Gasp! That's only because that's the way it's been. That's why... <leans in close and whispers>... it's being pointed out as a house rule along with reasons and actual playtested evidence why it's not broken. But, shh. Don't tell anyone.
The advantages a VCR gives beyond the simple creation of a Control Pool are the real advantages of a VCR. The VCR itself already adds to that Control Pool (adding twice its level as a bonus to Reaction, and thus Control Pool). It also provides a target number modifier, lower target number penalty for defaulting to Reaction, bonus Reaction, and bonus Initiative. Even a rigger with a VCR 1 will run all over a normal character with OR without a Control Pool of their own.
A more accurate example would be changing the rules so that only people with Wired Reflexes was allowed a Combat Pool. It's the exact same difference here.
Full Version: Vehicle Damage Resistance Test
I just don't understand giving a bonus from cyberware to PCs without said cyberware.
You keep bringing up Wired Reflexes. Wired reflexes doesn't create a combat pool. Nor is it the only thing that improves a character in combat. The VCR creates control pool. It is the single most important piece of ware for a rigger. In fact, it makes a rigger a rigger.
P.S. - You're damn right that's the way it's been, and you know what? ..<leans in close and whispers>.. it has years of playtesting to prove it's not broken.
You keep bringing up Wired Reflexes. Wired reflexes doesn't create a combat pool. Nor is it the only thing that improves a character in combat. The VCR creates control pool. It is the single most important piece of ware for a rigger. In fact, it makes a rigger a rigger.
P.S. - You're damn right that's the way it's been, and you know what? ..<leans in close and whispers>.. it has years of playtesting to prove it's not broken.
| QUOTE (Capt. Dave) |
| You keep bringing up Wired Reflexes. Wired reflexes doesn't create a combat pool. |
And that would be the point.
| QUOTE |
| P.S. - You're damn right that's the way it's been, and you know what? ..<leans in close and whispers>.. it has years of playtesting to prove it's not broken. |
If that was true then so many people wouldn't have house ruled it the other way.
Hmm. I suppose we must simply agree to disagree. 
I think what they are proposing is that we disassociate the Control Pool from the VCR.
The Control becomes like the Combat Pool in that everyone who can drive a car (or boat or what have you) gets some Control Pool.
The rigger's VCR would (among other things) enhance his Control Pool like Combat Sense enhances an adepts Combat Pool or a Tactical Computer might enhance a street sam's Combat Pool.
Instead of a blanket 2XBody or 3XBody you could also make it more categorical. For example:
1 X BODY for:
- collisions with other vehicles
- collisions with barriers
- vehicular weapons like ATGMs, autocannons and HMGs (because seriously, a full auto burst from a .50 cal should tear up your Honda...)
2 X BODY for:
- small arms fire
- collisions with pedestrians/random farm animals
3 X BODY for:
- melee attacks
- thrown weapons
- projectile weapons (shooting a car with an arrow shouldn't really do much...)
1 X BODY for:
- collisions with other vehicles
- collisions with barriers
- vehicular weapons like ATGMs, autocannons and HMGs (because seriously, a full auto burst from a .50 cal should tear up your Honda...)
2 X BODY for:
- small arms fire
- collisions with pedestrians/random farm animals
3 X BODY for:
- melee attacks
- thrown weapons
- projectile weapons (shooting a car with an arrow shouldn't really do much...)
I really like Method's idea there.
| QUOTE |
| Instead of a blanket 2XBody or 3XBody you could also make it more categorical. For example: 1 X BODY for: - collisions with other vehicles - collisions with barriers - vehicular weapons like ATGMs, autocannons and HMGs (because seriously, a full auto burst from a .50 cal should tear up your Honda...) 2 X BODY for: - small arms fire - collisions with pedestrians/random farm animals |
-vehicular weapons? which ones do these include... LMG (7S)?
-small arms fire?
preety stretched out simplification. Shotgun 10S? Not all shotguns fire shot or fletchette..Alot of them fling slugs with vicious stopping power. Ex Explosive slug on shotgun and 12S...do u still think this will do any less nastiness to an engine block or car engine area (non-steel parts requied for car's operation) than a 7S LMG? (Assuming SA shot to stay under staging power and keep the comparison same...bullet for bullet)
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3 X BODY for: - melee attacks - thrown weapons - projectile weapons (shooting a car with an arrow shouldn't really do much...) |
thrown weapons? grenades do 10S dont they...how are they any different to damaging the car then the shotgun...
also these kinds of unfair classification to weapons will end up skewing the cmpaign into certain style of characters.namely ones carrying alot of 1st category weapons and some dabbling inyo category 2...very few will put serious skill into category 3...if ur campaign has lots of vehicle runs sorta things...
| QUOTE |
| Ex Explosive slug on shotgun and 12S...do u still think this will do any less nastiness to an engine block or car engine area (non-steel parts requied for car's operation) than a 7S LMG? |
It will do next to nothing, it will never hit an engine block or other vital component because when it hits the car's skin the shell dentonates and doesnt penetrate further. This is why EX sucks at penetrating barriers. It would cause nasty cosmetic damage and not much else, unless the engine or other vital components were exposed.
| QUOTE |
| thrown weapons? grenades do 10S dont they...how are they any different to damaging the car then the shotgun... |
That depends a lot on the grenade. AP would do squat as it follow flechette rules and penetrates armor poorly. Concussion would do absolutely nothing at all by canon, while HE would do decent, but still be ignored by any vehicle with an armor of 5 or better.
| QUOTE |
| -vehicular weapons? which ones do these include... LMG (7S)? |
Uh... weapons designed for use against vehicles.
LMGs are anti-personel weapons. Most chamber rounds similar to assault rifles. They are light so as to be man portible and thus suitible for infantry battles. You could make a case for a MMGs, but really HMGs (.50 cal is standard in the U.S. military) are anti-vehicular. SRs numbers might put them all in close proximity when it comes to power (which is due mostly to game balance... a single round from a HMG should be closed to 14D) but the reality is different.
| QUOTE |
| -small arms fire? preety stretched out simplification. Shotgun 10S? Not all shotguns fire shot or fletchette..Alot of them fling slugs with vicious stopping power. |
Not really. Small arms (as used in military terms) means anything up to a HMG, includeing SGs and LMGs. And as BitBasher has stated, a SG's effect on a vehicle will vary quite a bit.
SG slugs are just that, SLUGS. they aren't pointed or jacketed for better penetration and there is (usually) no rifleing involved. 9 times out of 10 a SG slug is going to fragment when it hits something really hard like an engine block or armored plate.
| QUOTE |
| thrown weapons? grenades do 10S dont they...how are they any different to damaging the car then the shotgun... |
Seriously now... do you think I ment grenades when I said thrown weapons? Sorry if that was unclear. I neglected to differentiate every possible situation in the ~3 minutes I spent developing this mechanic...
Srapnel from a grenade would be very different than a SG slug. First it would be harder (probably iron as opposed to lead) and jagged and second it would have a much higher velocity. But at any rate I would still put them in the second category, as grenades aren't really the most effective means of destroying a vehicle.
And by the by, you're saying my "system" is screwy, but wouldn't you agree that its better than SR's "a pistol has basically the same effect as a HMG with a lower DC" system?
[EDIT]:
| QUOTE |
| also these kinds of unfair classification to weapons will end up skewing the cmpaign into certain style of characters.namely ones carrying alot of 1st category weapons... |
The reality of the situation is that if your players are running about trying to blow up cars with pistols they are screwed... If they want to take out vehicles with any degree of armor they should need bigger guns!!
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