OK, this might seem like a dumb ass question but strictly according to the specific rules, cyber weaponry aren't allowed in astral combat (astrally perceiving only) unless they are weapon foci. However, in the preceding paragraph there is a reference to "appropriate" combat skill being used in astral combat and only Ranged skills other than Sorcery were outright forbidden. So my question is: Are Cyber weaponry allowed in Astral combat provided you are not Projecting?

Only if they are dual natured for whatever reason. I think canon assumes that 99% of the time the implants that are not foci are not dual natured. Sometimes this is not the case (such as Cyber Spur Astral Constructs) but...

I know some will argue that whatever you've paid essence for will be dual natured when you perceive, but I don't know that the rules support that.

This could also involve having to default to an "appropriate combat skill".
Although having a perciving character without means to deal with what he/she sees is just downright silly. SURGE excluded of course.

Cyberzombie?

The rules are pretty clear.

If you have a weapon focus, you may use the appropriate Armed Combat Skill. That could be Edged Weapons, Clubs, or even Cyber-Implant Combat. If you don't have a weapon focus -- be it a Sword, Mace, or Retractable Spurs -- you have to use Unarmed Combat (or a Marital Arts skill if those rules are being used) or Sorcery. This applies whether you're dual-natured (which is what you become the moment you astrally perceive anyway) or not.

Where's the confusion, and why should cybernetically implanted weapons be given some special consideration?

Yes, but a cyberzombie is totally dual natured... even previously mundane parts will be dual, shouldn't it?

The cyberzombie himself is dual-natured, not his equipment. Just like shapeshifters, vampires, ghouls, astrally perceiving magicians, a SURGEd street samurai, and every other dual-natured being.

Slow down, you lost me. Unless you are saying that somehow the cyber spurs are seperate from the cyberzombie... OK, I'd accept it as a strict interpretations of the rules. But is there any other rule stating otherwise?

They're as seperate from the cyberzombie as his firearm, sword, and clothing is. It just happens to be a weapon implanted into his flesh rather than holstered at his hip.

Except that its paid for with essence like cyber eyes... and those dont count as equipment. Id allow them, he gets his other implants in astral combat like extra body dice from cyberlimbs. No real rules reference... but thats my ruling based on the context. Only for dual natured mind you, projection is a whole nother story.

It all comes down to where you believe the break in the text appears.

[Dammit]

No you twit, thats not what I said. I said I allowed spurs. Im merely pointing out that just as you could classify it as a seperate weapon, you could classify it as paid with essence and part of the character. Dont extropolate it into something its not. Each of those items involves something obviously not internalized, that is much more clearly a seperate entity (laser, bullet, poison respectivly). Bonelacing, Spurs, Cycbereyes are the sort of interal implants that would make sense.

I disagree. There is no difference. Cybernetic armor does nothing to aid against astral damage, and it's as close to being part of you as a pair of spurs are; metal strapped to your flesh and bones. At least an Eye Laser gets part of its power from your very Essence and has a better chance of being rationalized as part of you than some steel sticking out of your fingertips does.

Regardless, the rules are clear. Unless the weapon is a weapon focus, you use Unarmed Combat or Sorcery. Trying to get around that by claiming that the first paragraph is talking about dual-natured beings (where it just mentions "skill" not "Armed Combat Skill even if you lack a weapon focus, as clarified below") is a moot point -- mundanes can't engage in astral combat to begin with. The third paragraph clarifies the text in the first two.

But if you want to allow otherwise in your game, do so. Just don't try to make yourself feel better by claiming the rules support that decision. They clearly don't.

Hey Doc, whats your take on why the damage chart lists both an unarmed combat and a Dual being damage reference. What is the difference and what is the dual being using?

Because dual-beings get to use their Physical Attributes in astral combat, while an astrally projecting magician (who, believe it or not, can also engage in astral combat -- imagine that) does not. If the projecting magician doesn't have a weapon focus, they, too, get to choose to use Sorcery or Unarmed Combat to defend themselves.

He's referring to page 176, "Astral Damage Codes." It's basically just reaffirming the fact that dual-beings get to use Strength in place of Charisma on their attacks.

Right, which is an exception to normal astral combat.

I didnt claim it... I even said "no rules reference" in my reply. Reading = good.

Again, why separate the two? Its still unarmed combat right? Why don't they just say unarmed combat STR M? And why is there a reference to "by type"? Of what? The only reason to separate the two is because different rules apply.

Because it's not (Strength)M under most circumstances. It's only (Strength)M when astral combat is engaged in by dual-natured beings and dual-beings are not the only ones capable of astral combat.

The comment of "by type" is just shorthand for "get it through your skull that dual-natured beings get to use their Strength score in astral combat." Or in other words, if they have a weapon focus and are weilding it in astral combat, dual-beings get to use the normal Damage Code for the weapon instead of (Strength)M like they do without a weapon or using Charisma like an astrally projecting mage would normally do.

The normal damage code is charisma. Any time a weapon focus is used in astral combat wether its by an astrally perceiving character or projecting its always charisma that determines the power of the attack. In any case that choice is already spelled out above the listing for dual being. Why repeat it, its the same on the physical or astral against astral targets.

What I'm saying is that the third paragraph gives three choices for PC's and one for spirits. Unarmed, armed with weapon focus or sorcery to replace either. If dual beings don't go by different rules then why are they on the table? Astral STR = physical CHR. The dual natured PC doesn't have a weapon focus so lets dump that option, he's not a spirit so lets dump that one also. That leaves two. Unarmed, and dual being. On the table, its makes zero reference to the status of the combatant. It just says unarmed. Why doesn't this apply to the dual being? By the letter of the rules in the third paragraph, he HAS to be unarmed (or using sorcery). So why doesn't the table just say Unarmed STR M? The text says dual beings use normal attributes and the third paragraph says you use normal melee rules which also says your unarmed melee damage is determined by STR. An astrally projecting character also uses their STR for astral combat. The stat is equal to their physical CHR. So why do they separate the two? Its the same thing.

The point I keep expecting someone to bring up is the section on astral interaction. The only one who has mentioned it so far is me. It says physical weapons are useless against astral opponents. They work on physically materialized astral forms and then a mundane or awakened person uses their CHR for damage. But that is neither here nor there. Trying to use spurs in combat would be like shadow boxing. All of your blows would be inches short of the mark. Same with swords or any other melee weapon. Your cyber or [bioware (except for attribute increases)] has no reflection on the astral plane. You lose the benefits of your cyber eyes even though you paid for them with essence. When you go dual natured, your vision mag only helps you see things close up in the physical realm. Tangent: how weird would that be to see a materialized elemental from 50 m on the astral and 5 cm on the physical? The best arguement lies in this section.

The astral combat section is vague at best. You can't assume that separate paragraphs always refer to everything above them (not in english at least). Then there is the repetion of rules (three times for the dual beings) and an incomplete or overcomplete table. Like I said, can you use cyber weapons, no. The skills, possible but very silly or at least a not without a huge target modifier. I would say no but I am not your GM.

Or settle it once and for all and ask shadowrun info.

<exasperated sigh>

Here's a secondary question, just to mess with your heads:

Given that Muscle Augmentation is considered 'natural' for purposes of later buying Strength up with Karma, I'm willing to assume dual beings with Muscle Augmentation (perceiving mages, ghouls, et cetera) can use their adjusted strength for damaging spirits.

But what if they have Bone Lacing, which adds to their unarmed combat strikes?

And what if they have Orthoskin? Given that it's bioware, does it allow one to reduce the impact of astral attacks? And it's pretty canon that bio and cyberware are integrated into one's aura under MOST cases....

[QUOTE]QUOTE (Necrotech)
The normal damage code is charisma. Any time a weapon focus is used in astral combat wether its by an astrally perceiving character or projecting its always charisma that determines the power of the attack.


Wrong, as clearly spelled out in the text. I admit the table isn't very well written, but the text certainly is.[/QUOTE]

What text? The text on page 191?
[QUOTE]Active weapon Foci can be used against targets in astral space, provided the weilder is also present there. When used in astral combat, the weapon focus's Power is determined using Charisma instead of Physical Strength.[/QUOTE]

Its always charisma (weapon code) damage. Always.


[/QUOTE]QUOTE
Tangent: how weird would that be to see a materialized elemental from 50 m on the astral and 5 cm on the physical?

I have no idea what you're talking about here. they're either materialized (and dual-natured) or they're astral. There is no in-between state beyond the time it takes them to form their materialized form.[QUOTE]

If you are engaing in astral combat while perceiving, so can see into both realms. If you are fighting a materialized spirit, it exists on both planes. Your cyber eyes only work in the physical. Therefore............

You do realize I agree with you. I thought my post made it pretty clear. I reposted because I was soliciting an opinion. I guess I won't do that again.

[/QUOTE] Like I said, can you use cyber weapons, no[QUOTE]

Is the text unclear, possibly. It sure makes a strong argument that there was so much confusion on the issue.




To answer Adarael, bone lacing is cyberware. No go.
I thought about the orthoskin deal but the answer is still no. Bioware only counts as natural when in reference to your attributes as stated in M&M. Its close but not quite because it screws with your ability to heal and it interferes with magical healing and causes magic loss. Without a direct rules quote to contradict, i'm giving a big thumbs down. Unfortunately.

Cyber spurs I would clearly say can not be used in astral combat, as the spur itself is not integral to your aura. A spur can be removed and replaced with little difficulty and not create an essence hole, as long as the cyber for attatching the spur is still there. The spur is like a knife, and the attatchment is like a hand, which is what you pay the essence for. This is just my interpretation of it, not sure if the rules actually back that up, but it seems logical to me.

As for bone lacing, I would let it count for a dual being, as by the logic used above it is fully integrated into your aura and therfor should affect your astral presence as well. In rules terms, it is dicey here, as bone lacing does not really count as a weapon, and is part of unarmed combat, so should count, but it is still 'ware and not natural damage, so seems like maybe it shouldn't count. Pretty much has to be up to GM call, until there is official errata for it, just make sure you check with your GM before assuming how it works.

Sorry, my quote function was seriously screwed up and it probably confused the issue. The quote on weapon foci is not mine, its the books quote on pg 191 of the BBB.

"Active weapon Foci can be used against targets in astral space, provided the weilder is also present there. When used in astral combat, the weapon focus's Power is determined using Charisma instead of Physical Strength."

There is no distinction between perceiving and projecting here. A perceiving character is present on both planes, therefore they use Charisma just like the normally projecting mage. That was part one of the central parts of my arguement that the text was seriously unclear. The are much better written sections that put the Astral Combat section into better relief.

The rest of it yes. Same stuff I meant just much better defined. I was forgetting than bone lacing added body dice as well as armor. I swear logic got chucked on this one and bent over for game balance. What PC capable of dual nature has thast much cyber/bio anyway? Besides SURGED of course.