The hallmark of the close quarters adept: Killing Hands. But how exactly does this power work in the world of Shadowrun. Is it a transfer of destructive energy, like some sort of anti-reiki, or something more along the lines of the Tae Kwon Do/Karate practice of punching through people, like the late Mas Oyama, who killed three bulls with his bare hands.
So, fellow dumpshockers, what's your take on Killing Hands?
Full Version: Killin' Hands
All of the above. It works the same way a combat spell works - inflicting (enhancing) damage with magic. It really depends on the Adept in question, and how the Adept views their powers and how they function.
The actual effect is independant of the way the adept visualizes it working. You can imagine the magic makes your hands as hard as steel, or that a jolt of deadly astral energy weaves into your opponent's aura, or that you hit them at the exact point where they break. Any or all of them could be true, or not--the effect is the same.
I've had a character who made bone spurs pop out from his hands; I've done a lot of the traditional "green glowing energy", and at least one who did them as nerve strikes. Oh, and an experimental character who thought it was a result of his orichalcum bone lacing.
my favorite is my tech-oriented adept who uses killing hands + distance strike to create laser beams, micro-rockets, and other staples of mecha anime.
When my groups plays, and someone does the Killing Hands + Distance Strike we go with the Ryu/Ken fireball thing...just for some flare. I think we let him learn it easier because it was always so visible....hmm.
I've always pictured it as using your own energy/aura to inflict more damage with a punch. Which is why you can choose not to fully annihilate an opponent and just do normal unarmed damage. Here's the question, though: Does it work while you're wearing shock gloves?
| QUOTE (Kayne) |
| The hallmark of the close quarters adept: Killing Hands. But how exactly does this power work in the world of Shadowrun. Is it a transfer of destructive energy, like some sort of anti-reiki, or something more along the lines of the Tae Kwon Do/Karate practice of punching through people, like the late Mas Oyama, who killed three bulls with his bare hands. So, fellow dumpshockers, what's your take on Killing Hands? |
In the real world, it's all about knowledge. If you know where and how to hit someone, it's really not that hard to kill them. Chop to the throat, throw them down on their head, etc. Breaking bones and causing internal damage is also not that hard, if you know what to do. You can also generate alot of more energy than you realize, if you have the knowledge of how to do it.
My view of killing hands is that the adpet knows how and where to attack their opponenet, which would mean that a well trained non-adpet should be able to strike with as much efficiency as anyone else, but that's not SR.
Since this is a game about magic, I'll conceed they generate larger amounts of magical energy to "stregnthen" their attacks making strikes hit harder. Also, since mellee combat isn't just "one" attack, I like think of killing hands as series/combination of magically enhanced attakcs (quicker, stronger, etc.) making for a more lethal result.As a side note...
I don't have the Cannon Companion book, but I thought that this would be a great way to mimic "Killing Hands" like techniques for the rest of us.
Let folks who have martial arts skills choose "Techniques" or "Combinations" that would much more menacing that just (STR)M. Much like a Mana Bolt, let them choose the "Damage Level" of the attack, would require some sort of Skill Test to see if they do it and how well. Maybe a secondary skill or something, but you can know Martial Arts without having any prior HTH experience.
I know that higher degree folks are more consistant with technique than lower rankings folks, so maybe just more dice, or variable TN's or something to reflect skill level.
Just some thoughts.
I'm all for allowing people to choose a special effect for ther killing hands, as long as it is always on. Just be sure you tell them that when they choose.
If someone in my game takes an obvious power like that I allow that to fulfill a gaesa too. It is after a pretty decent disadvantage compared to someone that can do it stealthily.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| If someone in my game takes an obvious power like that I allow that to fulfill a gaesa too. It is after a pretty decent disadvantage compared to someone that can do it stealthily. |
Oh good point BitBasher. I hadn't thought of it like that!
Personally, I had always though of Killing Hands as not obvious until you get a right-cross on the chin and try and soak 8S Physical Damage.
I agree. If killing hands was just a matter of knowing where to hit, someone could take that as a knowledge skill or something. to me, it's all about the adept putting some serious magical hurtin' on some poor schmuck.
| QUOTE (Smiley) |
| I agree. If killing hands was just a matter of knowing where to hit, someone could take that as a knowledge skill or something. to me, it's all about the adept putting some serious magical hurtin' on some poor schmuck. |
Well that's my point more or less I suppose.
I notice alot of the Adept Powers often state the adept moves faster than their mundane counterparts, maybe this works the same way. You strike so fast and hard the bad guys don't know what hit'em.
Cannon aside, many martial arts skills are quick deadly an effective, some attacks more viscious than others. I was trying to think how to model that in SR while keeping in mind Killing Hands and how it operates.
Knowing where to strike and how hard is included in your skill. If you have unarmed at 2, you know that you clout someone until they fall down. If you have Wildcat at 12, you know all the little points and nerves to strike. My opinion, anyway.
The way I view Killing Hands is that the adept is able to generate and focus a tremendous magical burst of ki energy that even the most dedicated martial arts "mundane" master is unable to match. This magical energy is generated internally with no outward displays (which doesn't mean I am opposed to them, or taking a geasa with them, you can have the theme music from Mortal Combat emanate from the adept every time he uses killing hands for all I care. Why limit effects to just visual ones?). I like to think of it as a killing "vibration" that the adept adds to whatever kinetic energy he is able to generate in his mundane strike. If you see my point here you will notice that the power level of an adept's strike is a completely separate issue from his Killing Hands ability.
The best way I can explain this is that the magical energy of an adept in combat is kind of gathered and stored in the adept's midsection where it builds until the adept attempts a strike. A strike generates kinetic energy as power is generated in the midsection, transferred to the hips, to the shoulder, to the arm, and then released on contact with the target. When the adept strikes the magical energy creates a deadly vibration to this mundane kinetic energy of the adept's strike. Not every adept has the same strength so trying to link Killing Hands to the power of an attack makes no sense at all.
If you follow what I am saying, the power level of an adept's strike is not what Killing Hands effects. It is the damage level only. Similar to a radio wave broadcast, the adept is able generate a magical killing vibration to tune the power of the broadcast/punch into something that kills the listener/target. This would explain why a strength 3 adept is not as likely to make a kill as a strength 6 adept is. Killing Hands ability only adds a certain kill frequency or vibration to a strike, it has absolutely nothing to do with the power level of the strike. A radio station can increase the wattage of it's transmission to generate a much more powerful signal, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the frequency of the signal. Same thing as an adept's Killing Hands ability. In this way adepts of different physical strengths can create different powered Killing Hands attacks. Otherwise it is my opinion that the developers would have made each Killing Hands attack do a set amount of damage.
This means that Bone Lacing and Hard Liner Gloves would add to a Killing Hands attack. Those items, for whatever reason, add to the power of unarmed attacks. Killing Hands does not affect power level. It affects damage level only, so it is separate. And if you didn't allow Bone Lacing or Hard Liner Gloves to add to the power level of a killing hands attack how could you justify Muscle Augmentation or the bioware equivalent either? Or Enhance Attribute, Strength spell when Improved Reaction is not stackable with reaction enhancing spells either, for example?
I think the best way to play it is to keep the power level a separate issue. Nowhere in the spell does it say power level is a factor.
This brings up Delayed Damage. If an adept is able to just touch the target then no physical force was generated. I would argue that it is then a mental stat that is used to generate the power of the attack. I would say Willpower. At least with the "obvious" Delayed Damage version the physical energy was generated and transferred to the target. Same with Distance Strike. The way I play it is the adept has to sort of shadow box thru the motion of an attack exactly as he would to make a normal attack in order to be able to send the physical energy into the air towards the target. If not then it is a mental attribute that should be used as the base power of the attack.
The best way I can explain this is that the magical energy of an adept in combat is kind of gathered and stored in the adept's midsection where it builds until the adept attempts a strike. A strike generates kinetic energy as power is generated in the midsection, transferred to the hips, to the shoulder, to the arm, and then released on contact with the target. When the adept strikes the magical energy creates a deadly vibration to this mundane kinetic energy of the adept's strike. Not every adept has the same strength so trying to link Killing Hands to the power of an attack makes no sense at all.
If you follow what I am saying, the power level of an adept's strike is not what Killing Hands effects. It is the damage level only. Similar to a radio wave broadcast, the adept is able generate a magical killing vibration to tune the power of the broadcast/punch into something that kills the listener/target. This would explain why a strength 3 adept is not as likely to make a kill as a strength 6 adept is. Killing Hands ability only adds a certain kill frequency or vibration to a strike, it has absolutely nothing to do with the power level of the strike. A radio station can increase the wattage of it's transmission to generate a much more powerful signal, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the frequency of the signal. Same thing as an adept's Killing Hands ability. In this way adepts of different physical strengths can create different powered Killing Hands attacks. Otherwise it is my opinion that the developers would have made each Killing Hands attack do a set amount of damage.
This means that Bone Lacing and Hard Liner Gloves would add to a Killing Hands attack. Those items, for whatever reason, add to the power of unarmed attacks. Killing Hands does not affect power level. It affects damage level only, so it is separate. And if you didn't allow Bone Lacing or Hard Liner Gloves to add to the power level of a killing hands attack how could you justify Muscle Augmentation or the bioware equivalent either? Or Enhance Attribute, Strength spell when Improved Reaction is not stackable with reaction enhancing spells either, for example?
I think the best way to play it is to keep the power level a separate issue. Nowhere in the spell does it say power level is a factor.
This brings up Delayed Damage. If an adept is able to just touch the target then no physical force was generated. I would argue that it is then a mental stat that is used to generate the power of the attack. I would say Willpower. At least with the "obvious" Delayed Damage version the physical energy was generated and transferred to the target. Same with Distance Strike. The way I play it is the adept has to sort of shadow box thru the motion of an attack exactly as he would to make a normal attack in order to be able to send the physical energy into the air towards the target. If not then it is a mental attribute that should be used as the base power of the attack.
indeed. however, i don't have a problem with an adept who explains his killing hands as being a greater knowledge of pressure points and weak spots, etcetera. the fluff for killing hands is whatever you want it to be.
Well said mfb. It is just fluff.
I wouldn't get my panties in a bunch thinking the players are munchkins just because the team's phys ad put on a pair of Hardliners for an extra +1 power level to his punches when he goes out in his Vashon Island suit.
I wouldn't get my panties in a bunch thinking the players are munchkins just because the team's phys ad put on a pair of Hardliners for an extra +1 power level to his punches when he goes out in his Vashon Island suit.
I'd get my panties in a bunch because those gloves don't go with that suit!
~J
~J
What if they're TRES CHIC hardliners?
Cast a Fashion 6 on that pair of Shockgloves and they are soooo tres chic...
That's why a Tailor contact comes in handy.
-Siege
-Siege
Once gave some PCs I was GMing a contact in the form of a mall custom-hat kiosk guy-- the guy who runs one of those stands with the automated stitching machines and all the different colored threads.
"You want a Mitsuhama subsidiary's corporate security logo? Okay. On what color shirt. Okay. Come back in an hour."
"You want a Mitsuhama subsidiary's corporate security logo? Okay. On what color shirt. Okay. Come back in an hour."
For me, it's similar to what Rory has said, the main thing is that I feel that it's based on magic (or ki or chi or whatever your religion/theories/belief calls it, heck call it spirit energy) flows from your body to the point of contact thereby causing that extra damage to the target. There's no obvious physical effect by an adept with killing hands.
The main reason why I would hesistate from going in the pressure point theory is because the killing hands affect on animals and non-living things. Pressure point for that hellhound? Maybe it's known/published somewhere. The pressure point working on something that's already dead... well, nerve strike already says that it doesn't work if I recall correctly. That's my input on the killin' hands discussion.
The main reason why I would hesistate from going in the pressure point theory is because the killing hands affect on animals and non-living things. Pressure point for that hellhound? Maybe it's known/published somewhere. The pressure point working on something that's already dead... well, nerve strike already says that it doesn't work if I recall correctly. That's my input on the killin' hands discussion.
| QUOTE (RangerJoe) |
| Once gave some PCs I was GMing a contact in the form of a mall custom-hat kiosk guy-- the guy who runs one of those stands with the automated stitching machines and all the different colored threads. "You want a Mitsuhama subsidiary's corporate security logo? Okay. On what color shirt. Okay. Come back in an hour." |
Heh, reminds me about the time I went to Chinatown in NYC with a coworker. She was perusing the purses at a hole in the wall shop. She picks out a black purse and the guy at the counter asks what kind she wants it to be, 'Gucci? Prada?'. He whips out a bag full of logos and in seconds attaches the logo she wanted onto the purse.
Killing Hands is like in the Last Dragon...he's got the power of the glow baby. SHOGUN OF HARLEM!
*sings to himself*
:::You are the last master... only you possess the power of the golden glow...:::
:::You are the last master... only you possess the power of the golden glow...:::
*Slaps Scamp*
None of that you.
None of that you.
| QUOTE (FlakJacket) |
| *Slaps Scamp* None of that you. |
Now soak 4 Deadly......
I am Leroy, the Last Master! My arms are all glowy and leave trails when I move them! Ernie Reyes Jr. is my little buddy!
YOU CAN NOT HARM ME!!
YOU CAN NOT HARM ME!!
Sho 'nuff!
I gotta confess, from a conceptual point of view, Adepts are my favourite type of character and, as such, I've made a few in my time.
That being the case, I've (obviously) included other aspects I find appealing, and one is the idea of the Shamanic Mask.
Now, it's been argued before that, wheras the Shamanic/Idolator paths have these visible manifestations of magical power, Hermeticism seems not to. I always try to work some sort of analogue for this into Hermetics in my games, and I extend it to PhysAds too.
Now, just like a Shaman's Mask can (theoretically) be anything, the same applies to Adepts. You want a "burning fists of fury" concept? It's yours. It's just an illusion of the eye, anyway. You want to have glowing chop-sokky hands? Go right ahead. As mfb said, it's just fluff.
It does beg the question, though, "how much do I charge my players for elemental effects to accompany the manifestation?" like the risk of setting things on fire in my first example...
That being the case, I've (obviously) included other aspects I find appealing, and one is the idea of the Shamanic Mask.
Now, it's been argued before that, wheras the Shamanic/Idolator paths have these visible manifestations of magical power, Hermeticism seems not to. I always try to work some sort of analogue for this into Hermetics in my games, and I extend it to PhysAds too.
Now, just like a Shaman's Mask can (theoretically) be anything, the same applies to Adepts. You want a "burning fists of fury" concept? It's yours. It's just an illusion of the eye, anyway. You want to have glowing chop-sokky hands? Go right ahead. As mfb said, it's just fluff.
It does beg the question, though, "how much do I charge my players for elemental effects to accompany the manifestation?" like the risk of setting things on fire in my first example...
What like burning fists O'doom? +.5 to the power cost, and it takes a simple action to activate the power now. Cannon Example in Brainscan.
been there, done that. though i have it on good authority that much of that page will be superceded by SOTA:64...
| QUOTE (TheScamp) |
| *sings to himself* :::You are the last master... only you possess the power of the golden glow...::: |
Bah. The best example of Killing Hands, especially with Delay Damage, is obviously Hokuto no Ken.
"You are already dead."
*SPLAT*
Infidel.
It can't be the best example, if nobody has ever heard of it. Anime is also not allowed, because that's too easy
KISS MY CONVERSE!
KISS MY CONVERSE!
| QUOTE (Bigity @ Aug 26 2004, 09:30 AM) |
It can't be the best example, if nobody has ever heard of it. Anime is also not allowed, because that's too easy  KISS MY CONVERSE! |
Hakuto no Ken is more commonly known as Fist of the North Star. I'm sure many have heard of it.
At any rate, if anime is too easy there is always the American live-action movie.
Really, you can't best a series that can honestly claim to have more exploding heads than any other series in the history of television.
Too over the top for me
What about Remo Williams?
What about Remo Williams?
| QUOTE (Bigity) |
| Too over the top for me What about Remo Williams? |
I once tried to make an NPC remo. He'd be sightly over middle age in the SR timeframe. It using Becks took nearly 2000 karma for the necessary initiations and required a new adept power for bullet dodging. He could only possibly be killed by exploiting his severe alergy to processed food and if he were the killer wouldn't survive long. Shiva must be, at least, a Force 1000 Free Spirit.
Remo Williams could destroy anything in Shadowrun with one hand tied behing his back.
But, he doesn't have any cool visual effects.
Mmmmm Adept Path of the Sunanju!
Koreans are just higher humans than the rest ...
Btw. Where's the need for a special adept power for dodging bullets?
Take appitude (athletics) as edge ... Take Quick strike and increased ability (athletics) as powers plus skill athletics (dodging) ... Rest of the powers into apropriate melee prowess
Use quick strike in combat, use first action to do an athletics test vs. TN 3 and gain a lot of dice for just dodging purposes. Repeat process until you're with melee range ... then quick strike and simply nail the target ...
In later stages concentate on increasing initiative to have more initiative passes where the dodging dice can be "refreshed" to compensate the fact taht boosted sammies simply running down your combat pool in multible attacks within one combat turn before your next combat phase is reached ...
Works perfectly on the scale presented in "Remo: Unarmed and Dangerous" ...
Won't help against heavy machine gun fire or explosves ... But that would even have killed Chiun
Btw. Where's the need for a special adept power for dodging bullets?
Take appitude (athletics) as edge ... Take Quick strike and increased ability (athletics) as powers plus skill athletics (dodging) ... Rest of the powers into apropriate melee prowess
Use quick strike in combat, use first action to do an athletics test vs. TN 3 and gain a lot of dice for just dodging purposes. Repeat process until you're with melee range ... then quick strike and simply nail the target ...
In later stages concentate on increasing initiative to have more initiative passes where the dodging dice can be "refreshed" to compensate the fact taht boosted sammies simply running down your combat pool in multible attacks within one combat turn before your next combat phase is reached ...
Works perfectly on the scale presented in "Remo: Unarmed and Dangerous" ...
Won't help against heavy machine gun fire or explosves ... But that would even have killed Chiun
| QUOTE (Cochise @ Aug 26 2004, 11:03 AM) |
| Koreans are just higher humans than the rest ... Btw. Where's the need for a special adept power for dodging bullets? Take appitude (athletics) as edge ... Take Quick strike and increased ability (athletics) as powers plus skill athletics (dodging) ... Rest of the powers into apropriate melee prowess Use quick strike in combat, use first action to do an athletics test vs. TN 3 and gain a lot of dice for just dodging purposes. Repeat process until you're with melee range ... then quick strike and simply nail the target ... In later stages concentate on increasing initiative to have more initiative passes where the dodging dice can be "refreshed" to compensate the fact taht boosted sammies simply running down your combat pool in multible attacks within one combat turn before your next combat phase is reached ... Works perfectly on the scale presented in "Remo: Unarmed and Dangerous" ... Won't help against heavy machine gun fire or explosves ... But that would even have killed Chiun |
Unfortunatly, "Remo: Unarmed and Dangerous" only dealt with the early stages of his training. Somewhere around book 80, Remo casualy walks through a mine field, setpping on every mine in his path without taking any damage, because he knows exactly where to stand in order to avoid the effects of that particular type of anti-personel mine. Its one of the many reasons why it is simply insane to have Runners who are trained in Sinanju.
Question on all this Killing hands talk
Soft Hands Malloy the french assassin has Killing hands D and delay damage.
He shakes hands with you, and givesyou a friendly kiss on the cheek in greeting and walks away
You're wearing body armor of whichever kind.
He decides to activate his delayed strike. Do you resist the power of the blow taking the armor into consideratin, or do you ignore armor because he touched your hand and cheek instead of your armored chest?
Soft Hands Malloy the french assassin has Killing hands D and delay damage.
He shakes hands with you, and givesyou a friendly kiss on the cheek in greeting and walks away
You're wearing body armor of whichever kind.
He decides to activate his delayed strike. Do you resist the power of the blow taking the armor into consideratin, or do you ignore armor because he touched your hand and cheek instead of your armored chest?
Hmm, I would say unless Soft Hands did some extra rp stuff to get inside the armor I still get to reduce the power.
He would have liked to have hit "silent exploding hypothalamus point number 4" but instead was forced to choose "fisher's slow blood clotting zone" because it is more accessible through my armor, though somewhat less powerfull... or whatever.
If he rp'd me into giving him a hug, or gave me a chair massage though he gets to ignore the armor.
He would have liked to have hit "silent exploding hypothalamus point number 4" but instead was forced to choose "fisher's slow blood clotting zone" because it is more accessible through my armor, though somewhat less powerfull... or whatever.
If he rp'd me into giving him a hug, or gave me a chair massage though he gets to ignore the armor.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Unfortunatly, "Remo: Unarmed and Dangerous" only dealt with the early stages of his training. |
So what? So far the movie was the main concern, wasn't it?
| QUOTE |
| Somewhere around book 80, Remo casualy walks through a mine field, setpping on every mine in his path without taking any damage, because he knows exactly where to stand in order to avoid the effects of that particular type of anti-personel mine. |
Actually it bothers me that he sets them off in the first place ...
One of the "bigger" things of Remo is the "traceless walk" thingy that Chiun even allows to walk on water.
| QUOTE |
| Its one of the many reasons why it is simply insane to have Runners who are trained in Sinanju. |
Who said it had to be a 100% copy of Remo (or Chiun for that matter)?
All I know is that there needs to be a power for quickly unloading someone else's weapon.
Chun (sp?) has the best quotes from any movie period. --"Other then the fact he was cursed by not being born Korean, I am not wholly displeased."
Chun (sp?) has the best quotes from any movie period. --"Other then the fact he was cursed by not being born Korean, I am not wholly displeased."
| QUOTE (Bigity) |
| All I know is that there needs to be a power for quickly unloading someone else's weapon. |
Just a little variation of the "Disarming" combat option ...
Instead of merely knocking it off the opponents hand, have "Remo" unload it
| QUOTE |
| He decides to activate his delayed strike. |
Nitpick: Delayed Damage doesn't work that way. You choose at the time of the strike the time it will take effect, between now and 24 hours from now. You can't activate it remotely by command.
no it's not Bitbasher.
The person who did the delayed strikes 'sustains' the action. They can later at anytime choose to activate it, or dissipate it.
The person who did the delayed strikes 'sustains' the action. They can later at anytime choose to activate it, or dissipate it.
That's a different interpretation of activating / deactivating a power.
BitBasher obviously refers to it as: 1. activate power, 2. do attack and insert charge, 3. deactivate power after sustaining time => victim suffers damage ...
You however seem to refer to is as: 1. do attack and insert magical charge, 2. sustain charge, 3. activate charge => victim suffers damage ...
BitBasher obviously refers to it as: 1. activate power, 2. do attack and insert charge, 3. deactivate power after sustaining time => victim suffers damage ...
You however seem to refer to is as: 1. do attack and insert magical charge, 2. sustain charge, 3. activate charge => victim suffers damage ...
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