Considering that they don't come with any of the gear that comes with medkits, and the context for which the entire implant revolves, it's obvious it's intended to work from within on its own. If not, it wouldn't be able to revive you as it clearly does. If not, it wouldn't be able to slow your accumulation of Overdeadly Damage as it clearly does.

Additionally, one of the functions of a medkit is that it can produce an antidote on demand. Are we to believe that a Nano-Biomonitor (not just the Guardian Angel which is a brand name) does this, then ejects a syringe that the user then has to inject back into himself?

*shrug* i'm just pointing out the rules. yes, i'm aware they don't make sense--but that's never stopped an SR rule before.

personally, i'd go with the sane ruling, and say GAs do all the work themselves. however, if you insist on running around and shit while it's working (remember, it takes base 5 combat rounds just to heal an L), it will be less effective--poor or terrible condition modifiers.

That's how it should be. "Terrible Conditions" is completely appropriate if its functioning in the middle of a fight, and "Bad Conditions" is any place outside of a hospital or other sterile environment.

Well, thanks for replying before I posted more, I wanted to see why rather than try to tell everyone what I thought. Incedently, heres why I asked.

It seems rather imbalancing that it would autoheal its user. This is what prompted me to question the fact. Whatever SR is, 90% of the time its very well balanced relative to similar things within it self.

So, I read the Guardian Angel entry on p. 91 M&M. It states the following:
-The nano versions are upgrades to the biomonitor listed on p. 25-6 M&M
-Its "programmed with specific trauma control functions"
-It functions as a Rating 6 medkit with a -2 tn mod
-It attempts to revive you if you fall unconcious
-It attempts to stabilize you in you reach deadly

Ok, so you get a rating 6 medkit with a -2 tn mod, that is specifically listed with 2 additional trauma control functions. That is what it says. The obvious assumption is that it tries to biotech you... but Im confident this is just that, an assumption.

I continued reading and checked the Biomonitor entry on p.25-6 M&M, and read:
-It acts as biotech skill 5 to "identify health threats and determine a course of action"
-This function is specifically mentioned in simili, "Like a medkit..."

Ok, so this one is only a rating 5 medkit with no tn mod, and is specifically listed as having no additionl operations other than those "like a medkit".

The obvious next step was to read up on medkits, p136-8 M&M, where:
-"They consist of basic medical sensors, reference programs, and general drugs"
-"[They] allow a user to treat a single patient at a time"
-If used by a character without biotech, they provide the skill at their rating
-If used by a character with biotech, they provide complementary dice at their rating
-"In either case, medkits do not function independantly; they require a living user to follow instructions and undertake tasks"

My Conclusions:
-A regular medkit doesnt operate on its own.
-A character cannot use a regular medkit on themselves, as they require a user and a patient to function
-The Biomonitor cyberware works like a regular medkit, but is rating 5; its only viable patient is the character posessing the implant. It still requires another person as the "user" to apply the first aid.
-The Guardian Angel works like Biomonitor, which in turn works like a regular medkit. Its a rating 6 medkit, with a -2tn mod, and its only viable patient is the character possessing the implant.
-The Guardian Angel is specifically mentioned as being able to operate autonomysly for two operations: reviving if unconcious, and stablizing at deadly. This is unlike all previously mentioned entries for all medkits.

Its my belief that the "specific trauma control functions" stated in the general text are limited to the 2 actions described. Theyre the only given exception to the entire medkit rules, and are specifically referenced twice as such.

Furthermore, if you presume this one works automatically, then all the other implanted medkit 'wares would likewise need that capability. Otherwise this one would be subject to special treatment, simply because you assume so, for theres nothing stating that and a lot stating otherwise.

As to making sense, its not that unrealisitc to have the nano-versions capable of limited trauma ability (remember these are tiny nanodrones already constantly monitoring the body, having to take even limited actions is their limit). Also, its not that unrealistic for you to be unable to use a medkit on yourself (if you get shot, its rather hard to do things like apply pressure and such yourself; even in Ronin while DeNiro got the bullet out he still needed 2 other people to assist him in doing so and finish stitching).

The only catch is this: what would a person assisting an implanted medkit, with no other tools, really do to help? Push a button? Make a selection on a menu? Watch flashing lights? They could do things like apply pressure and such, but without any tools or materials they would be useless. My assumption here is that the characters posessino these implants would need to carry around the same "medical materials" that all medkits use. Basically a smaller first aid kit. This would allow those helping them to have things like a small splint, some thread, a syringe, and bandages on hand. Which solves the problem. Making antidotes could be likewise handled, the nano section specifically mentions how the implants only carry small amounts of supplies in gel form; perhaps the drones could make an antidote but youd have to add the base components on the spot.

What do you all think?

i think it's too complex to be the default assumption. if you were required to carry around a medkit in order for the GA to work, it would state that in the description. my stance here is somewhat divided, i suppose: i agree with you, that if you're following the letter of the rules, you have to do the gruntwork of the first aid yourself. what that gruntwork might be, and what materials you'd use to perform it, i don't know. the details are left up to the GMs who follow the letter of the rules, in this case.

it seems more likely that the writers intended the GA to actually perform the first aid itself, via nanites (clotting opened blood vessels, releasing painkillers, etc.), simply because of the way the GA is described; if it can stabilize and revive you with no outside help, it doesn't seem like a huge leap to think it can also perform first aid on you with no outside help.

Id rather not use the nuyen cost or essence cost to justify anything in this game. Seriously, if we went that route Id have to burn every equipment listing published and write my own. In its defense tho, it is cutting edge tech thats not mass marketed and availabile in only specialized areas.

The other nano-medkit is a good comparison. Its 1 essence and 100,000 nuyen base. Comparing the price after street index isnt exactly fair either, the base list is only 130,000. If you want to figure out end cost to a character youd have to add in the negotiations and surrounding situation of getting it, and theres no way to do that without specific game details.

My point was that, if you make the assumption for that implanted medkit, you sorta need to make the same assumption for all implanted medkits. Because theyre listed as being exactly the same, with the exact same mechanics, and most of the same descriptions and functions (except as specified above). I mean in the Game Effects forr them it even says "theyre advanced versions of the basic biomonitor" and references the subsytems under that entry in the cyber section. Doesnt get much more cut n paste than that.

And I do think it would be a balance killer... Free Biotech skill (from any of these sources) is already a huge boon. Consider, any team with 1 magician casting Heal/Treat and 1 biotech device can heal from a Serious wound all the way to a Light within minutes. The *whole team* could get shot up to 9 boxes during a run, and escape to the safehouse. Then they could all biotech each other (for no karma or skill investment, just the paltry medkit/supply costs) down to the previous damage level, Moderate, at 3 boxes. Then the mage could heal folks, getting them down into light.

If a Sam could lower his damage level every few minutes while on a run, it would be really freaking hard to kill him. So much so that any well built sam would be almost invincible. You can get around the essence cost with a small cyberlimb, and gain more space for other things while youre at it.

Glad somebody mentioned the savior...the savior is the nano-medkit, not the GA

I'd completely agree that nowhere does it specifically say that the GA will do first aid on you, but the points Doc Funk just made totally hold true as well. For the large essence and nuyen cost, as well as SI and availability, I'd expect it to do quite a lot. I mean it's pretty nice as it is, all those extra functions and -2 tn and all the rest of it, but it doesn't seem like quite enough to me.

As you say, the fact that it's nanotech can easily be used to explain why it is able to actually heal you while others biomonitors can't.

Incidentally, what's everyone's stance on the CrashCart version? If you say neither of them can do any first aid (as in healing).. then that one is pretty much no better than the standard biomonitor, neh? Okay it's rating 5, but other than that, as listed, it does nothing more than the standard biomonitor, and yet it costs and assload more in essence and nuyen. That, again, leads me to assume that it has some extra function, if only for game balance.

Well, its legal, and better. The fact that (at the time the book was put out) it was cutting edge is the only real explaination for the cost. As for the essence, they all include the 0.7 essence hive which is the explaination of that. See my above post for the rest.

As an aside, other Military things like the Ares Assualt Rifle are all SI 4 if memory serves. Im thinking that, as a military device, the GA has SI 4. Thats probably why thats there, along with the availaiblity listing.

you can perform other tasks. the GA will take a Bad or Terrible condition modifier to its first aid roll, but you can do it.

the advantages of the GA over the Savior are many. a GA is constantly monitoring and updating you on your condition--been poisoned? the GA will let you know instantly, and will probably be able to tell you what toxin, while you're busy dealing with the paranormal that poisoned you. a GA is always with you--no worries about leaving it in the car, or dropping it during a firefight. the Savior only provides a -1 TN to first aid tests. the Savior doesn't automatically attempt to stabilize you if you pass D damage, nor does it reduce your overflow damage by half, nor does it automatically attempt to revive you if you fall unconscious.

So if you opt for the CrashCart Med-Alert over the standard Biomonitor, the ONLY advantage you get is +1 to the Biotech skill of the biomonitor?

That's in exchange for 134,500Y, 0.4 essence, -1 signature, and losing one of the maximum of two free-floating nanosystems you can have? This is assuming you take all the trimmings for your standard biomonitor.

Seems like kinda a bum deal to me. On the whole I'd say SR sticks to game balance fairly doggedly, too much so if you ask me, so those kinda figures definately persuade me that the GA can do more.

Cochise, a medkit is stated as requiring a "user" and a "patient". I didnt make that up. And I quoted it (hence the quotation marks) straight out of the relevent, notated, section. Thats why [-"In either case, medkits do not function independantly; they require a living user to follow instructions and undertake tasks"] was written. Its not the only relvent part, go read the section. Its there. That addresses a lot of your points.

As far as trying to draw a line between medkits and biomonitors and nano-medkits and whatever else, there isnt one. They all refer to the same rules section, all the way back to the medkit section. The basic medkit gear item gives biotech 3, the cyber biomonitor gives biotech 5, the savior 6, the crash cart 6, and the guardian angel 6. They all use the same rules, with appropriate tn mods, and to the appropriate people (ie, if the cyber is implanted in me, it only gives people biotech skill to use on me). This is also clearly stated in the relevent text.

My only assumption was: since it requires some other individual to apply the skill to the person having the implants, it would make sense they would need the materials on hand to do so; and it was based on logic alone. The rules state everything else I wrote. The nanites themselves could have limited supplies for its 2 specific functions, the nanite section specifically states they carry limited materials in gel form.

Go read those parts again in M&M, and post again. Its all there in black and white.

Peoples argument for it working automatically are:
-the essence cost (which again is inflated because it includes a 0.7 essence hive; and can mostly be avoided with a small, lower essence cyberlimb containing the implant)
-the nuyen cost (which as other items have proved isnt always a good indicator or marker; coupled with the fact this is supposed to be cutting edge military tech).
-its nanoware, its automatically uber and can do everything, even tho the only rules referenced by the item itself state otherwise

Aside from the costs of obtaining this, and the fact that its nanoware and thus seems subject to a totally different level of capability ... what reason would there be? None that I can see, thus I reiterate that it works the way I stated.

You left out the last argument:
- That the Savior Advanced Medkit is worded exactly the same way in the Games Rules section: "The Savior is a Rating 6 medkit and follows all the normal rules for medkits (see p. 136). It also provides a -1 target number modifier for Biotech (First Aid) and Body Tests to stabilize."

But, according to you, and despite the associated fluff text, that doesn't mean jack. It still doesn't work on its own even though the fluff text explicitly states otherwise. The only difference here is that it goes into a little more detail to explain what it does after it diagonoses the problem, whereas the Nano-Biomonitors don't bother to do so because they assume their readers are intelligent enough to assume that's the entire point in a 520,000 nuyen 1.2 Essence implant.

Dwarf if I didn't know any better I'd SWEAR you were one of my players =)

Cochise, Nice Post.

Ok, here's one thing y'all missed. It's possible to implant a Savior medkit, or any other medkit, into a cyberlimb at 4x base cost-- so for the Savior, it'd cost all of 6000 . Now, what would be the difference between implanting that, and implanting the hideously-expensive GA medkit? There has to be some advantage to the GA.

Now, one way of getting around this is to say that the Savior also needs a biomonitor routed to it, and DNI-adapted to work "by thought". The GA does not, and has an additional -1TN.

Funk:

okay, both the "GA requires an external user" premise and the "GA performs first aid on its own" premise require assumptions that are not spelled out in the rules. the question is, which assumption is simpler.

the "GA requires an external user" premise assumes that the implantee, or someone, is carrying around medical supplies. it assumes that the GA is capable of performing enough first-aid to keep someone from dying, but is incapable of performing enough first-aid to get someone back into the fight (despite the fact that keeping someone from dying is much harder). it assumes that people are willing to spend more money and essence on a medkit than they would for a cyberlimb with several points of Strength and Quickness increase.

the "GA performs first aid on its own" premise assumes that nanites can clot blood.

It had nothing to do with what you said, but how you say it...I'll leave it at that.

[How did that happen?]

OK, i haven't read the rules in M&M simply because you've said you've post/quoted the rules yourself.[EDIT] Thats i lie, cos i did[/EDIT]

I think that the autonomous function of the GA is implict, otherwise whats the point? Obviously the writers intended for the thing to work this way. They might not understand the mechanisms involved (not being scientists), but the concept is there.

In reality the nanotech descriptions in M&M really sell this technology short. I'm not an expert on nanotech by any means, but anyone with a basic understanding of molecular biology should see the tremendous potential this device would have.

In reality every nanite would have an "active site" like any enzyme. All a nanohive would need is the ability to slightly modify the shape of that "active site" and the possibilities would be endless! What the nanohive/biomonitor system would do is monitor the user's condition and regulate the complex array of circulateing nanite enzymes in response to stimuli. If the user was poisoned (for example) it would detect the toxin, identify it, determine the dose and modify an appropriate percentage of the nanites to bind and cleave the toxin. Probably it would modify a percentage to bind and block the toxin's cellular receptor as well. Same for pain, inflammation, whatever responce was required.

As far as "supplies" go a nano-medkit that works like this could actually do a lot with very little. The body already produces all the nessisary materials (protiens, minerals, etc). All the user would really need to supply is freash nanites or the materials the hive needs to produce them.

As others have stated what would a second person do? Applying pressure or bandanges to a wound would be moot- a modified nanite could bind whatever receptors were nessisary to cause the appropriate vasoconstriction and stop bleeding. In fact they could be targeted to the relevant area of the body because they would have to have chemotaxic abilites and be able to recognize tissue specific cell-surface markers.

I could go on, but the point is that system could do most things all by its self. The idea that a second person is needed just as implied as the idea that it is autonomous.

Thought this was an interesting thread so I would chip in my 2 cents worth:

1st have a look at the "fluff text" as we like to call it. From the description these things are "Nano Biomonitor" systems. Not nano med kits or anything like that. Everything in the fluff texts describes them as Biomonitors, not some kind of crazy healing device. It says they can like normal biomonitors but more effective and they can analyse "body chemisty and hormone levels and generally opperate on a finer scale". It never mentions there ability to heal the user automatically in anyway. All it states that if there is a medical problem "the unit automatically triggers a warning display". Thats it, it displays a warning just like a biomonitor it never mentions any kind of taking action.

Likewise in the game effects section at the top it describes the system as a combination of a "biomonitor - actually a free floating nanoware system - and the diagnosis processor."

Now this is the important point that I think is the problem. The device that includes the med-kit effect as it where, is this "diagnosis processor" which if you read the standard biomonitor section is an expert computer that diagnose problems and sugest treatment, just like the devices used in external med-kits. So it functions just like the expert computer in a med-kit would allowing you to diagnose problems and tells you how to treat them, but does not, and can not do the treatment for you. All the nanites are doing in the system is replacing the standard biomonitor system as a way that the diagnostic computer gets its information not providing any kind of wonderful healing system in any way.

The Guardian Angel does have the additional abilities, ie will stabalise you if dieing, doubles overflow time, revives you if unconcous. And persumambly these are reflected in the diagnosis processor having additional abilities, i.e to function very similar to a trauma patch or stim patch. BUt it doesn't say anywhere that it can do anything other than that.

Saying that because it acts like a medkit does not mean it automatically heals you. A medkit is just a combination of sensors, reference programs, general use drugs, and an expert processor to make recomendations for the user. It will tell you things like "apply pressure to the wound at the following point", "start CPR as follows", or "having sealed the wound apply a splint to the leg as follows". Someone still has to do all these things and unfortunelty a nanite system floating arroun dth ebody would be totaly incapable of doing these things, thats why it outputs the data to someother place to allow other people (or even the victim himself in bad situations) to perform the first aid on the victim.

There is a device that effectively automatically heals you and thats the nanosymbiotes, they allow you to heal far faster than normal and that is nanites at work doing healing and the like, but speading up repairs and the like is one thing, performing first aid is something different and so far we don't have nanoware that can do that (probably because its very difficult to get nanites capable of apply splints, tornicats, field dressings and the like). Remember it takes an ENTIRE free floating nanite system (Carcerand-Plus) just to carry a SINGLE dose of a chemical ready for release. So its unlikely that they could carry arround with them all the different types of drugs that are required to perfrom first aid (contained in a medi-kit) and still being able to perform functions such as sealing wounds, splinting bones and the like...

As regards people saying "Oh but it costs so much it must be something great and all powerful". It doesn't really. Take the base price and subtract the cost of a Nanite Hive from it and the base costs and essence are just:

0.3 essense 20,000 cost for Crashcart
and 0.5 essense 50,000 for guardian angel.

Having a single dose of Carcerand-Plus free floating in you costs 30,000 on its own so its actually quite reasonable in terms of the usual cost of nanites

As for essense cost a Biomonitor usual takes up 0.3 essence and the diagnoistic processor takes up 0.2. So its just the limitation of the nanites them selves (having to have a hive to make them viable) that ups the price and when you start including that with the other nano-ware systems all of them are just as costly.

I'm not surprised some people have misrepresented these things as nanoware systems do seem to cost a hell of a lot and you would think you would get more bang for your buck out of them, but then again it does give you a medkit thats effectively hooked into you at all times and that could end up saving your life some day anyway so its nothing to sneeze at.

And again, by your arguments, the Savior Advanced Medkit doesn't heal you either. The Game Rules are virtually identical to those of the Nano-Biomonitors; they work as a medkit with a -1 target number modifier on First Aid Tests.

So if the nearly identical game effects of the Guardian Angel doesn't provide healing, then obviously those nearly identical game effects of the Savior Advanced Medkit don't either.

Thats right the Savior Advanced Medkit does not provide healing on its own. It does however provide 6 additional dice and a -1 target number to anyone attempting first aid with such a device at hand to give them accuate diagnostic data and to AID in treatment. But it still can not function on its own without a pair of hands to perform essential functions that are the basis of first aid. The nanites can provide some assistance for sure in both the diagnositic and the healing process but they can not do everything.

Ooh, sorry, but you're wrong again. The fluff text makes it abundantly clear that the nanites do indeed perform the work. In fact, the only supplies you buy with the Savior Advanced Medkit are additional nanites for when they run out (which is a moot point with the Guardian Angel because of the included Nanite Hive).

And let's just throw away common sense and assume you guys are right. The Guardian Angel is just a diagnostics tool. Tell me this, then: How much do the supplies cost to take advantage of the not-really-a-medkit-even-though-it-is-a-medkit Guardian Angel? Why don't they list any supplies cost along with it like they do traditional medkits or even the Savior Advanced Medkit (even though the latter is, again, just spare nanites)?

Yes I know the nanites do do some of the work. From the fluff text they "rejoin damaged tissue, stop blood loss and minimize the onset of shock" however thats not the complete package of first aid mearly a small part of it in which the nanites help out with.

So, in other words, you're saying that the only thing it provides is a -1 target number modifier on First Aid tests over a normal medkit. And, just like the Guardian Angel, it provides no actual materials in which to follow any instructions it provides, because the only supplies it comes with are the nanites. Which, by the way, actually makes it worse than a normal medkit since you now have to take the +4 No Medkit Available modifier.

Oy. To each their own.

Is it just me or does an additional 6 dice and a -1 modifier seem really excessive if the Savior is just a bio-monitor system?

I have to agree with funk here, unlike a normal medkit which provides medical supplies this one does nothing of the sort. Hell, it's INSIDE the patient and doesn't even provide any feedback or have any way to communicate with the owner unless he buys the obtional unnecessary screen.

Yep, agreed Bit.


and as cpcarrot just quoted in his post, the nanites in a Saviour kit do some of the first aid work themselves. So you roll your Biotech (First Aid) skill with an extra +6 dice and -1tn as a result. That's an extra 3 dice and -1tn over a normal medkit, which contains no nanites but is otherwise approximately the same in what it can do, i.e. they both contain a diagonsis system, drugs, etc.

As was quoted, the nanites in a Saviour kit "rejoin damaged tissue, stop blood loss, and minimize the onset of shock". That sounds pretty much like first aid to me, and if the nanites (and it's talking specifically about the nanites in that quote) in a Saviour kit can do that, I don't see why those in a GA can't do it as well.

I meant it's excessive if it is just a bio-monitor and has no other rea function like others on this board have said.

Grr, perhaps or perhaps not,

The dice are for any Biotech test, the -2 only for for first aid, some people might not of got that, more so since you used it in the same sentence so fuck you.