I don't have my books with me, so forgive me, if there is an obvious answer to this, but I was wondering if there is a limit on what spirits you can channel. One of my PCs was talking about channeling a watcher, which I thought was crazily pimped, and said that I was sure there was a rule against it, but he said he could find nothing in the book on it. Or what about an ally spirit, you lose all remaining services when you channel but ally's don't have "services" so that could be cheesed too then??

it's a technicality, but Channelling is described as working on any spirit that owes services to the mage. watchers work on a time basis, not a services basis, ergo...

:: grins :: there was a terrible, terrible glitch involving this and blood spirits, which I believe do technically owe service to the mage.... though I am not sure, thinking about it, if this is truly legitimate given that they also have no specific service count, that I can think of.

bzzzzt! shoulda used a lifeline, zen. blood spirits use services just like elementals and nature spirits. MitS page 134, third sentence under Summoning Blood Spirits.

:: laughs :: so I'm lazy and optimistic. I really wanted to believe that they'd seen channeled blood spirits coming.

*shudder* not only have i seen it coming, i've (or, well, one of my characters has) seen it arrive.

Braz,
Don't let them use watchers or allied spirits. If not for game effect, for balance.

SlotJOCKEY, ultimate utility character
"I am just here to teach the children"

Let them use Watchers, but divide their intelligence by 10 minus Watcher's force, to a minimum of division by two.

~J

eh? why?

I would assume to reflect a Watcher's inherent stupidity.
,
I think a good rule is to allow a Spirit to be Channeled only if they actually owe a Service, as mentioned above.

You can't channel watchers, because they dont owe services - they exist for specific timespans. Note that the things that watchers can do are specifically labeled as "tasks" rather than "services."

Fortune: not only is that a good rule, that is the canon rule. Pg 109, T:AL "The initiate must have a spirit that owes him services present in astral space and have it come into contact with his aura."

<stupidity>

What if you told your Ally spirit to believe it owed you a service? In Harlequin's Back it specifically states that the way a character beliefs and views on magic directly affects his\her\its interaction with it.

</stupidity>

I think you would also have to convince *yourself* that this lie you just made up is true. Which could be difficult.

as i recall, it was mentioned several times. didn't do much flame-quelling.

Blame my onsetting senility.

I'd personally not allow an Ally spirit to be used for channeling, but I guess that's my own view on it.

And Watchers, that's a no-no.

One thought though, could a psionic mage channel a thought form? MITS states that the Psionic is limited by what he thinks is doable with the powers of the mind. Well, if they can conjur then they have no problems with that, and I personally don't see why a thought form couldn't be channeled - think of it as an ally lending you his strength to fight a specific foe.

:: bows before Blakkie:: nice shot, mate.

I think I'd allow channeling of thought forms, because frankly psions get gimped hard enough as it is, and really deserve some small bit of power.

Just my 0.02¥:

1. Watchers do not owe services => no channeling them

2. Allies do not explicitly owe "services" (as game term) either. But they must obey any order their master gives to them, which can be seen as an infinite number of services until they gain freedom or are banished. A mage wants to channel his ally: Sure go ahead. The powers of allies are meager in comparison to other spirits (3D movement sucks in comparison to a levitate spell, immunity normal weaposn is provided by any spirit that can be channeled, mind link won't work, just as materialization) and to top it all: Once the channeling ends, all owed services are used up, the spirit becomes "free" and thus may either return to his metaplane or become a "free spritit" => Extremely "safe" way of setting your ally free

3. Bound "free spirits". They explicitly owe an infinite number of services. But what's true for allies is true for them as well: They'll automatically become free after channeling end. Given the fact that the majority of bound "free spirits" hold a serious grudge against their master (who stole their freedom), this is going to be a rather dangerous thing, since once the spirit has regained his freedom he cannot be rebound by the same magaician ever after ...

So options 2 and 3 should only be the last resort, when everything else fails

If you were quick you could just rebind the free spirit.

~J

thought forms owe services, so there shouldn't be anything preventing a psion from channelling it, if the psion knows channelling. just think of it as reinforcing the flesh with psionic power.

i don't think the master could re-bind the spirit. once the master releases a free spirit, he can never bind it again. the question is, does using up all of its services, infinite though they may be, count as releasing it?

Hermetic Troll combat mage with dikoted polearm, anyone?

~J

not really. Immunity/Normal Weapons is hardened armor, for almost all intents and purposes. the only thing against which it doesn't act as hardened armor is killing hands, weapon foci, and elemental manips. an important difference, to be sure, but it's still nice to be able to ignore most small-arms fire and some large-arms fire.

eh, i usually follow the FAQ. it's probable, at least in this case, that Immunity was meant to act as hardened armor against whatever the power applied to.

because they're not exactly the same. hardened armor is useless against killing hands, weapon foci, and elemental manips. attacks from these sources are common enough in SR that the differentiation is important. as for why the powers would've been worded differently in the first place, it's probably because it was a mistake. i mean, for pete's sake, there was an entire section in M&M titled "chemestry"; dropping a phrase is not outside the realm of possibility.

as far as the ammo modifiers, the wording in the book is "burst-fire or anything else". that includes auto-fire, EX-X ammo, etcetera. APDS and AV ammo are later referenced as halving the hardened armor power (it's on the next page, so it's easy to miss).

because, for melee weapons, (Str+whatever) is the base power of the weapon. however, you're right--the descriptions of hardened armor in SR3 and CC don't include ammo type modifiers. sounds like something worth asking for clarification on.

eh, a modifier would be something like dikote. the damage code listed in the stat block is the base damage. just because the base damage is variable, depending on who's wielding it, doesn't make it not base.

many posters here do not, in fact, take the FAQ as gospel, however. i tend to, but others disagree. (i call those people 'sore losers', but that's because i'm an ass!)

that brings up an interesting point, though. apparently, the FAQ writer believes that ammo type is irrelevant to the hardened armor power.

ah, i'll probably change my tune when the FAQ says something i don't like.

Then take a look at the FAQ’s statement on invisibility and Sensors.

~J

LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU

edit: joking aside, i don't have a real problem with the FAQ's take on invis vs sensors. their basic stance is, "it's up to the GM, here are some things to consider". can't argue with that!

Other than the fact that everyone has now officially gotten off topic, here is my opinion.
1. Watchers shouldn't be such a big problem considering the limitation you have on the force and the bonus you would receive because of it. ( they only have a maximum force equal to half your magic rating round up). So, it would be more chease to say no on watchers but watch a Grade 1 initiate Shaman with Channeling use a Force 6 or more nature spirit. Especially since the channeling is an even shorter effect than the the time a watcher would normally be arround. So why give the Shaman a huge advantage here since the Shaman would be out of nothing where a mage would be out of a ton of conjuring materials for such a short boost.
2. Watchers can be created to stick arround for long periods of time if you want by spending karma or just purchasing conjuring materials to add to the summoning. I would think twice before wasting one of these. (let us not forget how useful they can be) Not to mention that these can last longer than Nature spirits.
3. If the argument as stated by previous posters is based or partially based off the fact that watchers are here on a time constraint, then so are nature spirits, thus rendering them as possibly being unusable. I personally don't think so, but just going off your logic.
4. An ally spirit absolutely should be able to be used, afterall...you spent the Magic point and tons of Karma to bind him with virtually infinite services that can come back at you. Why not have full range of access to him. But, then again...this is only if you consider an ally spirit to have infinite services and the game mechanics are restricting the channeling ability to a specific word "services" vs. "tasks" instead of the concept or idea behind what they will do for you. A task implies they are not serving a master, but only accomplishing a goal, yet they serve me. I don't buy the whole play on words bit. Sounds like we are playing Magic: The Gathering again.
5. I totally agree with the Psionics spirits as mentioned previously. No contest there.

Again, keep in mind that the Channeling only works for a few minutes, makes you dual natured, and uses up a possible friend in melee (etc...).

yeah, i mean, the FAQ may just be one opinion--but it's the opinion of the guy in charge of making new SR products, which means it's the opinion that's going to be referred to when rules questions come up during the development of new products.