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Austere Emancipator
Continuing from here.
QUOTE (Botch)
Oh, leaf/inverse heart broadheads have quite a fine point to pierce tough hide/leather, so a variation on this design.

I do not question the capability of such broadhead designs to penetrate those, or flesh, or plate mail, but modern (2004) body armor is orders of magnitude tougher than that, and it'll get a whole lot tougher in 60 years.

If you're hoping to get the arrow to penetrate any armor, going with a broadhead won't leave any extra space for explosives either -- the blades will have to be kept extremely thin. It would allow for a bit of extra fragments which might come in handy -- for a non-armor piercing variant, a big broadhead would be best to maximize fragmentation. I still maintain that a very sharp point is the way to go if armor penetration is required, and thus the +1 Power of Dikote is a good comparison.

QUOTE (Botch)
A flat-cross section point that widens slowly at first to maintain armour penetration, the micro-delay explosive head housed in the wider base then fires mono-filament/obsidian particles in a open-choke shotgun effect through the new hole in the armour?

This might work if the explosives are in a cone towards the rear of the arrow and the whole front is filled with easily fragmenting material. If triggered once the head (still preferably pointed) has penetrated the armor, optimally much of the shock wave and fragmentation would pass through that hole.

It's a rather risky way of getting the same effect as with a very basic explosive arrow design. If you've already got the arrowhead through armor (a big if), you can probably get most of the arrow through that hole. Once it's up to the fletching in the armor or stopped, set off the tubular explosive charge starting from the rear -- this should prove plenty lethal with an easily fragmenting material for the shaft.
Sargasso
Since when is dikoting an arrow not enough?
Austere Emancipator
Since the moment someone wanted an armor piercing arrow that does Deadly base damage. I'd personally rather go with an Assault Cannon with AV ammunition at that point.
Sargasso
Me too. Dikoted arrows are cannon, and simple rules wise. If you want a projectile weapon which does base deadly damage, dikote a heavy crossbow bolt. 7D, and armor piercing. Le ow.
GenoSicK
Actually, in the CC, it became 8S, so it would be a 9D.

Besides, in Sr, bolt are not armor piercing.
It can seem logical, but that's not canon.
Lindt
Oddly, a broadhead arrow will tear into modren day body armor like butter. Unless its got ceramic plates. Isnt the concept of a troll bow adept scary enough? Do we really need AV arrows? Does that even make sense?
Austere Emancipator
Stupid me, I read "Barbed Head" as "Broadhead" in CC p. 12. Yeah, you could easily justify all standard arrows getting +1 Power, +1 DL from Dikote.

The Heavy Crossbow with Dikoted bolts is a real killer against unarmored opponents, certainly. Perfect for hunting, I'd imagine. The low power is a bit of a turn-off, even if it goes against the usually-lower Impact.
Sargasso
True, but dikoted arrows fired by a strong archer are lower damage code (S) but higher power.
Apathy
I agree with everything everyone has said in this thread, and realize that the whole concept of strapping explosives onto arrow heads is more cinematic than realistic.

That said, I'm interested in your (better informed) opinions. What is the theoretical viability of attaching small shaped charges onto the ends of arrows instead of pointed ends. The penetration and damage would both be solely based on the blast (and therefore would be a set value, not varying based on strength), but might(?) get better penetration than an actual piercing arrow. (It would still be more effective to just make them to a grenade launcher instead, but might satisfy some peoples Rambo flashbacks.)

What do you think?
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Lindt)
Oddly, a broadhead arrow will tear into modren day body armor like butter. Unless its got ceramic plates. Isnt the concept of a troll bow adept scary enough? Do we really need AV arrows? Does that even make sense?

No, and broadheads don't tear into modern body armor like butter. Some armor designs are certainly vulnerable to such attacks, as has been proven by many knife wounds through armor vests. But that should be a thing of the past now that stab and cut protective body armor is becoming more and more common. Getting rid of some armor construction methods and making minor adjustments into projectile-resistant armor eliminates this problem.

And that doesn't take into account all the new inventions in the field. We've got the Shear Thickening Liquids that have been discussed several times on this forum, and several other designs to make the armor rigid on impact, at least as far as the projectile is concerned.

I've heard a billion rumors about broadhead vs modern body armor, but has someone actually have some proof? I mean, I don't doubt that arrows can penetrate certain types of body armor, I know they can, but I'd really love to see some sort of investigation into how common such armor types are, exactly what sort of penetration we're talking about here, etc.

And BTW, metal rifle plates in a kevlar vest are plenty hard enough to stop any arrow fired from a man-portable conventional bow in existance. No need for ceramic plates.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Apathy)
What is the theoretical viability of attaching small shaped charges onto the ends of arrows instead of pointed ends.

The heaviest commonly used arrowhead today is 125 grains (8 grams). That's about Light Sporting Rifle or midway between Light and Heavy pistols in bullet weight. A shaped charge, like any other explosive, would be quite useless at that weight.

But then there's Explosive ammunition for Hold-Out Pistols and Assault Rifles, and you could probably make the arrowhead weigh, what, 300-ish grains if you don't mind fucking up the ballistics. So why not?

However, I personally think that's covered nicely by the basic EX-Explosive arrowhead. It has better penetration than a Dikoted arrow -- if it only exploded and fragmented all around, how would you explain that? (That's not an actual invitation to think logically about Explosive ammunition or arrowheads, it'll make your brain explode.)
Lindt
Meh, embarrassed.gif Im still on the low end. It used to, then the knife proof bit was added. How's that work anyhow?
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Selection and Application Guide to Personal Body Armor (NIJ Guide 100-01))
Stab-resistant body armor works by many of the same principles as ballistic-resistant body armor. Stab- and puncture-resistant armors are made from a variety of materials. The most common designs use multiple layers of materials. These layers are made from extremely strong fibers that can be either woven or laminated together. Other materials used are metals and composites. As the threat impacts the armor, the materials either deflect the threat, or due to their very high levels of tensile strength and cut and/or tear resistance, they slightly “stretch” before breaking or being cut. This “stretching” spreads the impact forces over a larger area of the armor and dissipates the strike energy from the threat, eventually stopping the threat. Most often, multiple layers of materials are needed to successfully stop typical threats. Some of the top layers of material may be defeated, but if properly designed, the armor will stop the threat with little to no penetration. The backing layers provide additional strength to the armor, and each layer assists in dissipating the strike energy.

Many of the same materials are used in both ballistic-resistant armor and stab-resistant armor, with one important distinction. Because knives, picks, and spikes are pointed, the initial contact forces for stabs threats are very high. These high forces pose a risk to ballistic-resistant armor. To counter this, stab-resistant armors are normally made from very tightly woven fabrics or from very closely spaced laminated layers.

Certainly not all body armor in use now IRL is rated as Stab Resistant -- in fact such armor is a rather small minority. STL and other such advances aren't even in use yet. So if you went out there and started shooting people wearing armor vests with broadhead arrows, you might see penetrations. Give it 10 years, though, and the number of penetrations will drop sharply. Give it 60...
xizor
what 10 years if your layer is good, 60 if he isnt? grinbig.gif
Edward
You say SR armour is really effective but check out the leather jacket. Real leather provides 2 points of impact armour. This suggests that the impact armours are not all that affective. Light security armour is only twice as good as a leather bike jacket (and as leather turns away such a large portion of the attack impact weapons are very weak). That or they did something strange to the leather.

Edward
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Edward)
You say SR armour is really effective but check out the leather jacket. Real leather provides 2 points of impact armour. [...]That or they did something strange to the leather.

SR leather is maaaaaaaagic, just like the super-angry diamond molecules of Dikote and the magazine on an AVS.

For the canon Leather vs Armored Clothing Impact Armor figures to make sense, you'd have to assume that 2060s body armor is manufactured out of materials which unravel themselves or melt to goo whenever hit by a very sharp point or anything with more than 60 grams of mass behind it.

Perhaps when they made that table they were thinking runners wearing leather is so cool they've got to encourage players to get it.
Firewall
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
And BTW, metal rifle plates in a kevlar vest are plenty hard enough to stop any arrow fired from a man-portable conventional bow in existance. No need for ceramic plates.

Man-portable, which still leaves the question of Detritus the troll...

(Speaking of Detritus, the psychological effect of a troll with what is essentially a ballista should be taken into account...)
GenoSicK
Hmmmm... Detritus.... My Hero ! biggrin.gif
Botch
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Sep 21 2004, 07:32 PM)
The heaviest commonly used arrowhead today is 125 grains (8 grams). That's about Light Sporting Rifle or midway between Light and Heavy pistols in bullet weight. A shaped charge, like any other explosive, would be quite useless at that weight.

125 grain for the arrowhead, yes, but there is also the shaft to take into consideration.

Minimum Shaft Weights

Modern performance shafts have three basic designs - aluminium tube, carbon fibre tube, and hollow carbon fibre tube containing an aluminium tube. As the poundage of the bow increases the weight and stiffness has of the arrows has to increase. If it doesn't the arrow begins a curving, whipping flight to the side. Over 6 STR archers will be using relatively huge shafts.

Taking the recurve values as they have a closer correlation to STR required to pull the bow. At 6' tall the arrow length on average would be 33" long, and a pull of around 90lbs can be managed with a 4/5 STR. A powerful skilled archer (STR 6, Bow 5) can manage 120-140lbs pull, putting the total weight of shaft and arrow at a conservative 1,800 grains for a 6' human. This is just the start as compound systems decrease the poundage at full draw. The peak draw listed in the table for compound systems is the poundage when the string is about half drawn, full extension poundage can have 35%-60% drop-off. Compound bows deliver an accelerating "push" to the arrow resulting in a lower trajectory and faster flight speed. Current compound bows are not generally built to a maximum pullable poundage as the arrows would punch through 5" thick wicker targets at a distance of at least 80 yrds. My old, cheap 68lb compound will punch the arrows through up to the fletchings at 40-50 yrds.

Utilizing the front of a hollow shaft to contain secondary effect materials reduces the strength of the arguement on comparing arrowhead mass to bullet mass. A hardened needle tip could be used for initial penetration, whilst the explosive packed forward end could be used for the secondary effect containment and delivery system. In fact, archers with >6STR would need to adding filler material to the shafts just to stop the shaft looking like an extra-long havana cigar. For a STR 10 troll using a bow the total arrow weight would be measured in 1,000s of grains, not 100s as used for bullets.

NB. Any arrow shaft to be used against armour targets would need to be hardened. The last time I missed the backnet and hit a brickwall next to the target I ended up with a brand-new aluminium shaft 4 inches long and 1 1/2 feet wide. CF shaft are more likely to "bounce" of a hard target, but can still shatter, sending fine carbon fibres across the immediate area.

For those of you who like to know the name of a 125 grain field point.

Carbon Terminator Hunter Select
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Botch)
Utilizing the front of a hollow shaft to contain secondary effect materials reduces the strength of the arguement on comparing arrowhead mass to bullet mass.

Apathy's question was specifically about shaped charges, which need to be very wide for a significant length. The shaft is useless for that, all the mass would have to be in the actual arrowhead, and even then in the rear-half. For a simple explosive arrow design you could use the whole shaft, like I already mentioned in the opening post of this thread.

The smallest effective HEAT/HEDP warheads in conventional weapons are in small-caliber cannons and grenade launchers. Those are generally speaking in the 2000-4000+ grain range. The explosive charge, detonator and necessary casing on an M789 30mm cannon HEDP round weigh about 1500 grains.

Of course you are never going to get anywhere near the performance of a cannon or GL from an arrow anyway. You might be better off with even a 300-400 grain shaped charge than just the kinetic energy -- below that I have serious doubts if a shaped charge could possibly be effective. That's still 350-450 grains per arrowhead, though.

And, like I said, the "How this might work in the fictional world of SR" discussion is rather pointless because the best way to model this in SR is the (EX-)Explosive Arrowhead.
Zenmaxer
Okay, here's what I've got... I checked the str min tables and such, then checked the weight-bearing calculations.... basically at 10str, with a ranger-x bow, you're going to have a minimum pull of around 200kg (10strx20KG=max lifted).... which is brutally insane. Add to this the fact that it's a compound recurved bow in all likelyhood, and we're dealing with some truly absurd velocities. This means a bloody large arrow, basically. At this speed an obsidian arrow head honed to a surgical edge would fracture as it penetrated, but would still achieve penetration of most personal armor. This is due to the peculiar properties of using a glass head instead of a ductile metallic one, namely that the head does not bend, the edge does not turn, and the material does not compress. Instead it will sheet and fracture as it continues to penetrate. The explosive would be mounted in the junction of head and shaft, and is only designed to flechette the arrowhead, not inflict damage in and of itself. The primary question is shape of the arrow head and composition of the shaft.

A knife stab and the impact of an arrow are not comparable, to be honest. You're dealing in different orders of magnitude.

As to using a cannon instead, a cannon isn't start legal, thankfully.
Botch
I was indicating that a high STR human archer wouldn't have any problem using a 300-400 grain head, trolls/big orcs/cybers with an exceptional strength wouldn't have much issue with using 2,000 grain explosive systems either. In fact at least that has to be added to the complete arrow weight to maintain normal ballistics.

You need to stop comparing bullets to arrowheads or are you only ever talking about the very tip of a bullet. The whole arrow is the same as the bullet(sure, only part of it may enter the target, but all of it is fired at the target). Therefore an explosive arrow designed for armoured targets has much more available mass/volume for the shaped charge.

The reason for the limitation of around 100-125 grains for a standard arrowhead today is a practical use issue. If you change the head on an arrow it is desired that it has stable/similar flight charactics independant of which arrowhead used

Here's my munchkin bow.

Dual-bolt cross-bow with power assisted "winchester" draw mechanism.
Smartlink II attachment with distance/target size computation
Frangile explosive fibre/mono-filament shafts
Delayed explosive frangible heads
Trailing mono-filament line linking each bolt together.

The adjusted smartlink system computes distance to target of x size. The angle of the flight path of each bolt is adjusted to so one or both bolts "miss" to the side. The causes the tethered bolt to pull the mono-filmament into the target. After a short delay the shaft and head explode for secondary/tertiary fragmentation damage. All for the price of hiring 5 guys with big guns to do the job for you. biggrin.gif
Botch
QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
... At this speed an obsidian arrow head honed to a surgical edge would fracture as it penetrated, but would still achieve penetration of most personal armor. This is due to the peculiar properties of using a glass head instead of a ductile metallic one, namely that the head does not bend, the edge does not turn, and the material does not compress. Instead it will sheet and fracture as it continues to penetrate. The explosive would be mounted in the junction of head and shaft, and is only designed to flechette the arrowhead, not inflict damage in and of itself. The primary question is shape of the arrow head and composition of the shaft.

A knife stab and the impact of an arrow are not comparable, to be honest. You're dealing in different orders of magnitude.

As to using a cannon instead, a cannon isn't start legal, thankfully.

The poundage does not directly correspond to speed on a bow. Higher poundage must have heavier/stiffer arrows and result in a longer accurate range with more stopping power, not blinding fast arrows.

As we are definately out-of-canon for obsidian:-

1. The shafts are going to be almost completely unavailable for that poundage bow and should have an insane availablity.
2. The bow would have to be a complete custom-build, normal limb materials cannot contain that much energy.
3. And what facility do you have access to make shafts out of SOTA materials so it doesn't fragment when the head contacts armour and still maintains a narrow diameter? Unless your guy is a troll I can't see have you can maintain arrow weight/stiffness characteristics on a 32"-34" arrow at STR10.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Botch)
You need to stop comparing bullets to arrowheads or are you only ever talking about the very tip of a bullet. The whole arrow is the same as the bullet(sure, only part of it may enter the target, but all of it is fired at the target). Therefore an explosive arrow designed for armoured targets has much more available mass/volume for the shaped charge.

The smallest (in diameter) conventional shaped charge in use by the US Armed Forces that I am aware of is the above M789, which is 30mm with the casing. An arrow shaft is simply not thick enough to allow for a shaped charge placed inside. Additionally, making a shaped charge much longer at a set diameter will not increase the penetrating power of the charge significantly. You could make the whole shaft out of an explosive, but what would really matter for the penetration, and damage done to the target when we've got impact detonation, would be the explosive inside the arrowhead.

Packing explosives all along the shaft might be worthwhile because of area damage with heavy arrows, though -- but when considering the feasibility of shaped charges, it's all about the arrowhead.

The only explosive bullet design that I am aware of that is in use with a military IRL is the .50 BMG MK 211 MOD 0 API "Multipurpose" round, with a projectile weight of 671gr. A design like that only works because you can get it to hit the target at several mach already, and the penetrator itself is very small and dense. No use in an arrow.

QUOTE (Botch)
The reason for the limitation of around 100-125 grains for a standard arrowhead today is a practical use issue.

I already admitted a 300 grain arrowhead even without using particularly powerful bows in my first reply to Apathy, which is why I used the 350-450 grain figure for a shaped charge for an arrow.

QUOTE (Botch)
Frangile explosive fibre/mono-filament shafts

Is the main purpose here only to kill the one target and not do damage to people around? If so, monofilament "fragmentation" is kinda cool. You'd want it inside the enemy, though, because such extremely light and brittle fragments would be rather easily stopped by armor. They'd certainly cut nasty wounds once they get to flesh, though.

QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
A knife stab and the impact of an arrow are not comparable, to be honest. You're dealing in different orders of magnitude.

Not really. NIJ Stab Protection Level III type armor must have less than 20mm penetration from an icepick-like steel spike dropped on it with 48.5 ft-lbs. This page lists the kinetic energy of a 60lbs bow with 500gr arrows at 53.6 ft-lbs. We're definitely in the same energy range here.

The real difference would be that an arrow is a light, fast-moving object, while the ice pick is a heavy, slow-moving object. In this respect, an arrow is much closer to a bullet than a stab. Which is why a vest rated to protect both against handgun bullets and stab wounds would be optimal against an arrow IRL.
Zenmaxer
okay, the issue however is the profile of impact. most bullets have a blunt impact profile, as opposed to the fine edged penetrating edge of the arrow. An ice pick is pretty sharp, sure, but not REALLY sharp, which shifts the distribution of force applied. It's a closer comparision than to a bullet, but it's still pretty far off.

"Is the main purpose here only to kill the one target and not do damage to people around? If so, monofilament "fragmentation" is kinda cool. You'd want it inside the enemy, though, because such extremely light and brittle fragments would be rather easily stopped by armor. They'd certainly cut nasty wounds once they get to flesh, though." That's basically what the obsidian head does when the charge blows.

"As we are definately out-of-canon for obsidian:-

1. The shafts are going to be almost completely unavailable for that poundage bow and should have an insane availablity.
2. The bow would have to be a complete custom-build, normal limb materials cannot contain that much energy.
3. And what facility do you have access to make shafts out of SOTA materials so it doesn't fragment when the head contacts armour and still maintains a narrow diameter? Unless your guy is a troll I can't see have you can maintain arrow weight/stiffness characteristics on a 32"-34" arrow at STR10."

I am using a ranger-x bow, with a legal str min code, so it is actually within the canon. Some way or another there are shafts that can take the stress. How would you calculate the pull for a str 10 min bow? As I understand it, str min is literally the minimum strength to pull the bow, so it would match up. Draw length is an issue though... hmm.. still it looks pretty feasible to design an arrow with a d code.

For the bow limbs, I would use extremely long chain memory polymers braided onto a carbon weave latice. Or something similarly silly and super-techy.

Clearly, given the way ranger-x bows and their arrows scale, shadowrun arrows will go through armor with high str min bows. You'd prolly use the shaft of a ranger x arrow and work from there.

"kinetic energy of a 60lbs bow"
60lbs=27.3kg... so that bow's pull is for whatever reason, probably comparatively tiny, if you wanna go with pure canon measurements.

Let's set out the assumptions... the arrow shaft will likely be at least 1000 grain. the arrow head will probably be 100-300. the arrow length is 30. the draw of the bow is strmin-10. str 10ers have a max lift and hold of around 200kg according to the rules if I remember correctly, so that's our ceiling for the pull. What SHOULD we use?

what if we put a sabot style discarding penetrator on the obsidian head so that we get both a fine point impact and broad head cutting edge..? I think it IS workable.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
most bullets have a blunt impact profile, as opposed to the fine edged penetrating edge of the arrow. An ice pick is pretty sharp, sure, but not REALLY sharp, which shifts the distribution of force applied. It's a closer comparision than to a bullet, but it's still pretty far off.

Check the engineering details of the ice pick and the knife blades here. Those are all as sharp as arrows. They've gone out of their way to put standards on exactly how sharp the testing blades have to be.

QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
what if we put a sabot style discarding penetrator on the obsidian head so that we get both a fine point impact and broad head cutting edge..? I think it IS workable.

I guess you mean having the obsidian broadhead over a very sharp, very pointed steel head? Unless you're talking about some really freaky design, there's no sabot present, and "discarding" will only happen when it hits something -- or when it's handled roughly...

That sort of thing could work, yeah. It would basically be a broadhead that causes slightly higher than average amounts of pain against unarmored targets, and a simple penetrating arrow against armored targets. It would be extremely difficult and expensive to manufacture, however, and might tend to be slightly worse at armor penetration than a "non-jacketed" pointed steel arrow.
Zenmaxer
My main issue here is that I don't think the forces applied are being properly calculated.... first we need to figure out just how high the draw is for a str 10 min bow, and work from there.

According to SR's str system, 60 pounds isn't that much for a max lift\pull, it comes out to about 27.3kg which'd be str 2 or at most three. so 180+lb pull would be fairly logical for a str 10 bow and that's the absolute lowball estimate. It'd prolly be closer to 300 lbs, with a much much finer edge placing actual pressure from point of impact far higher. Like I said, orders of magnitude higher.

My second issue is that it's highly unlikely that they were using surgically sharp blades in those tests. There is a huge difference between a sharp knife and a surgically sharp knife.

I am talking about a fairly freaky design.... basically, you'd fit the penetrator over the broad head so that the initial impact is that of a bodiken style head but actual flesh damage is inflicted by the flared blades of the broadhead and the fragmentation of the broadhead. Basically, the initial penetration of the weave compromises the fabric allowing the edge to sever threads and punch completely in.

Finally, damage levels represent the harm inflicted by a successful hit, power represents chance to resist. If an obsidian broadhead hit flesh at these speeds, it would probably kill you, assuming a torso hit, especially if it exploded into a wave of monofilament style flechettes inside you, shredding your internal organs. Which is what this does. The issue of what armor does to stop this would fall under power, not damage level, and the canonical power of a ranger-x bow at this str min is 14.
Botch
Rule of thumb in play beret.gif

Comparisons from the power of my own bow, the assumption that I am strength 4, Ranger-X shafts are constructed in a new way using the same materials as "normal" high power SR bows, your sam is a 5'10" human (hence 30" arrows), standard field-penetration weight arrows are used to avoid range modifies, the Ranger-X is designed for an average STR10 individual who is not a bow master, then.

The draw weight of my 68lb speed-cam bow = 86lb recurve bow power
A draw weight of 2.5 times of 86lb recurve bow = 215lbs

Therefore a Ranger-X off-the-shelf would have a draw of 215lbs.

A 215lb recurve bow would need a shaft weight of approx. 1,430 grain
A standard recurve big-game hunting bow is about 60lbs
A standard big-game arrow is about 330 grains

Therefore the standard ranger shaft at 30" would have to load an additional 1,100 grains, or weigh 4 times as much. And no, you can't put all the extra weight at the front, but could disperse much of the addition in the front half.

Please note: The above figures do not include head, fletching and nock weights and are based on a minimum shaft weight required to maintain useable flight characteristics.

I still think deploying the exploding fragmentation material from the front of shaft through the hole in the armour created by the head is the way to go. Especially if the head was slightly wider than start of the shaft, this would allow several centimeters of penetration by the shaft and thus more lateral deployment of material. I can be completely wrong. nyahnyah.gif
Botch
QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
According to SR's str system, 60 pounds isn't that much for a max lift\pull, it comes out to about 27.3kg which'd be str 2 or at most three. so 180+lb pull would be fairly logical for a str 10 bow and that's the absolute lowball estimate. It'd prolly be closer to 300 lbs, with a much much finer edge placing actual pressure from point of impact far higher. Like I said, orders of magnitude higher.

You're missing a bit on STR based max lift. A bow for a persons strength has a lower poundage than what can be lifted once in a gym.

A bow is always appears underpowered on pure grunt. Peak and hold poundage on a is based on how much force you can smoothly apply through 3 fingers and then hold for 3 secs WITHOUT wobbling about. In the above calculations I think I err on the generous side of the draw weight for a Ranger-X.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
Like I said, orders of magnitude higher.

And likewise, an icepick wielded by someone with STR 10 will generate orders of magnitude more energy than an icepick wielded by someone with STR 4. Doesn't change the fact that arrows and icepicks are in the same energy range.

QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
My second issue is that it's highly unlikely that they were using surgically sharp blades in those tests. There is a huge difference between a sharp knife and a surgically sharp knife.

It's also highly unlikely that arrows are surgically sharp. In 60 years surgically sharp arrows might make more sense to have around, but in 60 years they'll also be defeated much easier.

QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
basically, you'd fit the penetrator over the broad head so that the initial impact is that of a bodiken style head

What's "bodiken"? Google only gave 10 hits, none of which have anything to do with shape, design or structure.

Do you really mean to have the hard, sharp structure on top of the weak, fragmenting structure? The whole point of a penetrator is to be at the actual spot of initial penetration -- if you've got obisidian (or any other soft/fragmenting material) at the edge, the penetrator is totally pointless. I cannot fathom any way of making the hard jacket coming off the arrowhead as it penetrates, either.

QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
If an obsidian broadhead hit flesh at these speeds, it would probably kill you, assuming a torso hit, especially if it exploded into a wave of monofilament style flechettes inside you, shredding your internal organs.

A sporting rifle soft-point hit in the torso will also probably kill you IRL, but only does 9S. Heck, an assault rifle FMJ (M193 or M855 specifically) hit at close range in the torso is very, very likely to kill you, but that only does 8M. Really heavy pistols with soft-point ammunition will crush amazingly large holes right through you, and they're stuck at 10M.

If you like canonical Damage Codes, call them "Freaky Obsidian Arrowheads" while using the rules for EX-Explosive ammunition and Bob's your uncle.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Botch)
I still think deploying the exploding fragmentation material from the front of shaft through the hole in the armour created by the head is the way to go.

I'm definitely not going to say you're completely wrong. I'm sure you could make that work with 2060s tech -- explosives in the rear of the shaft and the front of the shaft/arrowhead made of/filled with easily fragmenting materials. With all the weird explanations for SR weapons and ammo, that's pretty sane. I'd still personally rather have the explosion happen inside the target to maximize damage, but I can see how your way would make the arrows at least somewhat better against armor.

I'd still be hesitant to give them any more than the +2 Power of EX-Ex, though.
Apathy
QUOTE
what if we put a sabot style discarding penetrator on the obsidian head so that we get both a fine point impact and broad head cutting edge

Sabots and arrows have nothing to do with each other. Sabots are used in gun tubes to ensure a tight seal with the walls of the tube, and then fall off the projectile after the round leaves the tube (thereby allowing the penetrator to continue on its path with a tiny cross section to minimize wind resistance which would slow down the velocity of the round.

[edit]

I think all the damage codes in Shadowrun are ridiculously low - but that's intentional to give the players a chance at survival and make more cinematic gunfights. If you argue that a particular weapon ought to do deadly damage based on the damage it does (or would theoretically do) in real life, then you'll need to modify the damage codes on all the weapons to be fair. Then everything does deadly damage, and you're no further ahead than you were before. In relative terms, though, no arrow, regardless of the type of arrowhead it has, is going to do greater damage IRL than what you achieve with modern firearms.
Botch
Austere Emancipator, thanks.

The whole idea of STR10 bows IMO is completely insane, namely, overpenetration. Then theres rarity value, just how many shadowrunners would have one? A troll couldn't use one a human can, and if you can afford STR10 cyber, why buy a bow? For the same concealibilty buy a take-down sniper rifle, same conc., better damage, cheaper ammo, a much longer range and takes the same about of time to setup.
Zenmaxer
:: sighs :: ok, first off, it's a smartlinked bow. so you aim, draw, release. You don't draw aim while holding and release. so the single lift str would be more accurate. I think I spelled bodikan wrong (I know I did actually.) The problem with your argument against surgically sharp arrows is that A) I stated that they were surgically sharp, B) if armor can easily defend against surgically sharp weapons, why do monofilament whips work so well with really pretty limited force behind them? C) the force of impact will be at least three times as great, distributed over an area of impact as much as 100 times smaller. D) Impact armor values aren't up for debate here, they are what they are in SR and the fact that there's even decent defense against say a fineblade is pretty impressive. E) A good compound bow be it recurve, speed cam, what have you, is going to significantly augment the effects of the draw force applied. Translation: at really high draws, stuff gets pretty bloody impressive and will fuck you up.



Botch, that's what my arrows do... they slam in, penetrating, then the explosives blow the head apart to create what amounts to a shotgun blast of monomolecular fletchettes.

Apathy:
Sabot is the closest term to what I'm talking about. If you would prefer we can call it a discarding penetrative head, but that's a mouthful.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
A) I stated that they were surgically sharp

Your obsidian arrowheads, yes. I was talking about arrows in general, as part of the "Do standard broadhead arrows penetrate body armor easily" discussion. When you just say "arrows" I assume you do not mean obsidian arrows.

QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
B) if armor can easily defend against surgically sharp weapons, why do monofilament whips work so well with really pretty limited force behind them?

Because monowire in SR is maaaaaaaaaagic. If monowire did not exist and you tried to introduce it with a house ruling, most people would think it's unbalanced, or at least doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
C) the force of impact will be at least three times as great, distributed over an area of impact as much as 100 times smaller.

You're now talking about a very high STR-min bow, I assume? Yes, the force of impact will then be greater, we went through that already. Modern (2004) soft body armor might well be uncapable of handling such attacks. But this is the 2060s.

Likewise, several times greater force with far smaller area of impact often does not translate to better penetration of armor in SR. Compare Heavy Pistols, Shotguns, Sporting Rifles and Machineguns, for starters.

QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
D) Impact armor values aren't up for debate here, they are what they are in SR and the fact that there's even decent defense against say a fineblade is pretty impressive.

I know I don't mind debating the Impact armor values in SR... And no, they don't even approach impressive, when you think of all the amazing things people are doing with body armor now. The idea that Armored Clothing in 2060s would provide zero protection against cuts, stabs or blunt attacks is truly ludicrous.

Bodikan only got me 4 hits, all last names, one of which a typo. I don't think anybody still has any idea how your proposed arrowhead ("sabot style discarding penetrator on the obsidian head") works.

[Edit]BTW, if the STRx20kg Lift Overhead limit is good for estimating the pull of a bow, then would you say that Average Joe would be well off with a 130lbs draw, and someone who works out a bit should go for 175lbs? Do people drawing their bows often look like people lifting an almost-PB weight above their heads?[/Edit]
toturi
For a Canon comparison between obsidian and non-obsidian I would use the macuaitl and the katana. As you can see the katana(although Canon fluff descriptions describes the katana as a 2handed weapon) wins out by 1 Power and is only on par win a normal sword, furthermore it suffers from degradation.

So I do not see any need to up the power or damage level of a weapon just because it is made from obsidian.

Oh yes, and comparing mono-edged weapons to obsidian weapons - Ares monosword vs macuaitl, we still have the obsidian losing out by 1Power.
JittersFB
This is a pretty neat site discussing various weapon impact and penetration. It includes arrows, spears, and .30-06 among other things. Good info.

How hard does it hit?
Zenmaxer
:: shrugs :: okay, nevermind I suppose, it's not that important. I would like to mention that the macauitl is described as a somewhat ritualistic weapon, which means they probably didn't bring the obsidian to a nearly atom fine edge using micro-machining. It's also a shitty weapon design

And I've never heard anyone call monowire unbalanced, really, because it's almost possible (there are some issues with molecular decay that render it questionable, among a few other things.) Atom fine obsidian blades are magic too, they just happen to be real.

I really wish that you were just a little less hostile, AE, but I realize I probably am annoying. I'll work up a technical drawing of the arrow head I had in mind, later. The proper spelling of bodikan is bodkin, sorry about that.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
And I've never heard anyone call monowire unbalanced, really, because it's almost possible (there are some issues with molecular decay that render it questionable, among a few other things.)

Well, there is the fact that at the thicknesses where it would be very useful for cutting things, it wouldn't take a whole lot of force to snap it. A monowhip would have to be far thicker than it's described as being (and thus it wouldn't cut into stuff nearly as well), or it would be a more-or-less single-usage item. Monotripwires would also be one-shot items, and if you use them at a thin enough bundle to cut right into an unarmored human with near-zero force, any solid or just hard object coming at it with a decent speed would snap it.

Ie monowire as such might be useful for some weapon (and more likely armor) technologies, but not as useful as SR makes it out to be. Much the same problems as with Dikote, just not quite as bad.

Sorry about the hostility, I'm really trying not to sound like an asshole, because I realize I don't know everything. I'll try harder in the future.

Looked at a few pictures of bodkins (as in "a blunt needle with a large eye for drawing tape or ribbon through a loop or hem", a new word to me), but I didn't still quite get how it'd work on the arrow. If you've got someplace to upload a picture to, even a simple picture made with Paint might help.
Kremlin KOA
Actually AE bucky cables are the theorised idea for monowire and it is suggested that a bucky cable could tether a high orbit satellite to earth
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)
Actually AE bucky cables are the theorised idea for monowire and it is suggested that a bucky cable could tether a high orbit satellite to earth

Yes, I'm aware of the existence of buckmeisterfullerene tubes. Yeah, that stuff has a truly amazing tensile strength (in psi, anyway). But if you make a cable of it thin enough to cut right into human flesh, it will snap easily.

I think this is the latest discussion on monowire properties on DS.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Because monowire in SR is maaaaaaaaaagic. If monowire did not exist and you tried to introduce it with a house ruling, most people would think it's unbalanced, or at least doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


Monowire in SR has a lot of weird things, but I disagree with this one. I don't see the halving of impact armor to be so much penetration as an increased potential for the monowire to skid across the surface of the armor to an unarmored part or something, or to otherwise hit parts that aren't armored more easily than other melee weapons. Given that monowire doesn't do well against barriers, it makes more sense to me.

And I think the word being looked for is "bodkin"; it's the only thing I can think of applicable to arrows with similar spelling.

~J
Austere Emancipator
That's the most reasonable excuse for monowire that I've ever heard. If I were ever forced to GM a SR world that has canon monowire in it, that's what I'd go with.
Zenmaxer
one of my major interests is actually molecular science, so I'm intimately familiar with bucky tubes. There are a few other issues with them too... you'd actually prolly "braid" them for use as monowire, for a bunch of reasons.

Interesting treatise on the bucky series

While I think Kage's analysis is excellent, it's more probably that it represents the effects of linear super fine penetration... basically a very long, very, very fine slice. Admittedly overall PSI is fairly low for impact pressure.... but the force is distributed over such a small area that it becomes tremendously powerful. Try running a units conversion from inches to nanometers or even microns and you'll see what I mean.

More to the point on the topic, what I'm trying to say is that given canon strength measurements for impact armor, obsidian headed arrows would penetrate with almost no resistance in a manner very similar to the mechanics of monowire. Barriers on the other hand would stop them pretty well cold. Admittedly there is significant difference between the scale of monowire and an obsidian edge, but it's still in the same super-fine range since it's very improbable that monowire is just one buckytube per strand, and buckytubes are giants in the world of molecules.

For reference by the way, a braided nanotube whip probably would be fairly durable... assume a 20-30 strand braid, which would still give you an absurdly thin whip. At that level, almost nothing is a "hard" surface.

On bows.. that's why I gave the lowball estimate of 180 or so lbs pull, which with a 1000 or so grain arrow and 300-400 grain head would give you some very serious punch.

Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Zenmaxer)
Try running a units conversion from inches to nanometers or even microns and you'll see what I mean.

Now try doing the same conversions for tensile strength and you’ll see what AE means.

~J
Zenmaxer
Yeah :: grins :: I did say fairly durable, not really strong.
That's why the arrows are definately single use... heheh besides the fact that they blow themselves apart. The tip is going to fracture as it penetrates, but it will still punch through. I think that +2 power is fairly logical, and the damage level just represents what it actually does to the stuff behind the armor, not how well the armor protects against it. Likewise with the fragmentation spray.

PS: I do agree with you that the low impact armor scores are absurd, I'm just happy about it not upset. Gang fights would get completely ludicrious otherwise. smile.gif
Austere Emancipator
I'll do it, just to see if I can do divisions (and keep reasonable units, and wrap my head around powers of 10). According to the authors of the article Zenmaxer linked to, 60 GPa would be a very optimistic guess for the tensile strength of carbon nanotubes. We'll assume the tensile strength will remain the same for a braid. The human hair is about 100 microns thick, and we probably agree that's far too thick. Let's go with 10 microns for starters, that might cut into things.

60 x 10^9 N/m^2 x (10^-5 m)^2 = 6 N

The 10 micron (1/10th the human hair) thick monowire will snap from a 0.65kg weight. A slight tug is all it needs. The monowhip would have to be as thick as a human hair to survive combat, at which point you'd have to swing it really fricken hard for it to penetrate skin.
Botch
QUOTE (Zenmaxer @ Sep 22 2004, 11:13 PM)
:: sighs :: ok, first off, it's a smartlinked bow. so you aim, draw, release. You don't draw aim while holding and release.  so the single lift str would be more accurate...

If you think that, then you don't know how to fire a bow, period.

A standard firing technique for compound bows.

0) Aquire target.
1) Hold the bow horizontally in front at waist height.
2) Place arrow across bow and nock.
3) Whilst raising the bow to vertical, push/pull arms apart in a quick motion.
4) Seat fingers against chin or trigger release alongside ear.
5) Re-aquire target.
6) Aim.
7) Release as smoothly as possible.
cool.gif Lower bow.

Whilst it is possible to effectively "shoot from the hip" with a recurve, it is not possible with a compound bow because of the cam system.
Zenmaxer
:: nods :: I know, but with a smart link, you've got a continuous telemetry field and effectively already know where to aim after initial acquisition so it'd be

0) Aquire and lock target.
1) Hold the bow horizontally in front at waist height.
2) Place arrow across bow and nock.
3) Whilst raising the bow to vertical, push/pull arms apart in a quick motion, while aiming.
4) release.

Or at least it could be. now that I think about it, it'd prolly be just like aiming a normal compound bow... still, I think that max lift is probably a closer approximation than base lift... most likely it'd meet in the middle with about a 230 lb pull bow.

btw, generally, braiding it significantly augments effective tensile strength... I think we'd be looking at a 30 micron braid (which will still slice on through prolly)... still not really good enough. ! doh. what if we use multiple braids to form the whip, attaching them all to the same weight and "tying" them at points to insure distribution of tension while still maintaining separate penetration? That actually sounds almost kinda plausible. almost.
Botch
When you get a chance, try it yourself. Find a heavy object with a handle. Whilst upright, lift it from the ground. Now lie on your side on the bed and try to lift the same object up past you body by bending and raising one elbow. Let me know if you find it the same.

I know what poundage bow I find comfortable, I know how difficult it is to do an elevated-leg push-up, and I know my max lift weight. Each of those are different.
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