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Grimtooth
Had an idea for a marine type sammy.

I created the character with SURGE rules and gave him natural gills. He also has an immunity to a natural poison.

The question is what cyber is good?

I bought the ultra sound sight and high frequency hearing. He also has flare comp and sound dampeners.

Will ultra sound work under water like dolphin or whale sonar?

What else is relevant?

The character won't be a deep water diver, though that could be a possibility. He'll mostly be a reef rat. shallow dives.

He has a degree in marine biology. His hobbies include underwater photography and shadowrunning spin.gif

Also are there rules for multiple cyber arms? And would this add to his swimming speed?
Kagetenshi
Give him a dolphin steed and a short sword from Death himself.

~J
toturi
Whatever you do, do not get bone lacing. It adds to your weight, and do get a weapon that works under water. Low light vision should help, ultrasound will help and remember to get Underwater Combat skill.
Grimtooth
Sarcasm not really appreciated
Kagetenshi
It wasnít a serious comment, but I wouldnít call it sarcastic.

If you want serious comments, the Gyrojet pistol is your friend, as are Demolitions and limpet mines.

~J
Moon-Hawk
Yeah, Kage. Don't pick on sea-man! How would you like it if sea-man got all up in your face? Huh?
....sorry. That was uncalled for.

on a more useful note...Ultrasound should work fine underwater. It'll need to be recalibrated for the echo time underwater, but really it should work much better. It's range should be several times farther. You've got all the cyber I can think of as absolutely necessary for aqua-sam.
Moon-Hawk
On an even more useful note: It seems there should be cyber or nano ware similar to symbiotes (and maybe symbiotes could do this) that would facilitate the removal of nitrogen and other gasses from the body and help the person acclimate to different depths more rapidly.
Ooh, also the cold environment adaptation from, what was it, SOTA'63? Even tropical water shouldn't be uncomfortably hot, but cold water will be common.
Grimtooth
Thank you Moon-Hawk.


The only issue i can see is that he will be one BIG sonar echo out in the water.

Active ping going on all the time.

No other vision enhancers though as the ultra sound will only be used in deeper, darker water.

On the subject of the gyrojet. The seeker heads need a designator. Laser, micorwave, or radar. Which would work best in water? Can the designator be designd for Ultra sound? or would you a different colored laser for water?
toturi
QUOTE (Grimtooth)
On the subject of the gyrojet. The seeker heads need a designator. Laser, micorwave, or radar. Which would work best in water? Can the designator be designd for Ultra sound? or would you a different colored laser for water?

You know, I never really figured out why did people need to put seeker heads on their gyrojet rounds. You have one skill to lock on, another to shoot the damned weapon. I can understand if one guy has a designator and the other has the gun but...

I would recommend a gunlight on the gyrojet pistol.
Kagetenshi
It isnít full sonar by any stretch of the imagination, so while nonsubtle itíd probably take either someone looking for you specifically or someone in full paranoia mode to notice (or just a scientific vessel, those are annoyingly attentive).

For the seeker heads, a laser ought to work but at extremely reduced range. Seekers probably arenít the best way to do it. Maybe some variant of the grenadelink to set up an airburst (waterburst) situation, since explosions underwater are so nasty.

~J
Moon-Hawk
True. He would be actively pinging anytime he used it.
Low-light and thermo would also be useful. Low-light would be useful at anything below the surface and above absolute darkness. Thermo would be weird, but still useful in unconventional ways.
For the designator, definitely high powered laser. Ultrasound is not directional enough. You couldn't be sure it's following the right echo. Radar and microwave don't penetrate water well enough. Laser is the least of many evils. You'll need a high powered laser, and the range will be cut down, but it's your only option.
I'm not sure what color laser you'd want for water, probably still red, but I'm not sure.
Grimtooth
Alright i think i'll dump the seeker heads and the designator.

too complicated to worry about.
Grimtooth
Moon-Hawk you mentioned that the pc would still have to worry about depths and its affects.

When do the effects of depths set in?

When is nitrogen narcosis or oxygen toxcicty an issue?

What would be his maximum depth with only gills and a modified (for gills) wet suit ?

toturi
Depth effects start is from 0m by Canon.

When safe diving time is violated.

Max depth 15m.
Moon-Hawk
Official SR rules for diving are listed in, ummmm, cannon companion? I think? Somebody back me up on this?
The gills help a lot of these problems, but there is still risk when ascending too rapidly. It's pretty tough to descent too rapidly to actually risk being crushed, but very easy to ascent too quick. I was thinking it'd be cool if he had some cyber to help get the dissolved gasses out of his body when coming up so that he could go from a saturation dive to the surface without spending an hour and a half or more to do it.
toturi
With only gills, his max depth is only 15m.
Moon-Hawk
It's still deadly to come straight up from a saturation dive at 15m. I'm not sure how well the rules reflect this, though. Books at home.
Botch
Check out Cyberpirates! it has most of the info.

Tell me if I am wrong, but I don't think the frequency used by ultrasound is expressly stated so maybe you could use one associated with aquatic mammals.

IMO Oxy-rush nanites are the best for diving as they are unaffected by depth mods.
Chance359
A few years back TSS did an article called "Seven Samurai" the last one was an underwater operator.
FlakJacket
Cyberfins would be useful- also double as hand razors.
Rev
There is more stuff about deep sea in target:wastelands.

If there is a low temperature tolerance nanotech mod in sota 2063, otherwise I think any reasonable gm would let you invert the high temperature tolerance one.

Synthacardium and enhanced articulation would be good for some more swimming dice.
Tanka
No, not many "reasonable" GMs would allow an inverted high-temperature tolerance. Why? Low-temp requires something to generate heat so you don't freeze to death. Thusly requiring energy. Thusly needing something to constantly put in "food" every time you went empty on energy-creation materials.

High-temp and low-temp are two vastly different things.
GenoSicK
If you consider that swimming is the same thing as running, Hydraulic jack would be a killer.

Trasnducer with a radio, so you'll be able to communicate.

Protectiv Covers for the eyes.

Maybe, alternatively, you can see with your gm to create someting equivalent to Kid Stealth's leg. With the same properties : +1 running (swimming) multiplier, +2 power for kick attack.
If you take that, I would recommend quickness enhancement. And you can place the hydraulic jack in it too. And magnetic cyberlimbs would be great on ship's hulls.

Extended volume would be good, mainly for the -3TN fatigues, allowing you to swim for a LONG time, and also for those moments when you HAVE to retain your breath.

Nictitating membrane, to get rid of those mask. (and that can replace protectiv covers)

Synthecardium, for the quick you want in speed.

Digestive expansion, for the fun of feeding with seaweed. grinbig.gif


As I think again, the combo, synthecardium, "Kid Stealth", cyberfins, quickness enhancement and hydraulic jacks is the best you can do to swim the same speed you run.


OH ! And don't forget the edge Water Sprite (5 if possible).
FlakJacket
QUOTE (GenoSicK)
If you consider that swimming is the same thing as running, Hydraulic jack would be a killer.

Um, I'm not really seeing how having extendable legs would make you swim faster. :/
Tanka
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
QUOTE (GenoSicK @ Sep 23 2004, 10:10 PM)
If you consider that swimming is the same thing as running, Hydraulic jack would be a killer.

Um, I'm not really seeing how having extendable legs would make you swim faster. :/

It would if they had giant flaps put on the end of them! rotfl.gif
GenoSicK
Well, i don't see them as really extendable, more like a basic but more efficient muscle replacement (a bit like the rams from CP2020, see what i mean ?)
Rev
QUOTE (tanka @ Sep 23 2004, 10:06 PM)
No, not many "reasonable" GMs would allow an inverted high-temperature tolerance.  Why?  Low-temp requires something to generate heat so you don't freeze to death.  Thusly requiring energy.  Thusly needing something to constantly put in "food" every time you went empty on energy-creation materials.

High-temp and low-temp are two vastly different things.

I could claim easily that high-temp tolerance requires something to eliminate heat, and is therefore impossible.

The main mechanism for eliminating heat in humans is sweating, thus you need to constantly put in "water" every time you go empty on sweating materials.

Actually heat is a physiologically harder problem for a large animal like a human, very hot environments are notable for their lack of large endothermic animals (camels don't live in the hottest deserts, they can just cross stretches of them, and they are pretty much top of the line), while in very cold ones large endothermic animals are very sucessfull (polar bears, reindeer, whales, seals, emperor penguins, etc live thier whole lives in the coldest parts of the world). Brown fat can more efficiently convert food to heat than some of the mechanisms adult humans use (eg shivering), and even adult humans have a small amount of brown fat (infants, bears, and squirrels have a lot more). In addition large parts of the body can be allowed to drop well below normal core temperature as long as they don't freeze without permenant damage, birds are very good about that. Some mammals can drop thier body temperatures by many degrees, remain somewhat active then raise it back up rapidly when necessary. The strategy in hot environments is to simply be inactive or to seek microclimates to avoid the heat (such as burrows). Humans are already one of the more heat tolerant large animals so we would also be more difficult to further optimize in that direction.

Increased food intake in the cold would be a good side effect though.
Tanka
Releasing heat just puts out a higher spectrum thermographic signature, so you'd be easier to spot by Trolls/Dwarves/people with thermovision of some sort. Outside of that, it takes nothing. (Save sweating. Sweating is the body's natural way of cooling down quicker.)
lacemaker
I'm thinking case fans for the body, and maybe a heat pipe/heat sink arrangement. Bu that's probably just because my home computer keeps overheating and I've been trying to cool it down.
Tanka
So you want an aircraft carrier for a metahuman? (Well, something that sounds like one, at least.)
mfb
maybe a liquid cooling system. you could carry a fishtank around on your back, see...
Tanka
Nah, man. Liquid nitrogen! Nothing like good ol' cooled N2 for your own enjoyment (and perverse pleasure).
lacemaker
Back on topic there's some interesting stuff on aquatic gear done on the web for CP2020 which should convert relatively easily - I don't think I can dig it up due to my work's filter, but try searching for cp2020 and torpedo maybe...
Grimtooth
Well the idea i had in mind was more of a concept character

Well educated, eco-minded, associate professor (day job lvl2) working on his doctorate in Marine Biology.

The sammy thing was a side line for his eco issues and tuition.

I chose to go with high skills and attributes as opposed to high nuyen.

I only took 200K nuyen.

but the suggestion about the radio and transducer was good

I think i might dump msucle replacements lvl 2 and get something else.
RangerJoe
Now that's how I'm going to subsidize my paltry grad student salary! biggrin.gif
Grimtooth
I told you it was a concept character!!!!! grinbig.gif
Grimtooth
if i were to get comm gear what do i need other than the transducer?

Commlink or Radio?

Which one can both send and receive transmissions?
Rev
QUOTE
Releasing heat just puts out a higher spectrum thermographic signature, so you'd be easier to spot by Trolls/Dwarves/people with thermovision of some sort. Outside of that, it takes nothing. (Save sweating. Sweating is the body's natural way of cooling down quicker.)


Absorbing heat could raise it up, both are pretty much themodynamic nonsense though. Any cold environment is going to be colder than our bodies, any hot one hotter than our bodies. You can get a bit of benefit from things like that when in a cold, but sunny environment, or if you were overheating due to excercise in a relatively cool environment. Our bodies already radiate whatever heat they can when overheated, and there isn't much you can do to a hairless animal with pretty large surface area to volume to make it radiate more. SOTA 2063 talks about increasing blood flow to the skin, but really we already do that, thats why one gets flushed when hot. Similarly we reduce blood flow to the skin when cold.

Heh, the best part is that low temperature tolerance is in sota 2063, I just didn't remember it.
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Grimtooth)

On the subject of the gyrojet. The seeker heads need a designator. Laser, micorwave, or radar. Which would work best in water? Can the designator be designd for Ultra sound? or would you a different colored laser for water?

I don't see a laser designator as your best option. The deeper you go underwater, you lose some of the color spectrum. Maybe your guy won't go that deep though, or maybe it wouldn't affect functionality.

Red is the last color you'd want though, as it is one of the first in the spectrum to be absorbed. I was diving in Hawaii with a buddy who cut his hand and bled green.

I made sure to check if his ears were pointy when we got back up! cool.gif
Kagetenshi
Laser may be bad, but are the others really absorbed/diffused less quickly?

~J
Fygg Nuuton
college student by day, dolphin ninja by night
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Laser may be bad, but are the others really absorbed/diffused less quickly?

~J

dunno, but it seems to me that they must have something planned for it, considering that's gotta be a large part of the market for the weapon.
lacemaker
QUOTE (Rev)
QUOTE
Releasing heat just puts out a higher spectrum thermographic signature, so you'd be easier to spot by Trolls/Dwarves/people with thermovision of some sort. Outside of that, it takes nothing. (Save sweating. Sweating is the body's natural way of cooling down quicker.)


Absorbing heat could raise it up, both are pretty much themodynamic nonsense though. Any cold environment is going to be colder than our bodies, any hot one hotter than our bodies. You can get a bit of benefit from things like that when in a cold, but sunny environment, or if you were overheating due to excercise in a relatively cool environment. Our bodies already radiate whatever heat they can when overheated, and there isn't much you can do to a hairless animal with pretty large surface area to volume to make it radiate more. SOTA 2063 talks about increasing blood flow to the skin, but really we already do that, thats why one gets flushed when hot. Similarly we reduce blood flow to the skin when cold.

Heh, the best part is that low temperature tolerance is in sota 2063, I just didn't remember it.

Actually there's a product on the market that rapidly lowers the body's temperature by circulating cold water through a glove. The body's heat-exchange is far from optimally designed, and I'd think there would be a lot of little things you could do to improve it.

Things get more interesting when the ambient temperature is higher than the body's, I agree, but provided you had an insulated reserve of some heat absorbing substance you could still probably cool yourself in the short term.
Ombre
How about a set of Magnetic Anchors to scale boat hulls for boarding operations ? Or a powerful Optical Laser to breach the hull?
I guess that the Ultrasound sight used for sonar purposes would need a Rangefinder which is basically an ultrasound beam with a module to interpret the echo and calculate the distance...
FXcalibur
Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but a Colt Water Carbine might be a good weapon - an SMG for underwater use, and easier to get than the gyrojet, IIRC.
FlakJacket
Yeah, but that's a bit iffy from what I remember. Don't really know much about firearms, but whenever the thing has come up in discussions people that I respect on the issue haven't been all that impressed IIRC.
mfb
from what i know about firearms--less than Raygun, more than FlakJacket--it's a decent concept. ceramic and corrosion-resistant metal components, water-sealed magazine and magazine well (water won't keep the ammo from being fired, but god only knows what polluted water might do, ergo you want to keep your ammo away from the water as long as possible), overengineered action to compensate for water resistance. the main problem with firing weapons underwater that i'm aware of is that the water resistance can slow the cycling action down, making the gun jam more often; also, in the longer term, dunking your weapon means more corrosion, also leading to more jamming.
Kagetenshi
A gyrojet pistol's avail is 4/48 hours. By comparison, a water carbine is 5/48 hours.

~J
FlakJacket
QUOTE (mfb)
From what I know about firearms--less than Raygun, more than FlakJacket [SNIP]

Not that difficult. Point the end with the hole in it at the other other guy and keep pulling the trigger until it stops going bang and then reload pretty much sums it up for me. wink.gif
mfb
haha, yeah. s'what i figured when i said that.
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