Having trouble verifying my ruling on a dispute last game. There were a few opinions around the table and the easiest way to solve the problem is this: What tests don't wound modifiers apply to?

Damage resistance tests are the only test to which it does not apply

damage resistance and drain.

You shouldn't apply wound modifiers to the Body(4) Test after taking a Deadly Physical, where you try to avoid losing limbs, eyes, ears, etc. (Deadly Wounds and Permanent Damage, SR3.127).

Nor to the Body Test (Healing Physical Damage, 126) to determine if you can heal on your own. Your physical wound level is already accounted for in the Wound Table, and your stun damage doesn't affect whether you'll be able to stabilize.

I might rule that decking wouldn't be affected, as the physical body is shut off from what he is feeling.

what you're feeling, maybe. but your body is still going to be going nuts, reacting to the damage, which will affect you mentally.

Considering you can take physical damage while in the matrix I think the penalties should defiantly apply.

Edward

You could probably add to that list any tests the character does while using Astral Projection. Stun Modifiers would still apply, but I'm not sure about Physical.

Of course, Fortune and Wutasumi, I'm sure you're aware that book rules indicate that Physical wound penalties apply to tests made while Projecting or Decking. I assume Dashifen was asking for book rules, not house rules.

But I also thought maybe it was in the book, and players were arguing with the book.

For a long time we played exactly like you , Backgammon...and actually I still have a problem not applying wound modifiers to Drain...after all, if a magician is wounded, how come pain doesn't interfere with his/her capacity to handle drain? It must be quite a challenging thing to become a sort of conductive material for astral energy coursing through your body, and I guess pain could distract you and make this feat much more difficult...
On top of that, drain Target Numbers are not such a big deal since 2nd ed (don't you remember 2050 when a Force 5 spell had a Drain TN of 5 instead of 1/2 Force ?) so it seems to me that wound modifiers could balance the game...after all your chromed-to-max street sam suffers from wound modifiers (okay, okay, unless he's got some niffty pain editor/trauma damper bioware)...

I never had a problem with it, the logic is that when you put magical force through your body, that because your body is held together by magic (At least thats how I interpreted essence) it dosn't affect your body in any way, because it kinda is your body.

I'm not sure I can agree...after all handling drain is Willpower test, not a Body Test, which , IMHO, implies that it is an act of will, that you have to concentrate and focus yourself on the delicate task of controlling the flux of raw mana running through your body/aura...as such, pain should be a handicap and make it harder to concentrate, hence wound modifiers on the drain resistance test...

OK Backgammon and Tortui. I see the reference, and the reading of it. Is that the clearest spot where this reading is supported? Weve had it both ways and if theres a clearer spot Id be glad to have it pointed out to me.

I'm with Ombre on this one. Anyway, I shot an email over to shadowrunrpg.com to get an official ruling, so should be resolved in a few days.

when astrally projecting, you use Willpower to resist damage. should you take wound mods for that, too?

We consider it a huge game balance thing also. Currently, mages have to be real careful about taking drain, cause when you start you don't stop. A mage with Serious stun isn't even going to try to cast anything, or he'll probably pass out. If injury doesn't apply to drain, then that totally changes the risk mages face. Not being able to cast spells very well because you have TN mods is one thing, not even trying cause you'll pass out is another.

That makes mages definatly more limited in our games, but that's not necessarely a bad thing. Magic IS very powerful, and this definatly curbs it. When we do have mages playing, they have to plan what spells they're gonna use and that plan always involves a "by then I'll be too drained to support anymore" phase.

*shrug* your game, i guess. it's never been a problem, in the games i've played.

Yeah... we've never played otherwise is all. If we changed now, it'd be weird. Had we always played with wounds not affecting drain, there wouldn't be a problem I guess. It's just switching between the two is a huge differance.

To me, Drain Resistance is just another form of Damage Resistance except you are doing it to yourself.

So, if you say that pre-existing wound modifiers apply to drain resistance, do they also apply to resisting combat spells (especially mana versions)? Your description implies that the effect is similar.

I think that the shock and pain change how the character can deal with drain as well as more damage. I also see damage resistance as how well the the character can "roll with the punch' explain small people with high body scores, and of course the combat pool. so should likely apply wound mods in this case. I cannot wait for a official answer.

I'm not sure I understand the point of adding Wound Modifiers to Drain resistance. As was said above, resisting Drain is exacly the same as resisting damage. Do you demand that the Street Sam add his wound modifiers to his Body resistance roll every time he tries to resist damage from getting shot?

Wound Modifiers apply when the wounded person tries to accomplish something, ie. shoot, pick a lock, drive a car, cast a spell, etc. The act of doing is what is made more difficult by being wounded, not the act of resisting.

You're kinda dodging the question guys. The real question is wether a gunshot and drain are the same thing game-wise, and realisticly.

As far as the game goes, I think the designers were thinking that they were almost the same hence the qualifier about the Specific mods thing.

But realistically, I've never been shot or cast a spell. So i wouldn't know.

Fine, Peduso-Realisticly...

Edited for my protection.

We know CANNON that's how it is, but I'd like to know pedsuo-realisticly.

And jeeze people, quit with the ask a spellcaster line, it's annoying and stupid. At least TRY.

Try what? To compare the real damage of a bullet with the fictional draining that might or might not happen to some fictitious spellcaster?

I gave my opinion. It should be no harder for a wounded spellslinger to shrug off Drain than it would be for a wounded gunbunny to shrug of a hit from a baseball bat. Ther is no concentration involved in resisting the Stun damage, as it's purely a function of the body's own ability to absorb punishment.

Actually, a broken leg does make you more vulnerable to being punched. Stand still while I take this cricket bat to your knee and then we can see how well you handle a stand up fight with me.

wouldn't that be represented by a +tn on my unarmed skill?

I was saying that a broken leg didn't make being punched in the gut more painful

And I've played rugby with a broken leg

It would be. No one's really arguing that damage resistance tests should be modified by wound modifiers. Even if it pretty much is a fact that I'm less likely to take a punch well if I've already been shot, which is basically af act, that damage resistance tests are abstract and it doesn't entirely make sense to modify them. What is being argued is that drain is not directly comparable to physical damage, and that one's ability to not get tired and keep going is going to be impacted by the current state of one's body.

Arethusa. the punch after bullet thing is represented by wounds stacking and filling more boxes, and in my experience "drain" is akin to the 'damage' one takes from pushing onesself too hard athletically YMMV

Damage Resistance and Drain resistance are exactly the same thing, just using different stats.

"Drain is like an attack against the caster by the mana channelled into the spell" (SR3 p. 180).

Both are attempting to reduce damage done to you. Neither should have wound modifiers applied. Frankly, mages have it hard enough with the Drain thing without stacking tn modifiers to their Drain tests.

Think about it. Average mage with Will 6 and a spell pool of 6 throws a Moderate Manabolt with a Force of 6. He's resisting 6M Drain. The odds say that he's going to get 2 successes, so he's going to take an average of Light Drain every time he casts his primary combat spell. Not going to be casting a full force spell very often! In practice, I rarely see mages in my games casting spells over Force 4 without a damned good reason; they tend to make up the deficit in power with magic pool (oops, spell pool these days) dice, and many of them carry spell locks or quickened spells with Increase Willpower just to get through the runs without flaking out half-way. Believe me, the last thing a mage needs is harder Drain.

Actually, one could even argue about applying wound modifiers to Damage resistance test (I know, I know, it's not in the book...): the more trauma your body suffers from, the less it will be able to take...seems quite logical to me...although I've never applied Wound mod to damage resistance tests. As far as Drain resistance is concerned, I've made my point. I know it's not cannon, but it seems far more logical to me...and as I said, drain TN is not such a big deal: tossing mana spells or stun spells is not very hard on the spellcaster compared to the damage he can inflict over and over in the case of unmodified drain resistance tests...

Actually, results from actual combat situations would suggest that if you receive a not-that-serious wound (hole through the lower leg that doesn't shatter a bone or rip open a main artery, a Light wound), you are less likely to then be disabled by a following more serious wound. This is mostly because the lesser trauma already prepares the body to work in bad conditions -- adrenaline levels shoot up, etc. (People shot right at the beginning of a combat situation often drop on the spot, while others who've already been hammered for a while can continue to function with similar wounds, or so it would seem from reading combat reports.)

"Rolling with a hit" and other more conscious ways of trying to limit the damage caused might be hampered by being wounded previously, however. I personally view the Damage Resistance test as simply the build of your body and certain unconscious protection methods employed by it, so having Wound Modifiers affect the DamRest test does not make sense for me.

Austere, that would explain so many of my nastier RL fights, thanks.

Until a few weeks ago, my group always assumed wound modifers were used on damage resistance tests as well, until somebody who transfered in from another group showed us otherwise. If it's not supposed to act on drain either, hmmm, well I definatly wouldn't have my mages going unconcious so often.