Hi all, my first post so be kind.

I am developing a Way of the Gun adept and have a few questions.

Firstly, for the Quick Draw simple action (not adept power), I think it describes a character as being able to draw and fire (assuming you get the dice). Logically, would you say that you can draw and perform the aim action instead of firing? I don't think it specifically allows this (could be wrong), but it stands to reason.

Secondly, What are some of ye olde GM's feelings about the Aptitude (Combat Skill) Edge? I know there is a specific caveat in the description about them, but I was basically thinking of using a revolver, and having that natural ability seems more fitting than say, slapping a laser sight on there (something I'd prefer not to do). Same advantage as a LS but more cost for the edge. Would you allow it?

Finally, for the 3 point Quick Strike power from MitS (awesome power btw), it specifically states that your character must be unwounded. One could argue that if the character has pain resistance, the wound should not affect the ability (assuming you are below the threshold but still injured). What do you think?

Thanks.

1) No way in hell! It's quickdraw not quick aim.

2) Perhaps, but if the player took a smartlink or something I'd make em lose it.

3) I'd say that if you didn't suffer a TN mod from the wound then it works.

Well, as I understand it, you have this combo Simple Action of drawing the weapon (with a test), and also being able to fire it with no penalty already. I would imagine a certain amount of aiming happens subsequent to the firing anyway (not to level of achieving any modifier however). SO, instead you might have a combo Simple Action of drawing the weapon (with a test), and instead of briefly aiming and then firing, just keep aiming. You could then fire on your next Simple Action (with -1 TN) or keep on aiming. It doesn't seem unreasonable.

On #3, I'd say it doesn't work (which is, incidentally, the canon interpretation). Even if it isn't affecting you enough for TN mods, it's still probably enough to keep you from acting faster than the guy with Initiative higher than God.

~J

Actually, drawing a weapon is a simple action. If you want to quickdraw, you need a compatible holster and to make a reaction (4) test. One success is enough for you to clear the weapon without having to spend an action. This means that you have your normal 2 simple/1 complex available to you. You can spend them however you like (aiming, firing, etc.) All the adept power does is eliminate the test.

Nope. You don't need a special holster (though you get +2 TN for lacking the proper holster), and it rolls Ready Weapon and Fire into the same Simple Action.

~J

The actual text states that it lets you "draw and immediately fire as a simple action" not "draw as a non-action." The adept power lets you apply the test to non-gun-like weapons, such as claymores.

SR3, page 107. Without a quickdraw holster, the TN goes up 2. So most adept uses of special quickdraw are at a TN of 6.

i allow people to quickdraw and aim instead of fire. to paraphrase canid13, it's quickdraw, not quickshoot.

Sure it does. Just because your arm isn't bleeding dosn't mean it's not hurt. Same goes with your face, chest, and other body parys.

Hey lawman, nice lawman. Don't hurt a person.
*draw-bang-bang-bang-holster*
Froinlaven

It's not even like there is a reason you have to fire. It's not like the Keebler Elves are forcing you to, and there is nothing about a gun that forces you to fire after drawing.

A thought on the Aptitude (Combat Skill)...

It is not, in fact, comparable with a laser sight, since a laser sight has an effective range, can be disabled, or whatever. The aptitude apllies to everything you do with the skill, regardless. This is why it's set apart and is considered a game imbalance in most cases.

There are solutions, however.

I made a character that had an aptitude in Rifles (Sniper), but I didn't just leave it at that. He also has the Flashbacks flaw, which not only cancels out the Edge in value, but also effectively negates the -1 from the Aptitude, since the trigger is the sound of a sniper rifle being fired. What my GM and I agreed on is that whenever Flea (that's the character's name) hears the sound he drops into a flashback immediately, without making the Willpower (6) test. We then roll a die to see how many minutes or rounds (I can't remember which we decided on; I know that the normal application is minutes) the flashback lasts, and write this down. Once his total number of rounds is equal to 40, the Flashbacks flaw is replaced with a Moderate Phobia of Sniper Rifles, which would permanently impose at least a +2 penalty and the strong desire not to use the weapon. The solution and character goal is to spend his first 40 karma eliminating the Flashbacks flaw, at which point he can pick up a Sniper Rifle again. By this point it would be as if he bought the Aptitude, anyway.

Anyway, my point is this: Aptitude is a game imbalance if used for a Combat Skill, and if the GM is going to allow it, they should make the character pay for it. If you're hellbent on taking an Aptitude, I'd suggest something else. One of my running mates has had enormous success with an Athletics aptitude.

Krieger, it would be applied to aptitude pistol so it would generally only apply to short range work. Think about it though, 4 build points versus a pocket's worth of nuyen. And all that for only marginal gain vs the LS. Wouldn't a character whose whole focus in life is skill with a pistol warrant an aptitude for it?

no, he'd warrant a high level of skill in Pistols. combat aptitudes are, generally speaking, a bad idea. after all, it's not like the aptitude doesn't stack with the laser sight, or with a smartlink.

True, but as part of my flavor, I would eschew those technological methods. In fact, I'm using a revolver so ony 1 shot per pass.

*shrug* the book doesn't rule it out, long as you can clear it with your GM.

i allow combat skill aptitude, but you have to choose a type of weapons.

for instace, aptitude"pistols" is no go but aptitude "peacemaker" id allow

What is the problem exactly? The character needs to pay 4BP for the Aptitude, so what is the problem? Do you think that the Edge is undercost? Do you forbid Otaku from taking Computer Aptitude? Or Riggers from taking an Aptitude in any of the vehicular skills?

Or that they must have a Flaw to counter that? Like Otaku with Aptitude Computer must have Phobia: Matrix?

yes, actually, i do forbid otaku from taking Computer Aptitude. the book even reccomends doing so.

It isn't quite so bad with Riggers and Vehicles since they have to take each type of vehicle seperately. Mages should be forbidden from taking aptitude in sorcery, though.

I'd also like to put a little math into this just to show how bad aptitude pistols in the hands of a pistol adept can be without something to counter it. So aptitude+SL-2=TN 2 base for shots, TN 3 for a called shot. 9M base damage, skill of 6, IA of 3. Call a shot to bypass armor and you're typically looking at a 9D+ (9 dice*2/3 success rate=6 successes). A body 18 troll is typically going to stage that down to a mere D wound (18 dice*1/9 success rate=2 successes) unless he dodged some of it or uses karma. If he doesn't go down you shoot him again. Otherwise your second shot is at another guy (this time don't call it), and you'll make him face a (9-armor)D+, which has a pretty good chance of either gacking him outright or putting some serious hurt on him.

The problem is that aptitude (combat skills) have the potential to be large game-breakers. It doesn't mean that giving one to a character automatically makes you a munchkin, and automatically makes your character badass, it just means that the potential is there for something like that to completely ruin the experience for the group.

That being said, I can think of plenty of perfectly good reasons for letting a character have one, but, much like the example Krieger gave, I think you should have to work for it. That doesn't even mean giving yourself a flaw to balance it out, because then what is the point? I think having sufficiently good backstory would be good enough (it'd have to be a damn good reason, though...).

If anyone here has ever played Metal Gear Solid... it kind of reminds me of something Meryl says in that game when Snake asks her to trade her desert eagle for his socom. "I've been using [guns] since I was 8 years old. I'm more comfortable with this gun than I am with a bra."
Yep. Sufficient back-story. Heh...

Well, okay. Thanks for the input. I'd ask my GM, except I don't have one. That's why I was seeing what a few of you fellas thought about it. I was basically wanting to avoid as much technology as possible for my character, and that's why I gravitated toward Aptitude (Pistol) rather than just slapping a laser on there. I figured the benefit is about the same (with a bit of versatility going to the edge).

What would you rate as more valuable: The Quick Strike power (always goes first in 1 pass of a combat turn), or Improved Reflexes 2 (+4R +2d6)? Both cost 3 points. IR2 seems to be the better deal, but there is just something cool about almost always getting to go first no matter what. For flavor, I think I'll still go with QS.

I'd agree with you when you say that IR2 is a better deal, because not only do you go towards the top of the order, but it allows you to act in subsequent Initiative Passes, since you'll always have an Initiative Score of 10 or higher. But if you want to take QS for the flavor, more power to you.

Yeah, and those R dice for surprise tests are nice too. But just imagine facing off against some super-fast Samurai wired with the latest and greatest. Draw-Bang! Too slow my friend. There is just something righteous about 'natural' skill beating machine.

Aptitude in any of the "we reccomend you dont allow aptitude with these" skills is a bad idea. We figured "oh whats the harm" and a few months later knew first hand. Just say no.

As for QS vs IR2: theres times you want to go first no matter what, and theres times you want to have several actions. They both come up, they both have merit, and situation pending theyre both incredibly good. Pick whichever one you want, and a few initiations later get the other. Nothing beats acting several times and choosing one of them to go first.

It took me a good 10 seconds to remember where the "No ticket" quip came from(at least where it came from in the Jay and Silent Bobverse). Ah the train scene in Dogma, how funny you are...

Touché.

And for Harrison Ford ad-libs.

Indy, I remember now, thanks for reminding me.

Yeah, but the black clad guy with the great scimitar was probably only running boosted reflexes 2 and a synaptic accelerator. No wonder Jones got the drop on 'im. If that whip of his had been monofilament, those flicks woulda been 'R' for sure.