If this isn't a plot hook or grounds for modifying/creating canon, I dunno what is.
Full Version: Well, this completely changes things.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5623857/?GT1=4529
If this isn't a plot hook or grounds for modifying/creating canon, I dunno what is.
If this isn't a plot hook or grounds for modifying/creating canon, I dunno what is.
Had a feeling someone had beaten me to it. 
If nothing else it'd explain why the elves took over the island first chance they got...
I'm still sticking with the volcanic Mediterranean island theory of Atlantis.
Bah. As we all know, Atlantis is lost somewhere in the Pegasus galaxy.
-Siege
-Siege
South Jersey. 
This is beginning to veer wildly off-topic. Please keep it related to Shadowrun.
| QUOTE (Pistons) |
| This is beginning to veer wildly off-topic. Please keep it related to Shadowrun. |
Finding out that Atlantis was, in fact, situated in New Jersey would have radical Shadowrun implications.
To begin with, there'd be a cross-country stampede of heavily armed psychopaths ("shadowrunners") from Seattle to New Jersey.
The NAN would probably protest the countless thousands of slaughtered border guards, military units, and bartenders who looked cross-eyed at the wrong runners.
A bunch of snooty runners would get on the Matrix and sneer at all the unnecessary killing, trumpeting about how they managed to sneak past the border guards and non-lethally deal with the others.
The really professional runners wouldn't say a thing, because that would be beneath them (figuratively and literally: they probably took a semi-ballistic flight across country.)
How the UCAS responded to the NAN protests is debateable. Likely, it'd declare it had no knowledge of the activities of those criminals, which it mostly certainly did not hire or have any contact with. However, if UCAS authorities could separate out the runners from the average inhabitant of New Jersey, it would certainly extradite any such criminal to NAN authorities as part of its "Good Neighbor" diplomatic policies.
The NAN would request clarification about what the UCAS meant by "any such criminal": runners who just slaughtered their way across NAN or inhabitants of New Jersey.
The issue would be rendered moot when central police, military, and judicial databases in the assorted NAN member-states burned down in mysterious circumstances and the handful of captured runners disappeared from their jail cells. NAN diplomats would no longer be able to name individuals for extradition.
And then, of course, the real fun would begin when illegal archeological digs in New Jersey began turning up Atlantean artifacts.
There's really no credible evidence to even suggest a place called Atlantis, or even just a place that closely matched the description of Atlantis, ever existed. There are so many crackpot theories out there, that it's easy enough to just pick one you like and run with it.
"Atlantis" is already a fairly well-established crossover from Earthdawn. They simply haven't gone into it very much.
That's not to say that you can't still "just pick [a place] you like and run with it though." Lots of run potential in a team sent to exotic locations to investigate rumors or crackpot theories on the subject.
That's not to say that you can't still "just pick [a place] you like and run with it though." Lots of run potential in a team sent to exotic locations to investigate rumors or crackpot theories on the subject.
| QUOTE (Skeptical Clown) |
| There's really no credible evidence to even suggest a place called Atlantis, or even just a place that closely matched the description of Atlantis, ever existed. |
Since we're speaking of Atlantis in Shadowrun, yes, there is an Atlantis. See: Earthdawn.
I know there was an Atlantis in Earthdawn, but Shadowrun and Earthdawn do not perfectly overlap, nor is there anything official saying Shadowrun has to obey the history established in ED. You can cheerfully toss that book out, and it doesn't affect your individual game at all. I doubt Shadowrun will ever nail down Atlantis with any kind of specific information.
Yes, in exactly the same way that you can cheerfully toss out Man and Machine, Portfolio of a Dragon, and both Seattle and New Seattle.
~J
~J
See, those are actually Shadowrun products. Of course, you don't actually need those books either, but the difference between a Shadowrun product and an Earthdawn product is pretty clear. Shadowrun existed just fine before Earthdawn ever existed, so it's hardly necessary to go back and check your Earthdawn references just to run a Shadowrun game.
No, it's not necessary at all, and certainly takes a back seat to direct Shadowrun references, but it does mean that, even if it never shows up, Atlantis existed in the Shadowrun world (as they are the same).
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Skeptical Clown @ Aug 9 2004, 06:09 PM) |
| I know there was an Atlantis in Earthdawn, but Shadowrun and Earthdawn do not perfectly overlap, |
Except for the numerous characters - dragons, elves and horrors - that show up in both settings.
In fact, wasn't there a series of ED and SR novels that traced the life of one female elf and the horror that tormented her from ED to SR?
Oh yeah, although the only thing in English for it is Worlds without End.
Don
Don
| QUOTE (shadd4d) |
| Oh yeah, although the only thing in English for it is Worlds without End. Don |
That's it, "Worlds Without End," centering on the IE "Aina." The two proposed ED books didn't get published in English due to waning ED popularity.
it's worth pointing out, however, that there's been an official break between SR and ED--that is, stuff that happens in one system/game world won't necessarily be reflected in the other. granted, something as big as the existence/location of Atlantis (isn't that Thera, in ED?) probably won't differ.
Wasn't it already established that Thera was in the easter Med- I'm vaguely remembering a snippet about the Atlantean Foundation running an underwater dig and strip operation on a sunken Island out there?
sure ireland fits plato's geographically description wonderfully if he omits the simple fact that Atlantis is sunk and Ireland isn't. maybe the IE chose Ireland because it reminded them of Atlantis but it just doesn't fit, you must acquit.
Thera is a real island. It's in the Aegean sea.
Anyway, my point was simply that while there are obviously crossovers between Shadowrun and Earthdawn, those crossovers aren't exactly official, and they're mostly obscure or subtle. Were you to ignore something like the Earthdawn version of Atlantis, it really doesn't detract from Shadowrun, nor does it significantly deviate from the canon Shadowrun world, as Shadowrun most likely will never make any specific pinpoints of where Atlantis is or what it was like.
Anyway, my point was simply that while there are obviously crossovers between Shadowrun and Earthdawn, those crossovers aren't exactly official, and they're mostly obscure or subtle. Were you to ignore something like the Earthdawn version of Atlantis, it really doesn't detract from Shadowrun, nor does it significantly deviate from the canon Shadowrun world, as Shadowrun most likely will never make any specific pinpoints of where Atlantis is or what it was like.
| QUOTE (MSNBC News) |
| Erlingsson believes the idea that Atlantis sank came from the fate of Dogger Bank, an isolated shoal in the North Sea, about 60 miles (100 kilometers) off the northeastern coast of England, which sank after being hit by a huge flood wave around 6,100 B.C. |
| QUOTE (Skeptical Clown @ Aug 10 2004, 03:14 AM) |
| Anyway, my point was simply that while there are obviously crossovers between Shadowrun and Earthdawn, those crossovers aren't exactly official, and they're mostly obscure or subtle. |
With "Worlds Without End", the "Dragons of the Sixth World SB," thorn-sprouting elves, and drakes they're not "mostly" obscure and subtle anymore.
| QUOTE |
| Were you to ignore something like the Earthdawn version of Atlantis, it really doesn't detract from Shadowrun, nor does it significantly deviate from the canon Shadowrun world |
That I can agree with. History rarely matters to games with short-term focus, like many SR games.
Its hard to take any of these new "discoveries" serious. There was a story on AP about a month or two ago that claimed that they found atlantis off the Coast of Spain...
Yeah, but Worlds Without End was a pretty bad book anyway, and the Earthdawn "prequels" were never printed in English, and thus don't count 
Further, Immortal Elves don't in and of themselves necessitate Earthdawn. Harlequin was printed long before Earthdawn existed, and it was implied the Great Dragons were ancient as well. And while DotSW may make it obvious that there are links, none of them are overtly stated.
Further, Immortal Elves don't in and of themselves necessitate Earthdawn. Harlequin was printed long before Earthdawn existed, and it was implied the Great Dragons were ancient as well. And while DotSW may make it obvious that there are links, none of them are overtly stated.
None of that changes the fact that Earthdawn and SR are by canon linked.
You can feel free to change it however you wish in your game.
You can feel free to change it however you wish in your game.
Does it? Where is the proof? Where does it say that in Shadowrun? By canon, I don't just mean there's a guy who exists in both settings, and is the same in both. I mean something in Shadowrun that says pretty openly and specifically refers to Earthdawn. Or at the very least, says that there was definitely a previous cycle of magic, that things happened there, and that those things have repercussions today.
I don't think there are any. I'm not against Earthdawn links; I just don't think there's anything in the game canon that forces you to interpret things that way. I suppose WWE might; I haven't read it in years, and don't plan on it.
I don't think there are any. I'm not against Earthdawn links; I just don't think there's anything in the game canon that forces you to interpret things that way. I suppose WWE might; I haven't read it in years, and don't plan on it.
Read Harlequin's speach to the PC's in the original Harlequin adventure. Harlequin explicitly tells the PC's there has been more than one cycle of magic and in the first humanity faught and died and in the last one humanity ran and hid when the horrors came. Harlequin introduced Earthdawn's continuity in his very first appearance.
The names of almost all great dragons are carryovers from Earthdawn, as are the numerous links provided in Worlds Without Ends such as Aina and Ysgarthe. Developers have even stated thigs like the fact that obsidimen and skrang died out permanently between ED and SR because they couldn't survive the low mana levels.
The names of almost all great dragons are carryovers from Earthdawn, as are the numerous links provided in Worlds Without Ends such as Aina and Ysgarthe. Developers have even stated thigs like the fact that obsidimen and skrang died out permanently between ED and SR because they couldn't survive the low mana levels.
Great! That's right, I forgot about that. But that's not an Earthdawn reference, because Harlequin existed before Earthdawn did. I'm not being contrarian simply for the fun of it; I'm merely wondering what exactly has been said in canon literature. By canon, I refer exclusively to printed Shadowrun material that has been released in North America. And while there's a good deal of evidence in printed material that there were previous magical ages, I don't believe there is much specifically printed that forces you to adhere to any Earthdawn continuities (although there may not be compelling reason NOT to), nor specifically are there any Shadowrun references that specifically require you to adhere to an Earthdawn Atlantis.
Um, the Atlantean Scociety, a corp run by a few immortal elves waitinging for the return fo thera (atlantis) if memory serves, and if they knew it was ireland then it'd be pretty pointless eh?
And like I said, Harlequin was an introduction to earthdawn, it started it all out, introduced the links.
Also Like I said, the novel Worlds Without Ends detailed numerous links, it was printed in english.
EDIT: Besides, Real world and SR world continuity became divergant about 1990. Real world events have no influence on SR events any longer, they are separate timelines.
And like I said, Harlequin was an introduction to earthdawn, it started it all out, introduced the links.
Also Like I said, the novel Worlds Without Ends detailed numerous links, it was printed in english.
EDIT: Besides, Real world and SR world continuity became divergant about 1990. Real world events have no influence on SR events any longer, they are separate timelines.
I though FP said somewhere that Shadowrun and Earthdawn where no longer linked. Someone else owns the rights to ED iirc.
They just won't be adding any new ED links to keep up changes between the two worlds. The existing links still exist and are valid.
| QUOTE (Skeptical Clown @ Aug 10 2004, 04:06 PM) |
| By canon, I don't just mean there's a guy who exists in both settings, and is the same in both. |
That is canon. The characters exist in canon works in both settings. They perform actions that are mentioned in both settings.
An explicit "Earthdawn = Shadowrun" adds nothing in comparison. It's just an empty statement.
SR3 mentions Thera explicitly in the "And So It Came To Pass..." chapter at the beginning of the book with mention of both Atlantis and the Atlantean Foundation. But like most things in the game they try and keep it open-ended for future development.
The same section even gives the exact date that the Fourth World came to an end -- July 22, 3543 B.C.
etc.
The same section even gives the exact date that the Fourth World came to an end -- July 22, 3543 B.C.
etc.
Yes, Harlequin exists in SR, and he exists in ED. What he does is both settings is canon. But is the Earthdawn material canon for Shadowrun? That's the question. I don't think so. If Earthdawn didn't exist, and you had no reference to it at all, the Shadowrun material still works fine. Unless there's something published that explicitly says so, or unless, I suppose, the line developer says so, then I don't think Earthdawn counts as Shadowrun canon. A good reference, certainly, but not of the same central canon as "Novatech exists, and is run by Richard Villiers." So are the references jumping points for someone who wants to follow that path, or specifically and officially canon? I seem to recall Bloodwood maybe was mentioned in WWE, but does that mean that ED material on Bloodwood is canon, or does it just mean that there was a place called Bloodwood?
Moving more specifically to the Atlantean Foundation: what is known about them, really? To my recollection, they're a society that is allegedly seeking anything related to Atlantis, and allegedly run by an immortal elf. They appear to be investigating "things" all over the globe, from Central America to the Baltic Sea. I don't recall there being anything that suggested they knew where Atlantis was.
Edit: OK, if it's mentioned in the SR3 core book I guess it's canon I don't have my book on me, what does it say specifically about Atlantis?
Moving more specifically to the Atlantean Foundation: what is known about them, really? To my recollection, they're a society that is allegedly seeking anything related to Atlantis, and allegedly run by an immortal elf. They appear to be investigating "things" all over the globe, from Central America to the Baltic Sea. I don't recall there being anything that suggested they knew where Atlantis was.
Edit: OK, if it's mentioned in the SR3 core book I guess it's canon
I don't have my book on me, what does it say specifically about Atlantis?
Earthdawn material is essential for the distant history of Shadowrun. Just because very few games deal with anything over 5000 years old doesn't mean that the material is not a part of the setting.
The material in Cyberpirates or any of many other source books won't come into play when your PCs are busy getting into barfights in Seattle. Does that mean they aren't canon? No, it means they aren't immediately relevant.
The material in Cyberpirates or any of many other source books won't come into play when your PCs are busy getting into barfights in Seattle. Does that mean they aren't canon? No, it means they aren't immediately relevant.
Canon doesn't have to do with relevance; it's just what's official. Your GM's npcs are very important to the game, but they're probably not canon. I'm merely asking, what is canon to Shadowrun? As far as I know, officially, it's just Shadowrun material, released in North America. There are certainly things in Shadowrun that reference Earthdawn material, and those references themselves are canon. But if the context for the reference is only to be found in Earthdawn, is that context canon? Or is it an open link?
Earthdawn is certainly NOT essential to Shadowrun, however, since Shadowrun existed before Earthdawn, and continued to exist after Earthdawn went its own way. As a game, it works just fine as a self-contained unit. Not that I'm surprised someone with an Earthdawn name doesn't like that to be pointed out
Earthdawn is certainly NOT essential to Shadowrun, however, since Shadowrun existed before Earthdawn, and continued to exist after Earthdawn went its own way. As a game, it works just fine as a self-contained unit. Not that I'm surprised someone with an Earthdawn name doesn't like that to be pointed out
It works as a self-contained game until you ask about the distant history. The BBB also works as a self-contained game until you decide you want more options. The entirity of Earthdiawn is a rarely relevant bit of material, but there are plenty of references to a previous age of magic and Earthdawn is that most previous age of magic.
You can play Shadowrun without it, but you can also play Shadowrun without Matrix, MitS, M&M, Rigger 3, and any of the location books.
You can play Shadowrun without it, but you can also play Shadowrun without Matrix, MitS, M&M, Rigger 3, and any of the location books.
But again, that's my point. Those are shadowrun books. Earthdawn books are Earthdawn books. Shadowrun books are obviously canon. I don't think Earthdawn books are specifically canon. It's a nit-picking distinction, but an important one. What my question essentially boils down to is not whether you can, or should, use Earthdawn material, or whether it's good or bad, or whether there are references to Earthdawn. It's whether Earthdawn material is SPECIFICALLY canon. It's really more technical than subjective.
Shadowrun sourcebooks have Earthdawn references, both direct and indirect. The link between the two is canonical in that respect. However, Shadowrun treats Earthdawn as a mysterious archaeological period of time that is only occasionally having its secrets discovered and pieced together. Other than the great dragons, the immortal elves, a few powerful spirits, and precious few others, no one has any direct knowledge of the Fourth World... and those that do certainly aren't sharing any of it for whatever reasons they may have.
To be honest, I'm surprised we don't see the Press, archaeological communities, scholars, and others constantly bombarding the known great dragons with questions about their origins, where they came from, and what the world was like when they were first here.
But my tangent aside, Earthdawn and Shadowrun are linked. Earthdawn sourcebooks are still Earthdawn sourcebooks, and Shadowrun sourcebooks are still Shadowrun sourcebooks. Neither has direct influence over the other. But aspects from one can be seen in the other, and vice versa.
Thera/Atlantis's existance is one of those aspects.
To be honest, I'm surprised we don't see the Press, archaeological communities, scholars, and others constantly bombarding the known great dragons with questions about their origins, where they came from, and what the world was like when they were first here.
But my tangent aside, Earthdawn and Shadowrun are linked. Earthdawn sourcebooks are still Earthdawn sourcebooks, and Shadowrun sourcebooks are still Shadowrun sourcebooks. Neither has direct influence over the other. But aspects from one can be seen in the other, and vice versa.
Thera/Atlantis's existance is one of those aspects.
Like most grand mega-conspiracies, it usually doesn't have much impact on the average runner's daily life.
Now, if your player are familiar with both worlds, you can run a campaign with hints and tidbits dropped in to tease and lure them.
Otherwise, it's a lot of material to wade through that may or may not be of interest to some players.
I find it makes for a fun read, but not so much in the middle of a game.
-Siege
Now, if your player are familiar with both worlds, you can run a campaign with hints and tidbits dropped in to tease and lure them.
Otherwise, it's a lot of material to wade through that may or may not be of interest to some players.
I find it makes for a fun read, but not so much in the middle of a game.
-Siege
Really, I think the only people who can decide if Earthdawn material is SR cannon or not is the writers. Going on a hunch though, I'd say that were they to write about a dragon's memoirs, or the Atlantean foundation's achealogical digs, I would be willing to be all my SR books that they wouldn't contain anything that out and out contradicts Earthdawn as it was when FASA kinda disapparated. I would also think most of what they would write would connect to Earthdawn. I also don't think they're going to ever say its officially cannon, near as I can tell the rule systems are incompatible as they are. But I would think the setting books would be as close to cannon as they can be without being officially recognized. Apocrypha, perhaps?
If we decide to refer to the ED books as apocrypha, I think we should found the Earthdawn Orthodox runner and the oh, ummm....First Fanpro runner?
If we decide to refer to the ED books as apocrypha, I think we should found the Earthdawn Orthodox runner and the oh, ummm....First Fanpro runner?
The Church of Latter-Day Prime Runners.
~J
~J
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