That more or less sums it all. I've been seeing reviews on most countries by now, but there have been so little comments regarding Spain that my anxiety is reaching un-healthy levels. So, since it has worked before, I thought I should open the thread.

So, guys, where do you want to hit first?

It's not bad. I like the conflict between three different kinds of totalitarian philosophies--religion, military, and corporate--all struggling for dominance, while the anarchists and leftists lurk in the shadows. The struggle for the throne is, eh, ok. Galicia seems a bit too good to be true. There's not much feel for Euskal Herria. I'll post more if I can think of anything.

Aw, we could have kept him twisting in the wind a little longer.

For the most part I liked it. A land so royally screwed over by wars and natural disasters That the people seem bitter and the handling of the church gives far more of a reason for antimeta-prejudice than most places.
You're also the only writer (ever)who seemed to adress the problems created among the faithful by the church's complete about face on metas. Like the song says "You've got to be taught to hate and fear, it's got to be whispered in your dear little ear." Here were people getting pounded on, "freaks" appear in their midst and they are given the go ahead to hate by the followers of the prince of peace, so it gets well set in the minds before they are told, "no go the other way now."

Interestingly the problems I have with Spain are the exact opposite of my problems with Hollend. lots on people but felt I was missing something in the coprs, but that is easily made up.

I would also ask, What about Gibralter? The spanish would like it back but the people, in the last ballot voted 98% against anything to do with Madrid. In RL they just celebrated 300 years of British rule and delight in pointing out that they have been ruled longer by London, than they had been by Madrid.

Well, SoE states that it is still under British rule - UK Chapter and the Europe map in the front. Also, it being a strategic point for access between the Mediterranean Sea and Atlantic Ocean, I would visualise the Royal Navy wanting to make an effort of keeping it under British rule. Maybe the UK struck a deal with Spain to patrol the area and offer a first line of defence against another Jihad from North Africa?

What do you reckon Sepherim?

One possibility is that the continued possession of Gibralter was part of the deal struck with the British for covert military support in helping the Spanish strike behind AfA lines to knock over the fundamentalist government in Morrocco and placing the legitimate (moderate) king back on the throne.

Making the prince an ogre was a nice touch, although you really should have explained it to lay folks (Spanish royalty is related to the House of Hanover, right?)

Well, there were far more details about the corps in our drafts (and three or four other corps were left out), but we had to free space. The corp faction was the one easier to understand quickly, and so, we thought it should get the short-straw. Besides, other countries in Europe were already quite corp-oriented, so it was natural to detail more the "local" things.

I think the royal family of Spain is closer to Austria than Britain with the house of Hapsburg.

I finished reading it, and I like that part very much.

I would only say that I don't find Euskal Herria interresting, due to "lack of characterization" and "overcharacterization" (yeah, both). The average joe Runner with the "Beret basque" is not enough to make me look into it, and the lack of real cultural interest just makes me read over it. Don't get me wrong, thought Sepherim, it is not badly written, nor uninterresting, but I feel like you had not enough pages to devellop your full ideas (and that could be said for a lot of other countries, notably England and France).

I would sum up that by saying that you did a very good job, and i'm pretty sure you could really enhance that Spain chapter with some online goodies (that forest for example intrigues me a lot).

Since the review post for the whole SOE is clogged with digressions, I will add here my felicitations for the whole team, the book is a pleasure to read and really falls into my views of SR. Art is excellent as well, with only a few pieces that I don't like. My only regret is the lack of devellopement from what is written, I am hungering now for more. (a little shameless chauvinism here, well done French team, you did an impressive job allthough you overlooked my home town )

Sorry for the digression...

EDIT : 'Spell checking and wrong spelling of Sepherim's name :/

I like gibralter being british still in return for Brit support against the moors. And a British base there means the spanish don't have to stand alone if the moors return.

Now I'm wondering about the forests in northern spain and the mists in Brittany, both the north coasts and nature wiping out humanity's marks on the land, while the veil around Tir Na Nog fails. just a hint of threads I can't grasp.

Just to tease Sepherim, I'm posting this to the "right" thread as a prelude for more serious discussion.


One thing to note is that the first thing I did when I got it was skip to the Spain & EH chapter because that was the country I was most interested in reading about. I was also interested in it because I was apprehensive about there even being a EH in SR. I was also intrigued at the dispute over the throne after having read about the outcome in SOTA64 already. The thing about that is that there is a nice big gap between SoE and SOTA64 which can explain the events which subsequently occurred almost anyway you like, and through almost any means you want to establish the given result. But back to Spain itself, I ended up rather enjoying the chapter, although I thought it was interesting that no one mentioned that the line of stones across northern Spain seemed to follow the main Camino de Santiago route. As for EH, my personal bias and the material produced a response eqv. to, "It could be worse, but it's playable." But there's still a damn lot of good stuff in that chapter alone, let alone things that aren't in it, but which could be important in and of themselves--like, I don't know, the presence and role of Opus Dei beyond the brief mention it got.

Hahahaha. So, as a prelude answer, let's go.

First of all, I must say I'm flattered by your interest in the chapter, even before reading it. Seriously. Most people take SoE looking for England, Germany or France, it's always very nice to see that some people also go looking for Spain.

As was said in the other forum, there was indeed a map somewhere that compared the menhir line and the old Camino de Santiago. Still, when I wrote it, I was only thinking partially along those lines. Indeed, the line of stones follows most of the path, but not necesarily all of it. In fact, the line of stones is more of a celtic origin, and was particulary stron inside the Forest (though people outside don't know it). Still, somehow, the christian influence over so many centuries has had some kind of influence on the line, and it stems toward the Camino. So, what is it's real nature? Is it celtic influenced? Or is it christian in nature, and celtic shrines modified it a bit? No one knows, as so many other things. But obviously, this was too long to even be thought of introducing in the chapter.

And Opus Dei deserved a whole section on it, that's for sur, but I thought it should be let by in order for more important things to be discussed. Most of the stuff can be deduced from the contents of the chapter, still, mostly from the information on the Church, but you can bet they have a strong hand inside the economic pie too. I would have liked to develop a bit more the New Jesuits, though...

Still, you must take into account that too much was lost in the way. Each of the Communities had its own background, unique in some ways (some more than others) and quite a few of them didn't make it into the final cut...

Too true about the edits. I can't even begin to imagine what you had to cut, and then what they cut while you weren't looking.

My interest lies in Spain for three reasons. 1) I'm a Dominguez, 2) I was living in Spain at the time the EuroSB project was starting up, and 3) I was the one who translated the first 20Q synopsis from Spanish to English for Synner and the EuroSBers.

And I've said too much on that.

In regard to the menhir lines--I figured it wasn't founded on the Camino, but it seemed like a cool idea that they just happened to follow a similar route. Had the cathedral not been underwater (as if it matters to the manasphere), I can only begin to imagine what kind of a background count it would have. The place already has an palpable sense of ... something, and the Camino has its own mystique.

While I'd like to have seen more about Opus Dei, I understand the need for sharp edits. However, the renewed interest in the RCC opens up the possibilities of all sorts of intrigue involving the RCC and its parishoners (sp?). The most immediate example that comes to mind is the last great Soviet mole, Robert Hanssen, and the fact that he was a member of Opus Dei.

Likewise, I can also appreciate the effort into the ACs, and the removal of some of the other Communities for space. But it just means more of an opportunity for me to do whatever I want to the rest of the country. Especially Madrid.

As for Gibraltar... "We all live in a yellow submarine."

Well, you do have a point when you say that leaving some Communities undescribed leaves a lot of space for the master to opperate. I hadn't thought about that, but it does seem like a good option.

As for Santiago's Cathedral, I don't think it would loose it's background count for being underworld. Fish magicians will surely still have to deal with it.

Indeed. I'd like to think I can come up with some interesting ideas about running in the Islas Baleares or the Basque coastline. But mainly, I can do whatever I want with Madrid, and so I'm not that disappointed in the brevity of space devoted to individual locations.

Ah, no I didn't mean the cathedral wouldn't have a background count. I specifically mentioned that, AFAIK, magic doesn't care about whether something's underwater. It's just that it's not a simple matter of having the PCs walk inside and giving even a 0 Essence cybered-up death machine the chills.

However, it does beg the question: If all the major relics were removed, where'd they go?

Loose Alliances

You mean teaser.

Well, seems like Synner holds the ace up his sleave on this issue. I guess that time will tell where they've gone. I can only say that, as you say, the were removed from the Cathedral during the War, to use them as a call for the faith of the spaniards. After that... Toledo, maybe, but only maybe.

Damn you, Synner. I could have made a whole campaign out of looking for them, right after we solved the mystery of the Nightwraith attack and the Lone Eagle incident!

Arrrgh!

I was thinking even Rome could work.

Sorry. Will repost it when I am actually done with the review.

Okay. Sorry. Done. For real, this time.

Review time. Personal thoughts to follow in another post.

Synner's Introduction

Cool. Especially if the most in-depth reading on Spain someone's had is reading Iberia.

Sepherim's Introduction
Good setup. Succint and foolproof.

Spain's Recent History
Sepherim's assessment is all-too-true from my own POV.

Expect more on the Islamic Renaissance Movement in upcoming books... and a few more surprises.

Theoretically that could get very ugly with less msture gamers having a go at muslim terrorists.

The Islamic Renaissance is almost on the exact opposite pole to the New Islamic Jihad and the militant factions within the IUM (which have been around for a while and technically fit the Islamic terrorist profile better). Exactly what that means and what it entails in practice is what should be in upcoming books. Much like myself with the RCC, the guy who originally concieved the IRM, did so partially to help shift the negative portrayal of Islamic culture that might have developed from canon as it stood. A whole lot of homework went into this and the result is well-grounded, researched and more than plausible. Trust us, if we didn't shaft the Catholics and we didn't botch the Wiccans, we're definitely not going to paint Islam in black and white.

As was posted recently Loose Alliances should have a chapter which features the Islamic Renaissance Movement, Islamic Unity Movement and the New Islamic Jihad.

Oh, cool. You're two for two with SoE and SOTA64 (and your work in SOTA63, although I think you downplayed combat magic's effectiveness). One more and you get a free set of steak knives. Or a beer.

I'm not in any way concerned with implications to terrorism that might involve the IRM for the reasons of what the IRM is compared to IUM and NIJ, as Synner pointed out. My interest is in its relationship to the latter two, and the possible implication that it is being set up in the same way as the RCC was against Aztlan/Aztechnology (which is something I havent' forgotten about, btw, and adds its own elements to what I can do to Spain). Reading the information and shadowtalk on the IRM, then reading SOTA64, there is an innuendo of something bad; something that the IRM is in a position to work against.

Anyway, my full thoughts will be up later today.

Whoa... Wait a minute. Santiago (Oh, hell, let's call him St. James for clarity's sake) was underwater until the EuroWars? Hmm.

Anyway...

Part of this is to try and find a point between discussing the state of Spain, and the events which color my own perceptions.

Spain is a wonderful country, and one that felt more like home than my own home state (even though they share a disturbing number of geographical similarities, and heritage). The environmental destruction of Europe, including Spain, seems to be related to a recognition of events that, frankly, don't seem to have been considered in North America much outside of southern California. But it's interesting to think that the events in Asturias are related to the mythology and history of the region, and that it's not just Mother Nature being pissed off, but there is something else going on there. It ties in well with events occurring in other countries (specifically, France), and creates an atmosphere where several things are occurring which can draw in runners and get them involved in all manner of activities. I'm not sure if the events in brittany and Asturias are related, but they share several common traits. Meiga's comment seems to be the key, but at the same time it's the reason why I don't think it is related to events elsewhere except in the most general sense.

Likewise, the ravaging of Galicia is an impressive image, especially when capped with the sinking of Santiago de Compostela. I remember driving through the community, knowing that the EuroSB project was underway, and thinking about what could happen to Galicia, and massive flooding and natural destruction did cross my mind.

The Jihad is the most significant event in the backstory which I'd like to know more about. I'd expect that the response to the invasion was rather sudden, and popular response to any call of arms was likewise sudden and massive. Especially with a situation where, as you mentioned, the relics of Santiago were carried into battle that the war had a lasting and profound impact on the Spanish people. Furthermore, there is also the rather symbolic defeat of Muslim forces again at Granada--especially consider who's buried there. It's not surprising to see it develop into a region where Islam is a presence and growing, and it's interesting to see how the political struggles within Islam are being shaped in Spain. OTOH, it also made me consider something which was mentioned in the overview of Europe chapter about the low-intensity warfare and terrorism which was also occurring during the AfA invasion--something which I had also considered a great deal about while I was in Spain (did I mention my hobbies include studying intelligence-gathering, espionage, international crime, and terrorism?). Riding a RENFE train through Madrid everyday I saw a great potential in those trains being bombed, but not by ETA. It ripped my fucking heart out when it actually happened, exactly like I figured it would. Which leads me to my utter lack of surprise at how Madrid was described. When a national capital gets attacked-- life changes, and not for the best. With an actual war and invasion occurring, life must have been Hell. The fact that the Spanish were magnanimous enough to institute a reconstruction program using Muslim labor around Granada belies a much greater integrity and respect for life than I have.

The fallout from the Awakening and Goblinization is just incredible. I can appreciate the effect that the original pronouncement on the Awakened would have--believe me. I live in a country where, to be honest, there are people in power who'd wet themselves with glee because it portends the end of the world. But first, let's kill us some hellspawn. It really is something that you all did better than FASA did with North America, because I cannot see how this country--which I have concluded is probably the most batshit crazy and irrational of the developed countries--wouldn't have been ten times worse than portrayed, and definitely worse than anything described in SoE. I can't help feeling that the level of serious devotion and the conservative nature of the country is exaggerated, though, Perhaps it's the bias of the narrators (which, like I said, is perfectly reasonable and cool, actually) or maybe it's just me. Or both. However, for every negative there is a positive in the game (personal opinion of RL aside), and it's in the form of Galicia and Euskadi and (I assume) Barcelona and maybe other parts of Catalunya. And it also reminds me of the times when I wondered if, prior to the Civil War, pretty much all of northern Spain wondered why they bothered sticking with the rest of the country; aside from the Basque, Catalan, and Galego nationalists, and more on economic grounds.

As for the secession and formation of Euskal Herria, which I've lightened up on considerably, it makes sense within the context of all of the events which had been occurring at that time, combined with the machinations of other outside influences who may or may not really be too interested in the history of events that led to it even being sought so much as it would be Bilbao, San Sebastien, and Gasteiz-Vitoria would be free from Spanish regulatory authority--which is made abundantly clear with the existence of the Consejo Economico. Given that situation, as well as recent events, Spain should be so lucky that Barcelona's still officially part of Spain.

And that brings us to the conflict over the throne and the constant insinuation about how destructive the split over who wins (won), could be. It's especially telling when you consider that both sides think that they are doing what's best for the country, and combined with regional differences which have led to more independent communities and a sovereign Euskal Herria, and if history is any indicator, this does not look good. OTOH, the political schism between the sides doesn't seem to be as bad as it was in the past, but they rest on very highly-charged perspectives which go beyond mere politics. This is what makes the machinations surrounding the contest for the throne so significant, and so much more than some people seemed to have given it credit--it is a proxy for everything which is currently dividing Spain, from the issue of religion and the treatment of metas and magic to the secessionist interests throughout Spain and their counterparts who want a stronger centralized government--one which includes and subjugated Euskadi, the economic interests between northern and southern Spain, and politics--especially left-wing political activism which seems to be under represented, or just lying in wait.

I'm also interested in the role of the Spanish Church and breakaway churches in Galicia and EH, for example, and their relation to the other non-Muslim religions (that's been addressed), as well as the social atmosphere surrounding those religions. I know that it's been somewhat of a shock for myself to imagine that there are Mormons and Prods infiltrating Spain. Likewise, the history of Toledo--the center of the Spanish Church--has its own history of religious interactions. I was wondering if you had some ideas on the issue, if it came up.

Like I mentioned in the review, there are all manner of events which the Church is involved with, but the history of Aztechnology and the fact that its European headquarters is in Barcelona--and that it competes directly with one of Spain's largest domestic corps--is something which I fear many people will gloss over, but which I think is a Big Deal. The presence of Aztechnology in Spain presents all manner of conflicts, especially considering the role of the Church in Spain and the doubtless perspective and, indeed, pride and arrogance of most of the upper echelons of Aztechnology, and definitely Aztlan, about their Spanish heritage (something which doesn't stop at the Rio Grande, btw). It seems Synner's not involved in SoLA, but I bet we could have a grand old discussion about this. Combine that with the description of Aztechnology in CD and you have to wonder how low they've sunk when it comes to pandering to the people of Spain using some of the very beliefs which the corp has gone to great lengths to exterminate in Aztlan. Likewise, it's an interesting relationship that they have to play in public given the likely shadow relationship, with the government caught in the middle pledging allegiance to the church while itself is most likely pandering to Aztechnology on a constant basis due to its sheer economic influence. I really wanted Aztechnology to control El Corte Ingles just because it seemed so perfect and ruthlessly underhanded on their part. At the same time, there are Spanish companies with interests in Latin America, including Aztlan (specifically described in the Sol Media section), where the two sides have to play a cautios game given the number of variables which conspire against any relationship (and this isn't even getting into general Azzie-haters, green cells, anti-corporate libero-anarchists and neo-anarchists, et al.). At the same time, Aztechnology has a corporate religion which is founded on the mutilated corpse of the Mexican Catholic Church and which glorifies magic, while their meta policy is slightly more liberal than the Spanish (who doesn't hate a trog?). Oh, and did I mention that there seem to be a damn lot of Latin Americans in Madrid? I don't imagine that changed at all. No... Why would anyone want to leave Aztlan? No one left Amazonia.

I seemed to have lost my composure (I've been typing for a couple of hours... I'm slow that way). But I wanted to skip down to mention that my response to the Gudariak in EH reminds me a lot of the May 2001 election in Pais Vasco and the activities that the Spanish government took during that election.

Since you did produce more work than what was published, I am curious if you might be willing to describe anything else you wanted to get in there, or maybe places which might also be important: Salamanca, valencia, the Islas Baleares. I imagine there was (relatively speaking) a lot more on Euskal Herria and the cities. Salamanca seems like it might be a stronghold of the Enlightened faction of the Church, which would be a nice counterpart to Toledo, which I imagine was also touched on more in the rough draft.

So, that's it for now.

Wow, a couple days off-line, and I return and see this. Too much of a fruitcake, as not to answer in detail. I'll still cut some parts off, as to shorten the message.

Okay, time for the second part. Let's get our digital fingers to it!

I certanly hope so. Too many years of work have been used in SoE for it to go by unnoticed, though it hasn't been the case. Yet, there's still quite a lot of things that maybe haven't received the propper attention, and I'm not talking necessarily of Spain right now.