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Ninj
Hi. My character is thinking about taking an initiation ordeal of familiar and I wanted to know if the familiar/ally spirit can learn metamagic techniques; assuming you set aside enough karma for the familiar to do an initiation.

Is this possible and if so how do you guys handle it??
Ecclesiastes
Not that I know of. It can learn spells and skills, but I think thats it.
SentineloftheMountain
Yeah. It doesn't explicitly say in MITS whether or not an ally spirit can learn a metamagic technique or not.

Can an Ally spirit take an initiation I guess is the real question assuming they have enough karma??
Cain
No. No kind of spirit can initiate. Free spirits can theoretically learn new powers by increasing their Force, but that's it.
snowRaven
Unrelated, but interesting question:

Free Spirits can teach metamagical techniques, by canon. How come they cannot use those techniques as well? (Or can they?)
Herald of Verjigorm
Free spirits can teach metamagic techniques similar to powers they know.

Prime example: Masking

If you happen to have a free spirit of significance, you may be able to negotiate the GM into letting it take a metamagic-like power when it increases it's force.
snowRaven
Well, yes. In MITS on pg.70 it says that Free Spirits can teach metamagics similar to their powers, as follows:
Free Spirit with Aura Masking can teach Masking.
Free Spirit with Possession can teach Possessing.
Free Spirit with Divination can teach Divining.
Any free spirit can teach Invoking (but charges double for it, usually).
Free Spirit with Sorcery can teach Quickening, Shielding and Reflecting. But nowhere does it say that their Sorcery power allows them to use the benefits of those techniques. If they can teach it, they should be able to use it, right?
Backgammon
QUOTE (snowRaven)
Well, yes. In MITS on pg.70 it says that Free Spirits can teach metamagics similar to their powers, as follows:
Free Spirit with Aura Masking can teach Masking.
Free Spirit with Possession can teach Possessing.
Free Spirit with Divination can teach Divining.
Any free spirit can teach Invoking (but charges double for it, usually).
Free Spirit with Sorcery can teach Quickening, Shielding and Reflecting. But nowhere does it say that their Sorcery power allows them to use the benefits of those techniques. If they can teach it, they should be able to use it, right?

That's a very, very scary thought.
BitBasher
QUOTE
If they can teach it, they should be able to use it, right?
That's not necessarily sound logic, although it may look like it on the surface. A mundane human can teach spell design and create spell formula despite not being able to cast a spell. being able to teach something does not necessarily mean you can do it at all.
Herald of Verjigorm
[Warning, untested hause rule ahead, proceed at your PCs' risk!]

Considering they need to get three powers to use sorcery in full, let them use any metamagic based off each specialization once they have seen it in use.

Not sure how this gets messed up with freed ally spirits, but it shouldn't be too bad with other free spirits. With sorcery, a spirit has the potential to quicken spells, but doesn't neccessarily know that it can until it has seen how easy the process is. With this variant of the rule, the GM can be even pickier about what metamagics you can learn from a free spirit, and can make a free spirit match your advantages as long as it survives one encounter that you use them.
SentineloftheMountain
But can an ally spirit learn new metamagic techniques; either through an initiation or from another free spirit??
BitBasher
QUOTE (SentineloftheMountain)
But can an ally spirit learn new metamagic techniques; either through an initiation or from another free spirit??

Not by the rules IIRC.
Dashifen
I've always allowed ally spirits to learn metamagic techniques that were based on a skill -- centering, divination, etc. These techniques, as I see them, are taught to the initiate by the group or, for a self-initiation, by a process of self-discovery. As a result, the initiate could now teach them to others, including their ally.
snowRaven
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE
If they can teach it, they should be able to use it, right?
That's not necessarily sound logic, although it may look like it on the surface. A mundane human can teach spell design and create spell formula despite not being able to cast a spell. being able to teach something does not necessarily mean you can do it at all.

Very true, Bitbasher - but all the other examples require the spirit to have practical knowledge of the technique, and for Shielding, Reflecting and Quickening they have to have the Sorcery power. Now, if it was just their existance as spirits that did it, there would be no requirement on having a certain power. If it was simply theoretical know-how, the power itself shouldn't be necessary either. The spirit should be able to learn how to teach this without knowing how to cast spells - after all, Shielding has very little to do with spellcasting (yes, I know - it requires Sorcery skill. But a spirit could have the power Magical Guard and innately know how to do exactly the same thing (Spell Defense) as they know by having Sorcery.

Also, your example isn't the best one. A mundane can create spell formula, yes, by having the Spell Design skill. Yes, they can teach others Spell Design. But this isn't teaching them something they can't do themselves.
Teaching Conjuring or Sorcery, however, requires the skill in question - a skill mundanes can only have as a background skill. I'm not entirely sure, but canon-wise I think a teacher cannot teach someone how to use an active skill simply by having the Background skill. I might be wrong though.
In either case, the mundane has to have a skill (active or background) in order to teach how to use that skill.
Grimtooth
I have a physical shaman character that i may want to take the familiar ordeal with.

If using the ordeal it says that the mage does not lose a point of magic for creating the ally.

What would the magic rating of the physical shaman be after the ordeal and initiation?

would it be 6 or 7?

If its 7 could the physical part of the mix pick up more adept powers?

Just curious how this would work.
Cain
QUOTE (Grimtooth)
What would the magic rating of the physical shaman be after the ordeal and initiation?

would it be 6 or 7?

If its 7 could the physical part of the mix pick up more adept powers?

7 and yes. While by canon Physmages are more restricted in their initiation choices, he can choose to gain a power point which can be spent on any adept ability, including his special ability of Magical Power.
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