like how, if at all, does life differ from Seattle. What's the sentiment on the streets and in the corp enclaves. What's the local beat bobby equipped with, and what backup does he have and the like. Will DocWagon or CrashCart contracts be honoured. How to the gangs differ, if at all. You know, the basic stuff which will have a massive and direct impact on a runner, even if he or she isn't on a job at the moment.

I can extrapolate some of this from New Seattle, and I guess add my own flair to the stuff, but it'd be nice to know how things work for real as opposed to "here's my best guess guys".

History is useful in filling in the gaps, since you can look at what's happened and generate a reasonable facsimile of what effect they'll have on people and things, and some new plot threads are always welcome (well, almost always).

Guess I'll just have to get used (again) to being in the minority.
Demonseed Elite
There's only so many words, though, and that level of detail takes a lot of words. Books like the old London Sourcebook, you just won't see much of anymore. They didn't sell well enough to rationalize their development costs. So, really, for that level of depth, you're mostly going to see it limited to a basic and global "shadowrunning lifestyle" or core default locations like Seattle. From there, gamemasters who want to shift the focus onto new areas are going to have to do some of the work themselves.

It's definitely not ideal, but unfortunately you can't really write every book how you'd really love to.
Synner
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
It's definitely not ideal, but unfortunately you can't really write every book how you'd really love to.

Amen to that.

Just FYI Canid13 - a project is underway to put some of the material produced but unpublished for SoE online. The final version should even allow fans and players to submit material that builds on SoE's framework and develops the those missing details. Note however is this currently a long term project and all the material will be unofficial.
Sepherim
Besides, explaining how people feel, think and do is hard at best. That's something you need to "experiment" to know, mostly. I tried to do it in the Spanish chapter, and could only offer a quick view of things (not sure it made it in the final version, I haven't got my copy and there were too many versions to remember now which was in which wink.gif ).
Canid13
I appreciate your responces Beest and Synner. Hopefully I'll be able to get some use out of the book eventually. If not, well least I still get to say I've every 3rd edition book.
BIG BAD BEESTE
No worries Canid13, I hear your plea there. Whilst I did try to put over the bits you really wanted to know (IE: how things work and the UK perspective upon them) most of that got cut. Things like law and order, our attitude to cash, medicine/surgery, and the like. You'll find there is still the coverage of the day-to-day things like gangs, underworld organisations and the UK shadowrunning lifestyle at the end of the first section "The People" though. Not much, but I think it does get acorss the main differences between the UK and NA regions. As for DocWagon & Crashcart contracts - Nope! They don't exist in the UK. Well, not yet at any rate - there's some stuff in there about that too.

SirBedevere
QUOTE
Just FYI Canid13 - a project is underway to put some of the material produced but unpublished for SoE online. The final version should even allow fans and players to submit material that builds on SoE's framework and develops the those missing details. Note however is this currently a long term project and all the material will be unofficial.


Oh thank you Synner! biggrin.gif I'm really looking forward to that.
DrJest
An excellent idea. It kind of reminds me of the old TORG Inifiniverse concept, where the universe was partly shaped by the actions of players around the world.

I don't have SoE yet, but I'm one of these old-timers who has the original OOP sourcebooks for most of this stuff (well, okay, I don't have Germany, so sue me smile.gif ). I liked the original London sourcebook, and applauded FASA's good sense in turning it over to a couple of British gamers to write - God alone knows what we'd have had if the Yanks had done it themselves... nyahnyah.gif

For those who took issue with the role of the aristocracy in the SR version of Britain, I think I can shed a little light. The hereditary aristos are fragging loaded, filthy stinking rich. I spent a few quality weekends with one many years ago (no names and no pack drill, cos her dad'd frigging kill me), and you would not believe how wealthy some of them are. And as that old adage states, money equals power. Now remember that most of those old noble families still think they should be running things (well.. actually, I'm a monarchist myself, but we'll slide over that for now wink.gif ), and the so-called "old boy network" is a working system that is frighteningly efficient.

Fast forward 50 years. Fragged off by decades of kowtowing to "lesser mortals", is it completely surprising that the aristocracy have decided to flex their influence muscles?
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