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Bossemanden
The situation is this:

I have a player that I allowed to be a vampire and a PhysAd at the same time. This is of course an expensive combo, but it does give a couple of problems. When to roll for magic loss for one.
My initial position is that he must roll for magic loss every time he hits deadly wounded, and as he regenerates that can be quite often.
He is of course of the opinion that he should only roll for magic loss when he fails his regen roll.

The compromis we are discussing is throwing two (different) dice when he hits deadly. One for the body. If it fails (i.e rolling a 1) then he also has to roll for magic loss. The other is only for the magic. If he rolls a one then he must roll for magic loss.

What do people here think. Am I being overly nice or harsh?
Zeel De Mort
Just make him roll for magic loss every time he takes a straight out deadly, just like everyone else. That should be fine. It's a good way to stop him from just diving into the thick of things cos he knows he'll (probably) regenerate it all afterwards.
FlakJacket
Tough luck, you take a deadly wound then you do the magic loss dance.
Bossemanden
Ok. Im not sure if Ill enforce that (risk of a very angry player). But I am certainly not going to give him all that he wants (only on failed regen roll). So its either always on deadly or the compromise I outlined above.

Edit: Hmm I just had an idea. Use the good/evil coin....mmh yes that makes sense. cool.gif
BitBasher
By the rules he takes magic loss like everyone else. Regeneration doesn't stop horrible trauma, it just stops it from staying that way.

Edit: DONT WUSS OUT. Do what's right not what the player wants. Sometimes what's good for the game is NOT what the player wants. Bend over for a player and he'll know you will again in the future. You run your game, NOT him.
Eyeless Blond
Indeed; if they guy can't stop taking Deadly wounds even with regeneration they shouldn't be in battle at all.

Btw, is there a rule somewhere about having to check for magic loss whenever a character has 16 or more boxes of damage, whether or not either monitor is in deadly, or is that something else?
Bossemanden
Dunno about that 16 box rule. Where is it written?
Zeel De Mort
You need trauma surgery after you get a total of 16 boxes, even if you're not into deadly, but as far as I know you don't have to check for magic loss. In fact I'm quite sure you don't.
BitBasher
Where is that trauma surgery rule?
Bossemanden
I just sent my player a mail where I explained that Im gonna use the good/evil coin every time he hits deadly (I also explained that whining about this will only result in the coin showing evil every time).

Thanks for the comments and advice guys.
Zeel De Mort
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Where is that trauma surgery rule?

p148 M&M, at the bottom of the second paragraph of the Trauma Surgery heading.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Bossemanden @ Aug 11 2004, 05:44 PM)
I just sent my player a mail where I explained that Im gonna use the good/evil coin every time he hits deadly (I also explained that whining about this will only result in the coin showing evil every time).

Thanks for the comments and advice guys.

That really is a shame. You shouldn't give special treatment to a player just because he's upset with the rules, especially when you've already allowed him to play an immensely powerful character to begin with (seriously; a single vampire can take down an entire team of experienced shadowrunners).

If anything, you should allow this coin-toss rule for everyone in the game (both PCs and NPCs alike). It's just not fair to the other players to let him be a vampire and not suffer Magic Loss as often as they have to just because he goes into fights kamikaze style.

Regeneration is no excuse for being stupid, and being stupid should never be rewarded.

Edit: And please, for all that's good in the world, try and stop using the term "PhysAd." Not only is it silly sounding/looking, but it's archaic. They're called "adepts" now. smile.gif
BitBasher
I have to totally agree with Funk here. Everyone should be treated equally. Period.
Bossemanden
You guys are probably right about this, but I was very quick to propose some sort of compromise. As such I had already eroded my bargaining position somewhat.

Part of this vampire adept (not PhysAd anymore wink.gif ) is that he has some compulsions, that force him to not drink more blood than up to 6 essence (if he breaks that one Im gonna give him hell) and weekly essence loss instead of monthly. On top of that he is very idealistic and tries unto folly to defend the weak against their oppressors.

Yes he is probably too powerfull, so I shall have to enforce his flaws very firmly.
Herald of Verjigorm
So, he gets 6 (5 before his weekly kill) added to his physical attributes, has access to all the same armor options as anyone else who wants to avoid cyberware and bioware, and he still can't avoid deadly wounds?

What does he do, carry a stake for purposes of impaling himself with?
Ol' Scratch
You left out Mist Form, the most potent ability they have. Especially since it grants Immunity to Normal Weapons.
BitBasher
QUOTE
You guys are probably right about this, but I was very quick to propose some sort of compromise. As such I had already eroded my bargaining position somewhat.
You dodn't erode anything. You're the GM. You summon some cojones and say "I though about it and decided against it. You're going to have to follow the normal rules. That's my final decision." Bam. Done.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
You left out Mist Form, the most potent ability they have. Especially since it grants Immunity to Normal Weapons.

It was in a previous draft that ended up too long and incomprehensible. Mist form + sorcery is crueler than a high force free spirit, but mist form + adept is only really abusive if you max out initiative and always keep a held action.
Bossemanden
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
So, he gets 6 (5 before his weekly kill) added to his physical attributes, has access to all the same armor options as anyone else who wants to avoid cyberware and bioware, and he still can't avoid deadly wounds?

What does he do, carry a stake for purposes of impaling himself with?

This specific time he did not have access to any armor (The nice and evil GM took it away).
Given his Robin Hood mentality itll be a while before he can afford any high grade armor though.
Hopefully by this time he has created enough attention that the society of St. Leopold (or someone like that) are going to come looking. Or I can just damn well decide that this is the case.

Basically when he stops roleplaying the restraints build into the character, I shall have to kill him (will probably give him a warning first).
Glyph
According to the Shadowrun Companion, pg. 36, a shapeshifter magician who takes deadly damage must check for Magic loss per the standard rules. That's an official rule for handling Magic loss for a regenerating character right there. So if you let him off with a 50/50 chance, you should also do the same thing for all of the awakened PCs. Like Dr. Funk said, fair is fair.
Ol' Scratch
If you do anything, introduce a new metamagic technique into your game. Call it something like "Grounding" and come up with some mechanic that allows the initiate to withstand Magic Loss more easily such as adding their initiate grade to the Magic Loss Test or something.

This gives the player an option, albeit one that he has to actively pursue and sacrifice something (another metamagic technique) in exchange for. It also simultaneously makes it an option for other players and thus keeps it fair all around.
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Bossemanden @ Aug 11 2004, 04:44 PM)
I just sent my player a mail where I explained that Im gonna use the good/evil coin every time he hits deadly (I also explained that whining about this will only result in the coin showing evil every time).

Bossemanden, I'm not sure you understand that he only rolls for Magic Loss when he takes a deadly wound all at once. Two or three people have said this, but your words don't seem to match that rule.
Deacon
Personally, I'd tell him that he checks for Magic Loss like everyone's been saying above, and if he don't like it, tell him not to let the door hit him in the ass on the way out. This is your game, not his. If he wants to whine and bitch and moan, he can do it somewhere else.
Bossemanden
QUOTE (OurTeam)
Bossemanden, I'm not sure you understand that he only rolls for Magic Loss when he takes a deadly wound all at once. Two or three people have said this, but your words don't seem to match that rule.

No you are right. I didnt understand that. Thanks for clarifying.
The White Dwarf
Got a page ref on that? I remember it reading where if you hit deadly on the monitor (be it 10 lights, 4 mods, or 1 deadly) thats when you check. There a spot it specifically says the magic loss check is only if you take a deadly level single hit? If so this rule is going to be a lot less of an issue... to take deadly in one go you almost have to shoot yourself =/
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (The White Dwarf)
Got a page ref on that?

SR3.129 Magical Characters and Damage

"When an Awakened character suffers a Deadly wound ... the character risks a loss of magic..."

Our team has interpreted "suffers a Deadly wound" to mean taking 10 boxes of damage at one time. Obviously several people above also interpret it that way. Some people might interpret it differently.
Zazen
So if I snag a trauma damper, I'll damn near never take magic loss? Sweet.
TheScamp
QUOTE
Our team has interpreted "suffers a Deadly wound" to mean taking 10 boxes of damage at one time.

The thing is that 10 boxes full on the Physical Condition monitor is also called a 'deadly wound'.
BitBasher
Actually the trauma damper transferrs one box from physical to stun, IE it starts physical then is moved to stun. You still take a deadly wound. The level of the damage was still D. IMHO there is still definitely a roll for magic loss.
krishcane
Besides, what the big deal about losing a point of Magic? You've got all manner of interesting geasa options, and you can initiate later. It's only a temporary setback, which is MORE than fair if you've taken a Deadly wound. It's even less of a big deal when you have +6 to all your physical attributes (and a correspondingly absurd combat pool and potential armor-wearing from high Quickness) and you regenerate the damage.

Death should hurt at least a little, even for the undead. Losing a point of Magic is a good way to ensure that the vampire is pissed off after you gun him down, instead of merely entertained.

--K
Pelaka
Rather then giving him a 50/50 chance of avoiding magic loss completely could you say he instead has a 50/50 chance of taking the hit as essense rather then magic... he is a vampire after all.

Pel
Bossemanden
QUOTE (Pelaka)
Rather then giving him a 50/50 chance of avoiding magic loss completely could you say he instead has a 50/50 chance of taking the hit as essense rather then magic... he is a vampire after all.

Pel

Aah this is both evil and clever. Very good smile.gif
BitBasher
QUOTE (Pelaka)
Rather then giving him a 50/50 chance of avoiding magic loss completely could you say he instead has a 50/50 chance of taking the hit as essense rather then magic... he is a vampire after all.

Pel

As long as you want no consequences at all yeah. He can get back essence by sucking soneone's essence. Magic doesnt work that way, they aren't comparable.
Zazen
I think he was suggesting that instead of Magic-Loss/Nothing, he has to flip for Magic-Loss/Essense-Loss. It's at least a little better.
BitBasher
Ahhh, my bad. Got it! biggrin.gif

EDIT: Er, but that would be screwing him more than a normal player. Deadly wounds never cause essence loss to anyone. No wound does.
Ol' Scratch
Normal characters (as opposed to normal players) don't gain Essence, either.
BitBasher
In this case yes, that's true.
Bossemanden
Just to give you the end of the story regarding magic loss for a Vampire Adept on reaching deadly wound.
I gave my player the choice between:

a) Flip a coin. Heads=roll for magic loss. Tails=Automatic essence loss (hes a vampire so he can regain those fairly easily)

b) roll for magic loss as usual.

In the end he chose option b)

So no different treatment to him there.
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