I always thought of the module as a seperate processor, and since it costs only 0.1 Essense, it is pretty small.

If you are the GM, it is your call whether to ignore the Errata or not. Personally I think it makes both IC sense and game balance sense.

I'm with toturi on this one, the mod for the smartlink is an additional processor to interpret the range data and the weapon mod is the laser and stuff. It makes sense, and it also makes getting that addidional TN modifiers at long and extreme range a little more costly than a 150 nuyen weapon mod which any self respecting sam can fit himself.

It doesn't quite make the base 4's for extreme range, but it does help when you look at the TN 7 you'd normally have. 2, 3, 3 and 5 is always good, and if you have a grenade launcher, it makes Grenade Links useful too :o)

Whether it makes sense or not, it's a trivial addition and changes his original point not in the least.

~J

Presumably the cyberware rangefinder calculates the drop given a specific range and soforth rather than just the range.

Note that I still think it's silly. Before that errata I'd come up with plenty of uses of the rangefinder without even using a smartlink, while now it's like the ASIST converter; useless for nearly all other applications.

~J

No. Wrong. Just displaying range to target *is* easy, and you can do that with a rangefinder accessory for your gun even without the extra SL2 accessory. Hell, I bet most electronic scopes will do that for you as well. The part that requires additional processing is where the SL2 system adjusts the position of the targeting reticle AND provides limited simsense feedback to improve your aim based on range data, thus providing additional TN reductions. As you said, the standard SL2 processor is rather impressive in its own right, and I guess they figured that only a subset of SL2 customers would want to shell out the extra cash and brainspace for rangefinder integration processing, so they made it an add-on rather than standard. It really does make perfect sense.

Put another way: If the SL2 had *originally* had its essence cost listed as 0.6 and included range processing, you would not be complaining that the device was too essence-expensive. It is, simply put, a much better piece of ware than the original smartlink, and in pretty much all other cases where there is a standard version and a better version of a piece of ware, the better version costs more essence.

I dont see why you care so much that they made one nice feature of the system optional, especially considering its trivial cost.

I'm just playing around with the ideas floating around here.

I liked the idea that was proposed about the adding 2 dice to the roll as opposed to -2 from TN, but I wanted to know it's actual effect.

So I went to Scott's Shadowrun Target Number Home Page and plugged in some simple numbers to see what the difference was.

::TEST ONE::
(As per normal)
4 dice aiming to succeed a TN of 10 with one pair and receiving a -2TN (TN= has a 9.54235968221308% chance of success.

(Proposed Revision)
4 dice aiming to succed a TN of 10 with one pair and receiving 2 extra dice to the roll (6 dice) has a 8.309388128000684% chance of success.
---------------------------------------
The Proposed Revision indeed is a harder test to succeed at. (by 1.2%)


::TEST TWO::
(As per normal)
4 dice aiming to succeed a TN of 10 with two pairs and receiving a -2TN (TN= has a 0.03721088629782046% chance of success.

(Proposed Revision)
4 dice aiming to succed a TN of 10 with two pairs and receiving 2 extra dice to the roll (6 dice) has a 0.06302779921124826% chance of success.
---------------------------------------
The Proposed Revision is an easier test to succeed at. (by 0.03%)


::TEST THREE::
(As per normal)
6 dice aiming to succeed a TN of 13 with one pair and receiving a -2TN (TN=11) has a 3.985370083414715% chance of success.

(Proposed Revision)
6 dice aiming to succed a TN of 13 with one pair and receiving 2 extra dice to the roll (8 dice) has a 1.9325777307331062% chance of success.
---------------------------------------
The Proposed Revision is a harder test to succeed at. (by 2%)


::TEST FOUR::
(As per normal)
6 dice aiming to succeed a TN of 13 with two pairs and receiving a -2TN (TN=11) has a 0.013048249946842637% chance of success.

(Proposed Revision)
6 dice aiming to succed a TN of 13 with two pairs and receiving 2 extra dice to the roll (8 dice) has a 0.0038098243076577585% chance of success.
---------------------------------------
The Proposed Revision is a harder test to succeed at. (by .01%)

::END TEST::

So it appears already that if you are looking to make it more difficult to get one pair of successful dice, then indeed giving two dice instead of a -TN of 2 would be a good idea.
If you are however, looking to make things harder past that, it looks as though there isn't really too much of a curved advantage between the ideas.

AVERAGE HIT TEST
::% Chance For 6 Dice To Hit TN's 2 - 13 On Average With One Pair Of Dice Succeeding::
-2TN
50.027166512534298769230769230769%

::% Chance For 8 Dice To Hit TN's 2 - 13 On Average With One Pair Of Dice Succeeding::
+2D6 to Roll
41.019444523722528338461538461538%

Final
The Proposed Idea is 9.00772198881177043076923076923% more difficult to succeed at than the -2TN that stands in effect at present.

All in all...looks like a pretty sound idea with out any real downsides forseeable in doing so. You simply have made the game 9% harder accross the board (basically).

....
You know...you really are talking about bringing back the third level of concentration that was called specialization and simply getting rid of SL's all together. (funny how that works)

I wouldn't care if you either had to slap a rangefinder on a SL-equipped gun and be able to use it, or you were able to get an eye-mod rangefinder that connected internally to your SL, but having to do both strikes me as pointless, not the least because compared to all the math a SL processor has to do already, incorporating range data into it is completely trivial. It's like requiring a Pentium IV to have an auxilliar processor to run a program emulating a scientific calculator.

A rangefinder is also the first thing anyone designing a real-life "smartlink" would have included, but that's a whole another rant...

especially when a electronic mag 3 eye mod negates thew need for rangefinder mods and gives with SL! 2/3/4/4 which is comparable to 2/3/3/5 it is pointless

And a big thank you for doing the math for me, up there.

Yes, the goal was to make shooting a tad harder but still keep the feel of things. A Smartgun helps you make better shots, but not as dramaticly as the target number drop would imply.

It was just an off-the-top-of-my-head fix.

A bit of a surprise that it'd get that close, tho.

-- Reb

Twelve dice, TN 2, expecting ten successes. Fourteen dice, TN 4, expecting 7 successes.

Twelve dice, TN 4, expecting 6 successes. Fourteen dice, TN 6, expecting 2.333 successes.

Twelve dice, TN 6, expecting 2wo successes. Fourteen dice, TN 8, expecting 1.9444.

Twelve dice, TN 8, expecting 1.666. Fourteen dice, TN 10, expecting 0.777.

Twelve dice, TN 10, expecting 1 success. Fourteen dice, TN 12, expecting 0.3888.



Twelve dice, TN 2, expecting ten successes. Fourteen dice, TN 2, expecting 11.666.

~J

Sword

~J

Well, except for the rules for smartlinks and rangefinders.

Then I guess he's right. It's idiotic and should probably be ignored. That could be why I don't remember it.

Edit: Page 2. Duh. It's shitty piece of errata that should be completely ignored, IMO. There's no reason why the gun-mounted module shouldn't be able to interface with the smartlink hardware all on its own and I don't think there's any reason why rangefinder cyberware should be able to do the same thing. One or the other, not both, should be sufficient.

On topic:
I think there's a legitimate argument that the smart link is a little overpowered from a game balance point of view, and I completely buy the "if it is an automatic addition to a starting character then it is unbalanced" rule of thumb. The response that "it was intended to be ubiquitous" is just circular - the only items I but that kind of argument for are ones that will have so little influence that they are priced for realism rather than game balance - everyone taking a pocket-sec is fine, everyone automatically starting their cyberware package with a smartlink isn't IMO.

And has been pointed out, the low essence cost means that the sammy's single biggest advantage is incredibly available to awakened characters.

I think a lot of good could be done by fiddling with the smartlink and making it both more fully-realised (rather than a balck box with a game effect, which is what it currently does most of the time) and slightly less tempting - given that it's a key peice of a sammy's loadout very little has been done to explore its full functionality.

EDIT: Stewpitt post

Of course, nobody is taking into account the Smartlink's legality.

The laser sight has the massive disadvantage of being visible at the target, and in the air if there are sufficient reflective particles.

~J

While it's not exactly canon, an IR laser with IR imaging slapped onto the vis mod combats the usual disadvantage.

Still doesn't if there's a Troll, Dwarf, or person with the proper eyemods in the area.

~J

I continue to maintain that if the SL2 simply cost 0.6 essence/4500: nuyen: and included compatability with an external rangefinder, no one would be complaining about how retarded it is that it costs what it does.

Furthermore, I submit that, if they had presented it as I mentioned above, and allowed you could get a discount of 0.1 essence/1000 on the standard SL2 package by excluding the rangefinder processing capabilities, you would also not complain about how retarded it was that there existed an excludeable rangefinder processor. The only difference is how they chose to present what is essentially an identical situation.

Jason I would so you are wrong there.

Some of us played avidly in second edition and back ten in the Cybertechnology sourcebook the rangefinder was an eye mod so there is CANON support for such an interpretation so you are wrong there

calm down

But that Rangefinder was a rangefinder, not a SL II rangefinder mod.

I don't have a problem with the extra Essence cost of the Rangefinder. My problem is the need for an extrenal, gun-mounted module if one is already implanted. In my opinion, it would make more sense to be one or the other. To gain the benefits, a character has the option of either implanting the Rangefinder as a Smartlink add-on, or having one installed as an external component to his weapon(s).

Would you prefer the cyberware referred to as "extended physics co-processor for smartlink systems"?

I don't see much real work on the part of the SL processor for it to incorporate the calculations necessary for Rangefinder integration on top of its normal function. The Rangefinder itself is where the redundancy comes in. I believe (and indeed house-rule) that it is only necessary to have one device that acts as the Rangefinder, whether that is implanted or a gun-mod.

My biggest problem with this is simply gasme balance as for 0.6 essence I can have 2/3/4/4 without the need for funky rangefinder modifications to my gun that use up a gun slot

2/3/3/5 is not really much better than 2/3/4/4 and if I choose to go with a colt manhunter it is realy 2/3/3/3.5 (3 out to half of extreme range 4 for the rest) in day and 2/3/3/3 at night this makes the SL2 rangefinder deal underpowered compared to a SL1 and electronic mag 3 per essence (I realize the implants cost more but you get that back over time by much cheaper gun mods,
eg manhunter + SL1 = 850
manhunter + SL2 + rangefinder = 1212.5

that's :nuyen:362.5 extra per for the CHEAPEST gun option if you are going for SMGs or most rifles (alpha notwithstanding) the price difference rises dramatically.

now the SL1 + elec mag 3 is 13,500 and the SL2 + rangefinder costs 5,500 that makes a difference of 8000.

that's 22-23 guns in your career before the cost evens out in cash. add to this the fact that the rig I showed is compatible with more of the guns that can be grabbed off a downed corp sec guard and you realize that with the both required ruling thr rangefinder is effectively worthless

and that ignores the guy who just goes laser sigt and electronig mag 3 for 3/3/3/3.5 or the adept with the same and attunement for 2/2/2/2.5

smartlink doesn't seem so bad now, does it? main reason i take smartlink for my sammy chars is coolness factor

Um...Vision Magnification and Smartlinks are incompatible.

yes but one can have both and it is a free action to choose which one is using for the shot

not even a free action, actually. it's not an action at all; you just use one or the other.

true, even easier than I thought

Kremlin, I'm intruigued where you got your numbers from?? With Vis Mag 3 your TN's to hit are 4/4/4/4. You can chose to use this instead of anything else you have, such as smartlink or smartlink 2, but those systems don't stack.

Lasers and, I'm assuming, the Adept power of attuning, will work with the Vis Mag but smartlink won't.

And to be honest, I have no problem with any of this. So what, it takes the Smartlink 2 a daughter board to process hyper accurate range data, and so what the standard issue sensory hardware within the gun can't give that kind of info.

I take a very GM orientated view of things - what's good for the goose is good for the gander. My players have realised that they've got a 2/3/3/5 progression for shots - as does any NPC who's gonna have a smartlink installed since the essence cost and nuyen cost to go from smartlink 1 to smartlink 2 with rangefinder is negligible.

With the difference b/w a SL 1 and SL 2 + rangefinder being 3000 then it would make sense not to get that SL 2 + RF. 3000 may not seem a big deal, but it is a month's pay for a LS street officer. If you start having NPCs all having that, it is really going test the suspension of disbelief.

It is ok if the Agents and Neo can dodge bullets, but when everyone is an Agent really tests my patience.

okay canid in short you may have both vision mag and SL systems installed but you may not benefit from both at the same time

hence if you have vis mag three and a smartlink your tns are

short range: I'll go with a smartlink at this range TN2
Medium range: smartlink still better here TN 3
Long range: much of a muchness TN 4
Extreme range, well now I'm better off with vision mag TN 4

hence 2/3/4/4
now add a laser sight (ala colt manhunter) and we have
short range go with the smartlink TN2
medium range, much of a muchness TN 3
long range, go with the vis mag and LS TN 3
extreme range go with the vis mag and LS tn 3 or 4 if further than 50m and daylight

the laser sight + vis mag and LS + attuning + vis mag should be easier to understand

I think the reason that SL's give a -2TN instead of +2D6 was because the old Specializations gave a +2D6.

Let's pretend that the original rule was SL's give +2D6 and that we're playing 2nd Edition SR.
If you Specialized in a Pred III and used an SL, you'd have a total of 10D6 to roll with a Pred III before you even used Combat Pool Dice.

So I think that's why it was a -2TN originally.

On the other hand,
They've gotten rid of the third branch of skills so you can't get 8D6 off of Specializing anymore.

With that removal, it would seem that making SL's +2D6 in 3rd Ed. SR an ok prospect, but not a good prospect at all in any 2nd Ed. SR game as well as making any Character Conversions between the two Editions a bit more difficult.

But as a house rule, sounds good.

honestly at that point I start taking my LS combo above as it is a better choice than the SL if the house rule comes in

I think that's Johnny's point....The SL is perfectly stealthy....the Laser Site may or may not be depending on things.

SOTA 64 talks about Lone Star giving discounts on cyberware, but either way, I quantified my statement - if an NPC's gonna have Smartlink in the first place then I see no reason why they wouldn't have smartlink 2. Okay, rangefinders are a little more on the iffy side, but for the most part only SWAT level sec goons have Smartlink in my games, and those guys will definately not be worried by an extra couple of k. Other than that, well that's what smart googles are for....

Hmm, I wonder if the rangefinder will work with smart 2 goggles... doesn't say it won't, though probably have to add a little cost to it for the rangefinder proc.

Kremlin: cool, didn't realise you'd included both sets of mods when they can be gotten.