It's pretty much a given that the classic role of a physical adept is melee combatant/infiltrator, or something similar. Adepts have access to a wide variety of powers for those purposes, and the SOTA '64 book promises still more. What has always bugged me is why there doesn't seem to be either of the following; an edept power to negate penatlies when fighting an openent with superior reach, an adept power which provides reach. Ignore for a moment what these powers would look like in operation, the question is: would they be gamebreakers?

So you want to make a Dhalsim eh?

Sorry, don't have any impute.

Well, that was one way the power could look in operation, but didn't I say, "ignore what it would look like?"

most adept powers arent fully physical, maybe you could make a power to ignore your targets reach, or something, like close quarters combat?

There's a martial arts manovuer which allows you to move inside an opponent's reach. Reach, in melee combat is tres useful. That's why you see a lot of troll melee asshanders, trolls who learned adept techniques and travel the earth, handing people their assess (A tip of the hat to Penny Arcade). No matter how good a human adept gets, a troll street punk will be able to dictate a reach bonos to hit, or penalty to hit as they please. Isn't the entire purpose of somantic adept to allow the metahuman body perform in superhuman ways through magic, and overcome impossible obstacles?

well i dont use the MA rules inm CC, but there is an adept blindfighting power and a blind fighting maneuver.

just food for thought

Perhaps it could be a sort of "flying leap" power that lets them create the effects of reach due to sheer speed in combat, flying about like a Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon fighter? That would be a somewhat reasonable explanation for getting reach.

It would have to be pretty darn expensive power though, and probably not stack with weapons... can you imagine a psycho adept with three levels of this weilding a monowhip? Gogo reach 5!

JaronK

Yep. I was thinking it'd be quite costly. At low die pools, buying more dice is useful. At high die pools, you're better off with more reach, generally speaking. The power should certainly be costly, and likely have some kind of ceiling. A power point seems fair, if it allows you to *Ignore one point of your oppent's reach* as opposed to actually givng you reach. Actually purchasing a point of mystical reach (however it'd look in action) Should be, what, 2 points? That's up there with Astral Perception. ! point of reach is arugably less powerful and versatile than astral perception, but remeber there are combat monkies out there who care nothing about versatility.

Troll streetpunks get the reach because they're ubar-huge. It's a racial advantage that you give up when you choose to be human or elf. An adept that wandered the earth like Cain from Kung Fu will have beat him skillwise, so even though the troll will have -2 or even -3, he'll be rolling much fewer dice. Besides, if you can't beat a troll streetpunk, don't fight one.

That's my point exactly. An adept has access to all kinds of magic for combat. There's telescoping options for cyberlimbs, to grant reach. An adept's inabilty to purchase reach can eventually become a painful liability.

Distance Strike (MiTS) already lets you ignore reach modifiers when making the unarmed combat test against the target. The result is a 'ranged combat" resistance test made by the defender to resist damage. Not exactly what you're looking for, but food for thought (since it only costs 2 power points)

What I wanna see is the adept power to run on trees, or to hurl oneself into the air by dipping the tip of your sword into a body of water. How come no one has made those powers yet?? Heck, they don't even have the 'run up walls' power.

But ya know, there are enough examples of powers there and what the balance of cost verses gain is to make many of your own up.

Ah, I hadn't thought of distance strike that way. Perhaps then there should be a 1 point power granting +1 reach, and .5 point power negating 1 point of your opponent's reach, in the event that their reach exceeds yours. For 1.5 points total a unarmed human fighting a troll who is armed with a sword will be on "even footing", reachwise. Distance strike remains cool, but someone can negate your distance strike's ability to ignore reach by cleverly moving into melee combat with you. Fancy that, avoiding a deadly Adept's blows by getting *closer*.

Espiritu, you're right. That's what I'm trying to do. Get the input of all these Shadowrun plyers and Gm into what they'd consider well balanced. The great thing is that it won't just be Adept enthusiats who comment. Players of street samurai will comment too, it is to be hoped, and with luck, things'll come out fair and reasonable in the end.

Because I thought that movie was just painfully bad.

-Siege

An Caine style adept should probably have the close fighting maneuver, thus negating all reach bonuses and allowing him to wipe the walls with the troll street punk. If your not playing with the CC martial arts rules, then having an adept power for close fighting would be pretty reasonable, I'd probably only give it a cost of .5, given that it mimics something that anyone can get using the martial arts rules. As for giving reach bonuses, that seems a lot more dangerous. I probably wouldn't allow it in my game, but if it was going to be there I'd make it a scaled expense, and not stack with any other reach bonus. A +1 reach in that condition might cost 1 or 2 as it's not that powerful if it can't stack with anything, while a +2 would cost 3, maybe 4, and if you were feeling really generous and allowed a +3 it would cost 5, if not 6.

The staged/non-staking idea's pretty good. It's true that an adept could learn a martial arts manouver to negate reach, but it lowers the potency of their strikes. There's already a prexisting solution, but there's also numerous ways to gain thermographic vision. Choices and options aren't nessacarily a bad thing.

The advanced melee combat rules really really annoy me. They're very unrealistic on many levels and were obviously created by someone who dosen't fight very many skilled, strong, fully resisting opponents. Like, I get the impression that they were written by someone who practices point-fighting but not full contact/no holds barred. I never use them in my campaigns. The vanilla basic melee combat rules are more realistic.

Anyway, the thing is that in real life it's pretty difficult to get around a reach bonus if your opponent is competent. If they're slow or stupid then you can just rush them, jam them, and crowd them close as you pummel them/take them down and get their long lanky limbs in a situation where they aren't so useful. But if they're halfway decent, they're not going to give you a giant telegraphed long-range attack where you can just go and do that so easily. If you fight a boxer with long arms who throws a lot of jabs you'll find that it's extremely hard to circumvent his reach advantage, and that if you try to crash past his jabs he might catch you as you come in with an uppercut or something. BOOM!

So, in terms of writing a physad power that negates reach, that's kind of hard. I can't really think of something (aside from a knife or firearm) that you could do as an unarmed fighter that would make reach alltogether irrelevant that would work against someone who was both skillful and fully resistant, and not just an idiot who lets you get away with a joint lock on his jab or something.

Maybe a physad power called, "Abrupt Distance Closure"? For one phase per martial arts battle per opponent, the Adept may temporarily take his opponent's reach advantage and apply it to himself instead. This represents his extremely startling mercurial crash into clinch/grappling range while his opponent flails akwardly past him.

It's magic. I was hoping we could arrive at solid game balance. Let's first figure out what the power does, then worry about how it works. Unrealistic? Maybe. It's magic, people don't see heat or hit unarmed from a distance either It's magic, if an explanation is nessecary, it can come later.

I converted Distance Strike at cost to a +1 Reach while engaged in unarmed melee. I also allow a Distance Strike +2 Reach for double cost.

Actually can't said adept just learn to use his feet? +1 power/ +1 Reach. Or is that for martial artists only?

I think it's a solid idea - Adepts should have access to most crunchy melee abilities, and extended reach is one of them.

On a related note, powers like killing hands are supposed to close the gap between unarmed attackes and armed ones - a reach power would help to do the same thing - so philosophically I think it's sound.

Now, this will sound lazy, but I'm at work and don't have my books - has anyone attempted to cost the Troll's reach advantage (which does stack right?) as part of its BP cost - I know the race costs don't work out exactly, but I wonder if anyone was tried to sticka number on it.

Finally, effect wise I imagine some kind of in and out strike (I'm thinking it's called a "flick flack" but I might be pulling that out of thin air) so that the power grants the adept the magical speed/coordination to step in, strike and step out again as a combo, so that for the opponent it's like fighting someone with a long weapon - at higher levels I guess it would become more of a leap or slide, but at low levels adding a few inches to your effective range shouldn't look particularly unusual in action.

I've been beating this dead horse for a while, but here I go one more time... bear with me.

There are things adepts won't be able to do, just like there are things that a cybered-out street sam won't be able to do. If you want a badass reach and adept powers, play a troll adept. If you're a human adept, get used to the idea of not having a natural reach of one and try not to get into melee with a troll with a polearm. Every time someone finds something an adept isn't... well, ADEPT at, they try to make a power for it (anyone remember the smartlink power and the adept power fetishes?). Pick your archetype and live with the shortcomings. They all have them. You can't have everything.

Smiley - the problem with your argument is that, while it reflects coherent general view it's not very helpful at testing the addition of specific new powers.

Certainly there will be some things adepts will "be just not able to do" - but the point of threads like these is to discuss what those limits ought to be. The only way your view represents a coherent answer to that question is if it equates to endorsing a certain set of adept powers, frozen at some point in time, as the full set of things adepts should be able to do and then rejects all further changes. Not only is that intellectually unappealing to me, it obviously also drifts further and further away from the canon position as new powers are introduced.

I do agree that there ought to be certain things adepts can't do. I also agree that designing powers deliberately to mimic the effects of cyberware or spells is stupid and counterproductive. I do agree that an adept smart link is a terrible idea, but I feel that way not simply because it is a new power, but because it doesn't fit the flavour of adepts as I see them.

Improved reach, IMO, is in keeping with the other things adepts do, as I argued earlier. It fits the tone of their existing powers, so apart from a general opposition to newness I can't see what the objections to it are, provided that its cost is properly balanced.

(sorry if this was too personal or wandered off topic. I've been thinking about second-order decisions in other contexts and your view is an example of the position I'm critiquing)

4 power points for +2 reach? and people pay for it?

You people know that even +2 reach is significantly weaker that the already-existing Distance Strike power that allows someone to remove the counterstrike roll altogether?

Fundamentally all this power really is is a weaker Distance Strike that's not allowing them to actually strike from beyond melee range, just farther away in melee range. This isn't the slightest bit unbalanceing by comparison and should cost less than that 2 points that Distace Strike does IMHO.

There are things an adept can't do? Well, sure, everyone has their limits. However, adpets have acess to magic, the whole purpose of which is to surpass those limits.

I'm glad people are discussing the cost of the power. Distance strike makes reach irrelevant, however, extra reach will apply in melee, distance strike doesn't. Choose wisely.

distance strike is useable in melee. there's no minimum distance on it.

Right, which is why distnace strike is so nasty, you dont get a melee counter at all. Nasty.

Distance strike is a ranged attack. If you're in melee range on your own turn, you could hit someone with distance strike, which is a pretty good idea. However, when they attack you on their turn, you'll both have to make melee combat rolls, and teir superior reach could spell distaster for you. Distance strike remains a clever option in melee range, but sometimes people engage *you* in melee.

you're mistaken, Sargasso. it never specifies any sort of minimum distance, for that power. i could be biting your eyebrow, and use distance strike on you.

I'm not understanding the problem here. Distance Strike, as stated earlier, ignores reach modifiers, and creates a situation equivalent to a ranged combat attack. Keep in mind, a 'ranged combat attack' can be over a distance of zero meters (check the range tables). So even if they close in on you, it does not negate the ability of Distance Strike to ignore reach.

The only limitation is on maybe defense, where they will retain their reach advantage when attacking you (depending on the GM interpretation). But when you attack them, even if they're right in your face, they still can't hit you back because of Distance Strike, so it's still quite a viable alternative to not having reach.

Like someone was saying, everyone has advantages and disadvantages, you make do with what you got. You don't see many trolls sneaking around rooftops. Fighting someone bigger, stronger, and with longer limbs is just flat out hard. If they have a comparable level of skill to you, forget it. The rules reflect that very well, in my opinion. But that's just my two cents.

I'm pointing out how the Shadowrun combat sequence works. Example, Adept Jo has Killing hands (Deadly) for 4 points, and distance strike for 2. He's got no intitiative enhancements of any kind. He's fighting Torgo, the mighty Troll gang leader. Torgo's swinging a sword. He calls it a knife, but it's three feet long and serrated. Torgo rolls an 11 intiative...somehow. Adept Jo rolls an 8. Torgo goes first. Trog engages Jo in melee. Trog has +1 reach, and swrod. Total reach for torgo is 2. Adept Jo is unarmed. Torgo decided to go for broke and reduce his melee target number to 2. Jo's target number is 4. Unsurprisingly, Torgo hits Jo. Jo is in pain. On intiative 8, Jo hits Torgo, not with an melee engagement, but with distance strike. Trog's reach is ireelevant. Jo injures Torgo. On intiative 1, Torgo goes again. Torgo engages J in melee agaian, and things repeat. Jo's distance strike cirumvents Torgo's reach...but it *Does not* circumvent Trogo's reach when Torgo's the one engaging Jo on Trogo's innitiative, using the Meleecombat rules. Torgo's complex Action was engageing Jo in Melee.

ah, yes, okay. i thought you were saying that adepts couldn't use DS at all, if they were in melee range. yeah, you're basically screwed if the other guy gets the first swing.

But that's fairly rare, as usually someone will have to close to melee distance while the person with distance can get a round of beating the beejeesus out of him while he does.

The only time that applies is if the person beats them in initiative, and is already in melee distnace... or has surprise, but them you're screwed anyway.

I still say that +2 reach shouldn't be worth more than distance strike.

[edit]
Let's face it, Distnace strike should give a bonus defensively too, I mean you don't even have to connect with punches to hit the guy, I mean imagine that, it's freaking godly.

Yes, I think a one reach bonus should cost 1 power point, and a 2 bonus should cost 2. Comparing Distance strike and a 2 reach bonus, I think that they're roughly equal. Distance strike is a great short range way of turning unarmed attacks into deadly ranged attacks. It's also a clever trick to play at melee range. However, reach is great in melee attack and defense. It will either give me an advantage over characters with low reach, or give me breathing room against characters with higher reach. Or...it can help me in melee however I please, since the person with the most reach dictates whether it rudces their target numbers, or raises their opponent's.

Incidentally, I always tought of disance strike as a Haduken, if you'll pardon the Street Fighter Reference, you?

Summary: Reach +1, 1 Power Points (The same as say, +2 Unarmed, or Killing Hands: Medium, comperable?). Reach +2, 2 Power Points (The same as +4 Unarmed, or the same as Killing Hands: Serious, comperable?).

This way, it seems like a really tough choice, that's best I think. If it's too cheap, it becomes a gamebreaker, if it's too costly, it becomes a "Wall Hanger" which noone'll use.

How's about using the good ol' Adept Handybook?

From Adept Handybook:

MYSTICAL REACH
Cost: see below
Source: leirbakk@pvv.ntnu.no
Author: Jens-Arthur Leirbakk
A sort of variant over the Distance Strike power, some
physical adepts develop that which may only be described
as "Mystical Reach". Their punches reach farther and their
kicks cover more ground. Mystical Reach often manifests as
a (briefly glowing) ghostly image of the limb of the physical
adept, when the physical adept employs this power.
Mystical Reach only applies to unarmed strikes, and not
holds, throws, or armed combat. Races with extended reach
(such as Trolls) must buy this power at level 2 or above to
gain any bonus - only the highest bonus to reach is used, no
matter the source of the reach bonus.

End Copy&paste Operation.

Well, I think 2 points for a single level of reach is exorbirant. Furthermore, making Trolls who wants to buy more reach pay 4 points total, rather then two is absurd. Yes, Trolls already have reach. Making a troll pay more for reach then a human using adept powers is a ludicrous as making a troll pay more for the enchanced attribute power, since he already gains a strength bonus.

Personally, I'd apply the standard +2 TN for doing ranged combat at melee range when an Adept uses Distance Strike at zero range. Alternatively allow a counterstrike. (I interpret the power to mean that the adept makes his martial arts moves, but the effect extends magically. Doing martial arts moves right in the face of an opponent should allow some sort of defense other than simple dodging, imo.)

I know you said to disregard how the power works, but I don't think you can disregard that when discussing a power with an effect as physical as reach.

The easiest way of explaining it would be with leaps and other physics-defying movements like in Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon and various Anime movies. You could use this movements to keep the distance to an attacking opponent, or to rapidly close that gap for an attack. With that explanation, I propose the following alternatives:

=Alternative 1= . =Alternative 2=
Reach +1; 1 PP . Reach +1; 2 PPs
Reach +2; 2 PP . Reach +2; 3 PPs
Reach +3; 4 PP . Reach +3; 5 PPs

I'm more inclined to go with alternative 1, although it allows for a truly formidable Reach of +6 for an Adept Troll Polearm wielder. +7 if you add telescoping cyberlimbs.
Considering the movement involved, you could also argue that the technique Close Combat isn't as effective. Maybe have Close Combat halve the Adept's Reach, or only take away any non-magical Reach the adept uses/has.
If you add that effect, then definately use the higher costs.

There's a new thread started about distance strike, which you may want to check out. I like your alterative 1 there. If a baddass troll with a polearm gets a 7 reach, he's paid 4 power points for 3 levels of that. Those four powe could have paid for 8 levels of Polearms. A fair trade methinks. One idea is to use the alternative 1 chart...but it count as one lvel less potent when you're rmed. This favors unarmed fighting, but still makes it useful with weapons if you're serious about taking a high level

More important, yes, but how much more is the game balance issue at hand.

I know. How bout a power called "Bite His Hand" that makes the enemy's reach not count when he's trying to punch you?

i dunno. i just allow adepts to buy melee maneuvers for .25pp. pick up Close Combat, and that handles the negation-of-reach thing. distance strike handles the other part.