Espiritu
Aug 31 2004, 12:11 AM
In MITS there is a Path of the Magician where an Adept at creation spends Power points to aquire magical abilities as a Hermetic or Shamanistic Magician.
My question is based on that rule on Pg 22 of MITS. They can't access Astral Projection unless purchased as an Adept power nor can they pay 20 Karma to get more Power points. Can anyone sugest a potential way for a Full Magician to purchase into Adept powers following a similar concept after character creation?
This is in regards to my character suddenly turning into a Drake and I want to give him a little physical focus on the Drake Form as apposed to the Magical nature of my metahuman form.
Several ideas I have is that the Adept powers could only be accessible in Drake Form or that I could simply go with Initiation buying me a Power Point like Adepts normally do it...but this completely breaks the Path of the Magician and provides my way as more advantageous which is bad because I DO Astrally Project already.
This could have worked if I had known I was going to be a Drake before hand, but I didn't so I couldn't start on the Path of the Magician....now can someone help me develope a Path of the Adept? ^_^
Backgammon
Aug 31 2004, 12:48 AM
If I understand correctly, you want a Mage to buy Adept powers. Well, according to the rules, you can't. Anything aside from that, you'll have to work out with your GM.
Espiritu
Aug 31 2004, 12:50 AM
Figured...you'd think they would have put something out there for the eventuality. Thanks.
Herald of Verjigorm
Aug 31 2004, 01:32 AM
Magicians way adepts can't buy astral projection, and need to buy astral perception to use it unless dual natured.
IIRC, drakes are already dual natured, so you don't need to buy astral perception.
The 20 karma for a power point is overruled by the initiation rules, also in MitS.
What, exactly, are you trying to do that you don't think you can?
Espiritu
Aug 31 2004, 01:48 AM
Based on the Magicians Way for Adepts I don't see a proper conversion to providing an already Shadowrunning Full Magician, PhysAdept Powers after the fact.
Magicans Way Adepts can't under any circumstances purchase Astral Projection?
I am trying to find any means possible to giving a Full Magician, PhysAdept powers after character generation.
Siege
Aug 31 2004, 01:52 AM
You can't, period.
Magic is a matter of birth - you're born (created) as one of the following:
- Physical Adept
- Hermetic Mage
- Shaman
- Aspected mage/shaman
- Magician Way Adept (Physical Mage)
By canon, you cannot acquire magical powers in mid-game. You could buy magical powers at creation and have them "manifest" during the story, if you wanted to simulate a PC suddenly Awakening.
-Siege
Kanada Ten
Aug 31 2004, 01:54 AM
Well, if you limit it to Drake form only, you might convince your GM that they amount to Innate paracritter powers. I don't think it's unreasonable to say 20 Karma per Adept Power point. However, as a GM I would rule these are feral, instinctual powers that supersede Magical abilities (meaning I wouldn't let you cast spells in Drake form).
Magical Adepts cannot Astrally Project without an Astral Rift or Portal.
Nemo
Aug 31 2004, 06:57 AM
Not only Drake magican Adepts get Astral Perception by their Dual Nature, Shapeshifters and Ghouls do the same. But Drake Magican Adepts are the only ones that can use Astral Projection like full Magicans (as PC's), Shapeshifters and Ghouls can do so only as NPC's (p.5 Critters)
Espiritu
Aug 31 2004, 02:51 PM
Nemo can you site from what pages you read that Drakes can Astral Project as Adepts?
Was it in the critters book?
Sphynx
Sep 1 2004, 09:47 AM
Espiritu: Check out my
Submission to TSS. It gives my alternative Build Point system. Probably a little late to use now, but you can do a Path of the Adept through it rather easily.
Sphynx
Nemo
Sep 1 2004, 10:51 AM
@Espiritu
On Page 5 of the Critters is stated that a Dual-natured being with Magical Skills is able of Astral Projection. A Drake in Drake-form is Dual-natured, and if he is a magican Adept (or any other form of not full magican) he qualify for that (as a NPC, PC's are no Critters), and in Dot6W or Threats 2 it is said that any magical active Drake can astrally project in either Form (Human and Drake)
Moon-Hawk
Sep 1 2004, 12:17 PM
Your ideas intrigue me. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
You're gonna need to give us a page number on that last bit, I think.
Man, if this works, how could I have missed it?
Espiritu
Sep 1 2004, 04:16 PM
QUOTE |
Espiritu: Check out my Submission to TSS. It gives my alternative Build Point system. Probably a little late to use now, but you can do a Path of the Adept through it rather easily. |
Can someone take a string of text out of that forum he linked to and post it for me here? So I can Google it and find the "cached" part of the forum entry.
My work blocks some sites as "games".
Thanks! That or I wait until I get home.
Yea I looked into the critters book. Seems sorta vague as to what magical potential consitutes...
Kanada Ten
Sep 1 2004, 04:23 PM
Here you go:
[ Spoiler ]
Replacement Rules for Magic
It is recommended that starting characters be limited to a maximum of 25% of starting Building Points to be spent on Magic during character creation (including Building Points gained from purchasing Flaws).
Magical Ability Cost: 5
This is the basis of all Magic, to perform magic in any manner at all, even for the simplest things such as Astral Perception, you must first buy this. Once purchased, the following categories are also available for purchase. You start with 1 Magic Point that may be raised with the Magic Point option listed below.
Magic Cost: 1 per level
Every level of it gives you an increase to your Magic attribute by 1 point. This may only be bought to a Magic Rating of 6, any further increases require the Initiation listed below. Any loss of Essence at Character Generation, such as Cyberware installation will reduce your Magic Rating by the amount of Essence lost.
Magic Points Cost: 1 per level
This gives the purchaser a number of Karma points to bond foci, learn spells, conjure starting spirits, initiate and any other magical purchase where Karma is used to purchase. The number of Magic Points gained in this manner is 5 per level, maximum of 50 points.
Astral Perception Cost: 2
Astral Projection Cost: 3
To purchase Astral Projection you must first purchase Astral Perception. A Dual Natured player does not need to purchase Astral Perception for this purchase.
Mana Manipulation: 2
This allows you to purchase levels in Conjuring and Sorcery as fits your character. Without this purchase you may not purchase even the first levels in those abilities. You must choose a tradition upon purchase such as Shamanic or Hermetic. This is all you need to be able to use Enchanting type skills.
Sorcery Cost: 1, 2 or 4
If you have purchased the Mana Manipulation listed above, you may take multiple levels in this Power. This purchase is available in 3 levels. The first level is the most rudimentary level with the basic understanding of Magic allowing a player's character to use his Sorcery and Spell Pool for Defense Dice, Dispelling and other non-casting uses of Sorcery, such as teaching an Ally Spirit. The 2nd level allows the player's character to cast spells from only 1 category. Any character with a Shamanic Totem may purchase the 2nd level to be allowed to cast spells from their totem which may include more than one category, the Totem disadvantages compensate for the additional categories. The 3rd level allows a player to cast spells from any category.
Conjuring Cost: 1, 2 or 4
If you have purchased the Mana Manipulation listed above, you may take multiple levels in this Power. This purchase is available in 3 levels. The first level includes the most basic understanding of conjuring spirits allowing a person to conjure Watchers and Banish spirits. The 2nd level is the minimum allowed to conjure an Ally. At the 2nd level the character may conjure one type of spirit from their tradition. As with Sorcery, any character with a Shamanic Totem may purchase the 2nd level to be allowed to conjure spirits from their totem which may include more than one category, the Totem disadvantages compensate for the additional categories. The 3rd level allows a character to conjure any spirit type of their tradition. This can also be purchased to conjure spirit types outside of your tradition at double the cost as it would be to conjure the same number of categories within your tradition. Ie: For 12 BP a Shamanic Type could conjure all 4 Elemental type of spirits.
Mana Focus: 3
This allows you to purchase levels of Adept Magic. Without this purchase, you may not start with any Adept powers.
Adept Magic Cost: 2 to 4 points per level
If you have purchased the Mana Focus listed above, you may take multiple levels in this Power. Each Power Point costs 2 BP up to your Magic Rating. Every point past your Magic Rating costs 4 BP. The Magical Power listed in the book Magic in the Shadows is not available for purchase through this system.
Optional BP Expenditures for games that allow you to start Initiated, instead of spending initial Spell Points on Initiation.
Initiation Cost: 3, 7, 12, 18, 25 points.
Each level of this grants you an extra Magic rating point via Initiation. As a player you may choose if you belong to a group, did ordeals, ignored ordeals, or went solo. Choice does not change the BP cost of Initiation. Each level is incrementally more expensive than the level before it so a GM could easily extend this cost to allow higher initiations by continueing the Increment.
Initiatory Group: 1 point.
This allows a character to start the game already initiated into a group. It does not alter the BP costs for Initiation at Character Generation.
MetaTechnique Cost: 1 point per Tech
This may be purchased up to the level of Initiation one has achieved. Each level grants the character a Meta Technique from the books.
Failed MetaTechnique: -1 point per Tech
This may be purchased up to the level of Initiation one has achieved. Each level prevents the character from ever learning a technique listed in the book.
Resources
BP Nuyen
-5 500
-4 1000
-3 2000
-2 3000
-1 4000
0 5000
1 7500
2 10000
3 12500
4 15000
5 20000
6 30000
7 40000
8 50000
9 70000
10 90000
11 110000
12 130000
13 150000
14 175000
15 200000
16 225000
17 250000
18 300000
19 350000
20 400000
21 450000
22 500000
23 550000
24 600000
25 650000
26 700000
27 750000
28 800000
29 900000
30 1000000
Espiritu
Sep 1 2004, 05:48 PM
That is a wicked design for Building Points, but it didn't really provide any answers to my question. I need a way to have a Magician become Mage Adept without retarding the Magicians previous skills.
You have several logic loops in the system. Like Adept power point costs and Astral Perception. Once you've bought up to your Magic level in Power points they cost 4...well it's cheaper at that point to buy Magic Ability(5) then Astral Perception(2) for 7 total then to buy two Power points past 6 for 4BP each totally 8...they save BP1 with some progressive engineering.
Herald of Verjigorm
Sep 1 2004, 06:38 PM
QUOTE (Espiritu) |
That is a wicked design for Building Points, but it didn't really provide any answers to my question. I need a way to have a Magician become Mage Adept without retarding the Magicians previous skills. |
Try the house-foci that carry adept powers, there's a thread about them somewhere around here.
BitBasher
Sep 1 2004, 07:22 PM
QUOTE (Espiritu) |
That is a wicked design for Building Points, but it didn't really provide any answers to my question. I need a way to have a Magician become Mage Adept without retarding the Magicians previous skills.
You have several logic loops in the system. Like Adept power point costs and Astral Perception. Once you've bought up to your Magic level in Power points they cost 4...well it's cheaper at that point to buy Magic Ability(5) then Astral Perception(2) for 7 total then to buy two Power points past 6 for 4BP each totally 8...they save BP1 with some progressive engineering. |
There are NO canon rules to do that, so either you use house rules, or it's illegal. That is all.
Nemo
Sep 2 2004, 06:45 AM
@Espiritu
The Proof of the Drake Magician Adepts ability to astrally project are:
Dot6W p.184, Section "Metahuman Form", second paragraph, third sentence
" Drakes with magical skills can also astrally project like magicians in either humanoid or dragon form."
also
Same page, Section "Drake Abilities", first sentence
"As awakened creatures, drakes have certain innate magical abilities, which generally work as given in Shadowrun, Third Edition and Critters."
Same page, Section "Metahuman Form", second paragraph, first sentence
"Drakes in dracoform are dual beings,..."
Critters, p.5, Section "Dual Beings", third paragraph, first and second sentence
"Dual beings with magical skills are capable of astral projection. They can separate their astral bodies, just as do full magicians."
Dot6W p.184, Section "Magical Skills", first paragraph, last sentence
"Drakes with the ability to astrally project can do so in either form."
Threats 2 p.80, Section "Drake Abilities",fourth paragraph, last sentence
"Drakes with the ability to astrally project can do so in either form."
Conclusion: Magician Adepts posses magical abilities, so a Drake Magician Adept posses the ability of astral projection, in either humanoid and dragon form.
RedmondLarry
Sep 2 2004, 05:16 PM
Nice work, Nemo. Well researched and well pesented.
Espiritu
Sep 2 2004, 05:20 PM
Yes I agree. He PM'ed me but I'll say it again here.
Thanks Nemo, that aided several decisions I was trying to make. And essentially made it easier to decid to "convert" my magical presense as MageAdept. Since by Drake rules I was always a drake and always able to astrally project because of it and by the Path of the Wheel with Mage Adepts I could simply not have purchased any Adept power points yet. And since I'm not initiated yet I havn't broken any rules but those percieved in the background and on my character sheet.
All hail Nemo master of the See (I told you so)!
^_^ Peace.
Moon-Hawk
Sep 2 2004, 07:03 PM
Great work, Nemo. If only we could all post like that.
Of course, then we couldn't argue about we-don't-even-know-what for pages on end, and what fun would that be?
that also goes for adepts with Centering. huzzah!
Nemo
Sep 3 2004, 07:04 AM
@ OurTeam, Moon-Hawk,Espiritu
Thanks
@mfb
Give the Adept Sorcery (only if he has Astral Perception, but that is for Dual beings no problem), than it is without any question. But be aware, that these is only possible for PC-Drakes and NPC-Dual-beings, not for PC-Shapeshifters and PC-Ghouls. The SR-Compendium Third Edition stats for these two, that they can only astrally Project, if they are full magicians.
I'm at work, so I have no access to the books and can't quote.
Edit:
After Rereading the Rules: Only Shapeshifters are the exception of the Rule.
Wireknight
Sep 3 2004, 05:28 PM
In one of the custom metamagic rules systems I've seen, magicians with certain very high prerequisites can learn the metamagic "adeptness", which grants them 1 point of adept powers. They can gain up to 6 points through this, require at least 10 initiate grades to purchase the power, and must have some other fairly high prerequisites.
On the other hand, adeptness may be purchased by an adept who has suffered magic loss due to cyberware, bioware, damage, etc... up to their original base magic rating of 6(i.e. if they lost 2 points they could buy 2) with much lower prerequisites than a magician attempting it.
I think it's an interesting idea.
Siege
Sep 3 2004, 06:20 PM
Level 10 initiates, eh?
-Siege
nemo, Centering is a magical skill. there's no question 'bout that.
Nemo
Sep 6 2004, 06:48 AM
@mfb
That's right, but for sorcery at level 1 you pay 1 Karmapoint, and anyone with Astral Perception can use it for Astral Combat.
right, but sorcery is much less useful for an adept who can perceive and project. who needs sorcery, when you've got kung fu at 6 with 4 Improved Ability die? better to buy up Centering.
Nemo
Sep 6 2004, 07:02 AM
You can buy Sorcery at Chargen, but you can't initiate as an Adept at Chargen.
well, yeah. i tend to take the long view on characters, though. 'sides, you don't need to initiate to take the Centering skill--you just need to be an initiate to use it.
Kanada Ten
Sep 6 2004, 09:39 PM
Actually, that is incorrect. You can take your artistic skill at chargen, but you can't take the required Centering skill (which cannot exceed you artistic skill) until you have the Centering metamagic.
Or maybe not
it never actually says that, in MitS. as i pointed out in a concurrent thread, it actually says that Centering is the reason behind many ancient song and dance traditions--that people learned the Centering skill before there was even magic to Center with. nowhere in MitS does it say you can't learn the Centering skill without having learned the Centering metamagic.
Kanada Ten
Sep 6 2004, 09:45 PM
QUOTE |
that people learned the Centering skill before there was even magic to Center with. |
I disagree with this. Magic always existed in SR; it was just harder to use durning the down cycle. That's why so many of the old magi had to have Centering and Geasa to even use it. But I agree MitS doesn't explicitly forbid it.
RedmondLarry
Sep 7 2004, 11:10 PM
Our team has always played that the magician can not learn the Centering skill until after gaining the Centering Metamagic Technique. Yes, we do allow the character to start with the artistic skill.
BitBasher
Sep 7 2004, 11:36 PM
QUOTE (OurTeam) |
Our team has always played...<snip> |
Are you Al Gore now? Talking about yourself in 3rd person?
Kanada Ten
Sep 7 2004, 11:48 PM
QUOTE (BitBasher) |
QUOTE (OurTeam @ Sep 7 2004, 11:10 PM) | Our team has always played...<snip> |
Are you Al Gore now? Talking about yourself in 3rd person? |
OurTeam's been doing that for ages!
Since his first thread.
Espiritu
Sep 10 2004, 02:57 AM
For those who may be interested the final concept is that the Drake and Metahuman will be split personalities. Both will essentially be separate from the other. (The GM will determine which entity is dominant at any given time. It is out of my hands.) The ego's will be completely different but the Superego and Id will remain as relative shadows for the drake. These shadows will be easily overwritten to develope his own morals and ethical backgrounds, wants and desires as if a person who was just let out of a sensory deprivation tank with an Insert key(keyboard) pressed at the beginning of his lifes story.
The metahuman half stays a full magician and the drake half picks up the powers of a physadept. (Though completely untrained, no skills of any kind nor power points assigned.) With a clean unbiased slate so if a mage came along and got the drake magically interested he could likely spend points in Magic Power and take himself down The Magicians Way however unlikely.(To those that argue, he has no basis yet for his development his Path has not been chosen leaving it open to growth.) Initiation affects as dual growth in both sides leaving the alternates choices free, even metamagics are to be separate. Initiation is .5 times more expensive additionally(House ruling.). If anyone has any logical explanation why this can not be please speak up. As magical growth is not delegated to simply knowledge but transcending physical boundaries into cleaner channeling of mana.
Essentially the Drake is going to be free to learn a completely different path of magic. Since being awakened is determined at birth, just the way you manipulate it is learned externally. They will be based off the same physical stats as well and share every other physical attribute as per normal drakes. The drake will be completely skilless to start and must essentially develope separately, except for karma which stays as one pool. Two characters situated in the the same body only vaguely aware of the others proceedings. The only ones to stay are those memories that are ingrained such as people with strong emotional connections, places, and possessions will vaguely be realized, and what the alter was doing just before the change, though not necessarily motivation. Now wether the alter chooses to maintain that path (If it is able to at all.) is up in the wind and hopefully that's not due to being in drake form while flying at several hundred feet.... ^_~
(And out of the pure genius that is my brain, I came up with this idea rather than allowing both halves to remember details about what the other halfs life I went with something far more Rp wise.) So that both sides know what the drek is going on an Ally Spirit is going to be summoned by Espiritu's metahuman half and be used to explain whats up with his other half and vice versa...once he figures out that he "has" another half. (He knows he's a drake but can't ever fully remember what happened.) Hell...he's only changed once and found an animals body shredded around him outside seattle.
Just thought some might find the choice interesting. And wanted to give a big thanks to all who contributed their theories and hard facts. Much of it is still being implemented into this character...like astral projection for the drake-adept. ^_^ Thanks again Nemo!
- Espiritu
RedmondLarry
Sep 10 2004, 04:14 AM
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Sep 7 2004, 06:48 PM) |
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Sep 7 2004, 06:36 PM) | QUOTE (OurTeam @ Sep 7 2004, 11:10 PM) | Our team has always played...<snip> |
Are you Al Gore now? Talking about yourself in 3rd person? |
OurTeam's been doing that for ages! Since his first thread. |
"Our team" refers to the shadowrun gaming group that started playing at my house in Dec 1999.
"OurTeam" is my handle, chosen because I couldn't think of anything cool like you guys have. Someday I'll come up with something better than OurTeam. Also better than "rulelawyer", which I think I might have used briefly on these boards many years ago.
rulelawyer at yahoo dadot com
ourteam at comcast dadot net
/Edit: awww, now I've gone all teary-eyed with nostalgia. The replies to OurTeam on that day were such a wonderful introduction to the people here.
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