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Zeel De Mort
Decrease (Charisma):

Okay at first I thought the TN would be the target's attribute, which would be insane. But even 10-essence (so 9 or 10 in a lot of cases, dunno how you round that one) isn't too tough when you're faced with a troll beast who has all stats through the roof, bar Cha which is sitting at 1 or 2. They resist the spell with Cha, so a couple of successes and you'll have the attribute down to 0 which means the victim "stands about mindlessly".

For some characters this'll be pretty handy to use against, and harder to resist than the standard manabolt.

Just a thought...
Of cause you have to sustain it. Big problem there.

Zeel De Mort
Not really a big problem. If you use that tactic a lot you can get a sustaining focus for it. If not, you've got a +2 or even just +1 on your target numbers, depending on whether you have focused concentration.

In any case, while you sweat a little the troll death machine is totally immobile and your buddies can go in and chop him up in no time.
Friggas Ring
Hrm, why didn't I think of that? Can anyone remind me where it says that the Decrease Attribute spell can drop the Attribute to 0 and that a character with an Attribute of 0 disables them? I'd check it out myself, but I'm at work.
Kanada Ten
It says it in the spell's description that attributes lowered to zero incapacitate the target.

Sustaining foci must be placed on the target and a plus 1 or 2 to all target numbers is a huge deal compared to the instant, almost easy kill of manabolt.
Zeel De Mort
Yes, on p193 of the main rulebook. The spell description says you can reduce an attribute to 0 and also details the effects of it - paralysation/standing about mindlessly for physical/mental attributes respectively.
Because, sometimes you want to make use of the heavy dolly, celephane roll and the SR fed-ex equivalent
Zeel De Mort
Oops, forgot about that with sustaining foci. Fair point.

Yeah usually the manabolt is a good standard answer to most problems. Just sometimes this one is a decent alternative though.

+1 or 2 isn't too bad for a mage if all he's doing is more spellcasting - he should easily be able to center that away. You did take centering early on, right? smile.gif
Kremlin KOA
note specific spell focus for this spell, the ugly stick
a) Health spells are by default "touch range" => in order to be on the safe side you'd need a LOS-version of that spell => Higher drain. Potentially knocking out a mage (unless he has a trauma damper)

b) While I do know that the canon spell description says that the reduction of any mental attribute to zero leads to a lobotomy (while the spell is sustained), the very same rules say for characters that are turned into ghouls and hit the charisma 0 marker that they are reduced to mindless but still very active beasts. Sort of a contradiction there. Also note that non-sentinent critters do not have a charisma value (which is as good as a zero there, since normally no attribute can actually be taken at that value)

=> At least in my rounds a Decrease attribute (Charisma) spell won't incapacitate the common charisma 1 or charisma 2 combat machine, no matter what the spell description might suggest. Neither on PC, nor on NPC side ... Reducing INT or WIL will work, just as the reduction of physical attributes may lead to paralysis (with the possible consequence of death due to lacking lung activity)
Kremlin KOA
Cochise, why not? charisma also oncludes self confidense, someone paralysed by a complete lack of confidense is realistic, not to mention without this balancer munchkins have one more excuse to use charisma as a dump stat
A high-Drain spell with touch range (changing that raises the Drain even more), with a TN of 9 or 10 against the typical fractional Essense sammies you run into, and even for someone with a Charisma of 1 you still need 2 net successes (don't forget, one of the sammies teammates could be using Spell Defense on him). All this to keep someone out of action only for as long as you keep sustaining the spell. People keep bringing up this spell like it's this super-effective munchkin stopper, but it isn't. A stunbolt is far more effective most of the time.
Maybe, but aganst a .01 essence SS with a dump CHA stat of one... It could be useful.
Hmm... odds of rolling two 10's on 6 dice aren't good. Especially when he only has to roll a single 6, assuming you take this spell at max force. Getting those two net successes will take quite some doing.

Does one of the math whizzes want to take a crack at this?
Damnit. Ok, let me do this again


1/6 X 3/6 = 3/36 = 1/12


1/12 X 1/6 = 1/12 X 2/12 = 2/144 = 1/72

1% X 10 = 10% /2 = 5%

Which is weird, because experementaly for me it's more like 25%
Herald of Verjigorm
first, 1/6 * 3/6 is 3/36 or 1/12, not 1/4

so the caster has (sorcery)/12 expected successes and the defender has (cha)/6 expected successes

assuming target cha = 1 and sorcery useable dice = 12

the caster will get one success on average, while the defender rarely gets any
this doesn't matter for the defender if the caster can't get enough successes for any effect at all, so it's not a statistically viable process
But the expected successes are largely irrelevant. What maters is getting 2+ net successes.

Unfortunately my stats lessons are some 5 years old and poorly used CURSE YOU D20 WITH YOUR EASY TO CALCULATE PROBABILITIES

QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)
Cochise, why not? charisma also oncludes self confidense, someone paralysed by a complete lack of confidense is realistic, not to mention without this balancer munchkins have one more excuse to use charisma as a dump stat

a) Charisma isn't so much about selfconfidence (which can be equally strong associated with willpower), it's a mixture of looks and how people perceive you and what you do with what they perceive on a concious and subconcious level.

b) As I tried to point out, critters do not have a charisma attribute. Still they aren't forced into non-action. Even more important is the fact that characters (and NPCs alike) can also have their Charisma reduced to zero by HMHVV[Krieger]. If that happens, they become mindless beasts, but they are still far from being paralysed by that effect. Hell, they become even more aggressive, because they ultimately are turned into savage critters (that's the reason why I find the non-existant charisma for critters to be an charisma 0 equivalent), that are driven by mere instinct. Now look at those generic, cybered combat machines with (btw. I dislike the far too often used term "munchkin" at that point) charisma 1:
They are usually portrayed as mean, psychotic and extremely agressive beings. Now if one such character is lucky enough to survive a ghoul transformation (essence before infection barely above 1), he'll end up as a really scary and heavily cybered beast, just living out his instincts (which already made him a "monster" while he was still sentinent). So when someone tries to tell me that the Decrease attribute spell should really be different at that point, that's fine for me, but I say: no it shouldn't.

c) It has already been pointed out that the chances of successfully decreasing the charisma of a heavily cybered target by one single point are pretty slim, so the spell as such (even with LOS-modification) can't be used to hold charcters at bay that fit the pattern of what you call "munchkin". Especially since such "munchkins" usually tend to have the magic resistance edge as well.

d) As soon as the so-called "munchkin" learns about this trick (and the idea has surfaced to often to escape from the eyes), he'll just increase his charisma to 2. The statistic chances of getting 2 net successes against TN 9+ are slim. Getting 4 is too slim a chance to even count on it

This has come up in my group before, and we don't realy agree on the paralysis thing. What we came up with is other things that could happen with an attribute at zero:

str: You don't have the strenght to move, and stand there.
qui: This one, you are paralyesd by slowness.
bod: You can move, but you'll hurt youself: ie, if you lift your arm, it'll probably fall off or at least break.
int: Can't tell friend from foe, stare aimlessly
cha: Dosn't care friend or foe, attacks whatever is closest to him like a wild beast.
wil: total apathy, doesn't care to do anything.

Sure, it can be hard to get off, but the effects can be worth it.
Moonstone Spider
I've always been perpetually ticked off at the fact that most damaging health spells, such as decrease charisma, use essence as the TN while most helpful ones (Aside from heal and a couple others) use the attribute affected. It seems wrong that draining your own essence provides a protection from magic while not making it any harder to recieve bonuses. And it gimps Shapeshifters even more.
Zeel De Mort
Hoo! Reduce (Charisma) on a low Charisma shapeshifter character. That's gonna hurt.
Probably not the best option against a Fox 'shifter, though. biggrin.gif
Yea, that is a good point Spider, should they be switched?
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Sustaining foci must be placed on the target and a plus 1 or 2 to all target numbers is a huge deal compared to the instant, almost easy kill of manabolt.

What do you think the slingshot adept is for? Pass it to him and let him slingshot the guy with it. Just make sure its adhesive somehow... grinbig.gif
Wounded Ronin
Man, SR needs Plasma Grenades from Halo.....


Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Wutasumi)
Yea, that is a good point Spider, should they be switched?

No, because this is a prime example of *WHY* there's a huge difference in the way the two types of spells work. Sometimes game balance is a bigger deal than logic, and this is one of those times.
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Man, SR needs Plasma Grenades from Halo.....

Splat Glue and a Grenade Launcher?
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