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Deamon_Knight
I'm turning on the NooB blinkers here, but I've been wondering: Say I remove my 1 essence cyberlimb, do I get 1 essence back? Presumably so, the mechanic described in M&M, that the interaction of the nervous system and cyber interface cause Essence loss, once that interaction ends, does the bodies "holistic system" recover?

A practical example would be my poor Rigger who got a basic grade VCR-2 at 3 essence. After an amazingly succesfull first run :smiles:, my rigger is no longer poor, and tries to upgrade to a delta VCR-3 (1/2 of 5; 2.5 essence?). If I understand the Rules, you need only pay the difference when upgrading 'ware. So what if that results in Essence gain? Or better yet, my BTL addict Sammie decided its better to be a one-armed cripple than a cyberzombie, or Goul snacks.

I can't find anything in the rules that would forbid this, nor any rules that would explicitly permit it, so does anyone know?
Crimsondude 2.0
... I will find the page number, but for now:

They do not get it back. Ever. EVER!!!

They get a "slot" for the value of the essence hole, so your Rigger doesn't lower his essence down to 0.5 (-datajack) after the procedures. Instead he has 3(-datajack) essence with a 0.5 "hole" he can fill before lowering his real essence level.
HMHVV Hunter
The way I understand it, upgrading in that fashion creates a certain amount of "inert Essence space" that can be used.

Let me give you an example:

I have Wired Reflexes 3, which costs 5 Essence and brings my remaining Essence down to 1. Now, I upgrade it to alphaware, which costs only 4 Essence (reduced by 20%), so now I have 1 Essence left and 1 "inert" Essence left over from the upgrade. Now that means I can get, say, Muscle Replacement Rating 1 (cost: 1 Essence) installed and still have that 1 Essence point left over. If I got, say, MR Rating 1 and a Smartlink (cost: .5 Essence), I'd have .5 total Essence left.

See what i mean?
Ol' Scratch
Note that as of Man & Machine, this "Essence hole" only occurs if the proper Surgical Option is taken during an implant's removal.
Crimsondude 2.0
Indeed.

It was more of a given back in SR1 and 2.
RedmondLarry
With standard rules, any removal of cyberware leaves an "essence hole", which any other piece of cyberware installed later can use up or partially use up.

For example, removing Wired Reflexes 2 (at 3 ess.)will leave a hole of 3 Essence. The character hasn't recovered the essence, however. Installing Wired Reflexes 3 (at 5 ess.) will use up that 3 point hole plus two more points of Essence.

With the optional surgery rules from Man and Machine, installing into an essence hole as part of an upgrade is almost automatic, but target numbers and rolls are required in a non-upgrade surgery to make use of an essence hole.

/Wow: so many replies in so short a time. We should run an online game while we're all here.
Crimsondude 2.0
Not here...
Deamon_Knight
Holy burning Keyboards Batman, That was fast!

Uh, if anyone is playing an online game, my great regret is that I have never actually Played Shadowrun. I bought one of the books and have been trying to convince my group to try it, but i'm low man on That Totem. I'd consider running one myself, but shadowrun is complex, and ontop of that: I've never DMed before, and I'd rather NOT have the first exposure to this game tainted by my inexperince! Shadowrun looks so cool, I just wish I had a chance to check it out!
Ol' Scratch
Check out the Welcome to the Shadows forum here, or visit a site like Shadowland Six for online gaming.
Eyeless Blond
Hmm, now *here's* an interesting idea: what if it were possible to develop a way to recover Essence by spending Karma, much in the same way that the Awakened can recover Magic loss by initiating? Of course it would cost massive amounts of Karma and possibly cash as well, but it would allow mundanes to have a similar power curve to Awakened, something which is sorely lacking right now.
Canid13
Doesn't the genetech section of SOTA63 have something about recovering essence holes? I know it can remove Boosted Reflexes so perhaps. I've not got the book on me right now so I can't check.
Nomad
No.....no.....absoutely not......no

Essence should never be recovered.


But should Body Index return to 0 if bioware is removed? Given the nature of the enhancements and the fact that they utilize a seperate rating, it may possibly be allowed.
toturi
It only works for Boosted Reflexes and whether it works to restore Essense is really a GM call.
Deamon_Knight
My thought regarding this was that if Essence is as described in M&M, a reaction between Hardware and Nervous systen, once the offending material is excised, the nervous system is no longer disrupted.

If Essence is considered as a Game Mechanic, Essence primarily is used to limit Cyberware, and to make in the heavily chromed harder to effect with benifical magic. If i'm correct, removing cyberware to recoup essence shouldn't matter, as the Benifts that Essence as a game mechanic are trying to limit, the cyberware, is gone.

Remeber the NooB sign by my name if none of this makes sense!
toturi
Yes, but recovering Essense gives the PC more "defense" against critters with Essense Drain. Also recovering Essense opens up the sticky question of recovering Magic since almost certainly someone will bring up the connection between Essense and Magic.
mfb
i believe Funk got it backwards, but the surgery rules are arcane enough that i can't be sure. the way it reads to me, the Essence Slot surgery option is taken for the piece of cyberware being installed, not the one being removed. in other words, if you upgrade your Wired Reflexes 3 from basic to alpha grade, you'd do a normal surgery on the operation to remove the basic grade WR3, and use the Essence Slot option on the operation to implant the alpha grade WR3. this is from reading the Cyberware Removal implant surgery operation, and the Essence Slot option.
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (toturi)
Yes, but recovering Essense gives the PC more "defense" against critters with Essense Drain. Also recovering Essense opens up the sticky question of recovering Magic since almost certainly someone will bring up the connection between Essense and Magic.

Well what I'm primarily going for here is allowing mundanes to have some sort of power curve that isn't available to Awakened, and Essence recovery seems like the best thing I can find. If it had any effect on Magic, it would have to lower it rather than raise it; we certainly don't need any more ways for Awakened to become more powerful.
Herald of Verjigorm
How's this: A character may be mundane but pay priority A (or 30 bp) for the benefit or a robust soul. It will allow the completely mundane individual to recover from any sort of essens loss except currently implanted cyberware. Essense is restored in full points (or portions of full points if the difference between current essens and maximum available essense is less than 1) in a natural process that takes (post-recovery essense value rounded up) days.
mfb
i don't really understand how this allows mundanes to 'catch up' with Awakened characters. unless your character becomes addicted to drugs at some point, it's unlikely that he'll take essence loss that can't be used as an essence slot for other 'ware.

i also question the idea that mundanes really need to 'catch up' with Awakened characters at all. i'm playing a pretty badass adept, right now, and i'm at ~200 karma. i'm still lagging behind the street sam i partner with, and we share specialties--we're both experts at SMGs, melee, and sneakery. the sam, however, is quite a bit faster than i am, just as sneaky, better at SMGs and melee, and he's pretty good in a variety of other weapons and fields. he can soak more damage, he can dish out more damage, and his sensory suite tops my adept's. why, exactly, does the sam need a way to 'catch up' with me?

people get really hung up on the 'no upper limit' thing, with adepts and magic users. i submit for consideration the possibility that the point at which an Awakened character's ability to grow surpasses a mundane's is so far up the karma scale as to be irrelevant in most games.
DrJest
QUOTE
people get really hung up on the 'no upper limit' thing, with adepts and magic users. i submit for consideration the possibility that the point at which an Awakened character's ability to grow surpasses a mundane's is so far up the karma scale as to be irrelevant in most games.


Absolutely and totally agreed. This was also the point I tried to make in the Samurai vs Adept thread - sure, by the time a physad has 5 or 6 grades of initiation he'll exceed the samurai's capabilities, but come on, how long does that take?

The same applies to any of the Awakened characters. They simply aren't going to go stellar any time within the average game time frame unless you only play SR and for that matter do so several times a week.
Ol' Scratch
The big thing people do when arguing magic vs. mundane is constantly assume the magician (adept or standard) has the munched-out version of whatever power they need to compare to the mundane equivalence. The problem is, adepts don't get to have all of those powers simultaneously. Even with geasa, it's tough to get a strong mix of abilities even after several initiations.

Mundanes, and street sam-types in particular, can start the game kicking a ton of ass... and as the karma and cash start rolling in, they get to improve their mundane skills and improve their implants while the adept is busying gaining more adept powers. *That* is something a lot of people ignore, too -- adepts aren't the only ones who get a lot of bang out of their Karma.
DrJest
That's a good point, Doc, and you're right, most people don't look at that.

Take my gun kata physmage (Imp Ref 2, Imp Ability Pistols 2, Impr Senses Flare Comp & Low Light, Imp Ability Martial Arts 1, 1pt Magic Rating, Enhance Aim on a sustaining Focus). With his Pistols score of 6, he's rolling 8 dice at the same targets as the smartlinked sam. It's the only thing he does (powers-wise), but he does it well.

By the time I've spent the 34 karma (assuming group inititation with ordeal) to gain 3 initiate grades (picking up, say, Mystic Armour 2, Killing Hands (M) and 2 levels each of Improved Athletics and Improved Stealth to try and mitigate the one-trick-poniness of the character) the sam will have probably improved his cyberware with the cash we've earned AND put a couple points on two or three of his primary skills. I actually spent those 3 grades catching up to the sammie's starting abilities (assuming bone lacing (ceramic), retractable cyberspurs and say a couple of reflex recorders - the latter not an exact correlation, but since the sam will have had plenty of other stuff he did it'll do). Meanwhile he has probably matched my Pistols ability, the one thing I did better than him to start with, increased his secondary combat skill (probably hand to hand or automatics) and tricked himself out with new toys (34 Karma - allowing for Karma Pool deductions, that's probably around 6-7 runs, so the sam probably has between 50k-100k nuyen to spend on his new stuff. I could do a lot with that kind of cash smile.gif )

No, I don't think the Awakened have such a huge advantage, myself.
Cochise
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Note that as of Man & Machine, this "Essence hole" only occurs if the proper Surgical Option is taken during an implant's removal.

Nope (mfb correctly mentioned it already)

QUOTE (M&M p. 150)
Essence Slot(Implant, +2 Threshold):
[i]If the character previously had cyberware removed, a new implant with this option can be installed within the "Essence hole" left behind by the earlier implant ...

=> That option has to be taken when the new implant is implanted. The removal appearantly always leaves the "Essence hole", but it's the surgeon's job to actually use it when installing new ware ...

_____

QUOTE (Nomad)
But should Body Index return to 0 if bioware is removed?  Given the nature of the enhancements and the fact that they utilize a seperate rating, it may possibly be allowed.


By logic? Possibly ...
By the rules? No ... the existance of the Bio Index Slot surgical options tells a different story ...
Just Jonny
While I understand and agree that essence loss is ALWAYS permanent from a canon standpoint, I just can't agree from a common sense standpoint. The main reason? Vampires. While I agree that alterations of one's nature (i.e. cyberware) should result in permanent essence loss, if a character gets essence drained for 1-2 points by a vampire or somesuch, it just seems like common sense that they'd eventually recover. Now, by eventually I mean on a scale of months, but c'mon...spritually crippled by a light vampire bite? As a homerule in my game, a character heals one essence point due to HMHVV critter drains per month.
Tanka
Well, if the Vampire completely drains them (i.e. those cybered up kids with .01 Essence left), the Vampire can either make them a Vampire or let them die. There's no recovery there.

If they have, say, 4 Essence left and the Vampire takes 2... Well, that's too bad. They have 2 Essence and the remote possibility of being addicted to the feeling of it (as, according to myth, it feels damn good, some stories say "better than sex" good) and will go out of their way to get it again. (IIRC, there's a story somewhere about something like that. I'll have to scan through my books again and find it.)
Edward
The use of an essence hole is a given in SR3. M&M by the strictest reading makes upgrading cyber wear lethal as you need a special surgery option to leave a usable essence hole and a nether one to use the essence hole for the new implantís needs. Replacing your wired refs 2 (3 ess) with wired refs 3 Alfa (4 ess) without taking a lot of difficult and expensive surgery options results in a total essence of -1.

I have never heard of anybody using a strict interpretation of these rules from M&M but that is how I interpret (and ignore) them. Further I can find no indication in M&M that upgrades automatically get to use the essence hole

As to actual recovery of essence I believe gen tech (sota 2063) can do it but you will have to pay in cold hard nuyen

Edward
mfb
Ed, i'm not sure how you're getting that out of the rules in M&M. i don't see anything at all in the rules to indicate that cyberware removal doesn't automatically leave a useable slot. am i missing something in the text?
Jason Farlander
mfb: Check out the "Essence Slot" positive option on page 150 in M&M. Since it is listed as a positive option, and one would *assume* that the authors did not intend to include something that makes cyberware implanting significantly more difficult while also happening to be completely worthless, the implication is that, unless a piece of ware is installed with that option, you no longer have an Essence hole when you remove a piece of ware.
mfb
yes, but that just means that you need to use the Essence Slot option when implanting a piece of 'ware into an essence slot. it doesn't mean you have to take that option when removing cyber, in order to leave a useable essence hole behind. nor does it say anything about needing to have this option when cyberware is installed, in order for that piece of 'ware to leave a useable slot when removed.
Jason Farlander
Oh, heh, you're right. I guess I shouldnt be quite so lazy when I try to correct people, and actually read the sections I'm referencing carefully. Especially when I don't bother with those rules. Whoops.

Carry on. Nothing to see here.
Fortune
Does anyone actually use those rules?
BitBasher
I do.
Edward
Frag. I thought there was another positive option to leave an essence hole. My bad. Still +2 to the threshold for essence hole is harsh. Thresholds are the harshest way to make something harder in SR. the listed street dock in SRcomp has biotech (cyber implant) 7(cool.gif. He can probably do a single positive option but attempting 2 would be dangerous. If conditions are not ideal then he will likely fail. Considering upgrade surgery will include multiple surgery procedures it could get nasty fast.

Edward
Edward
The other annoying part is there is no more difficulty using the essence hole from a remove cyber leg for a new cyber arm than for a replacement cyber leg.

Edward
JaronK
I don't see the problem... there's so many negative modifiers to the surgery that it's not hard for a good doctor to get 5 positive options. I don't see the problem.

A medic character in the group I GM for has Microscopic vision (-2), can work with two other doctors during surgery (-2) using nanotechnology (-2) with magical assistance (-1). That's a -7 to the target number. Then, she has Biotec 6, Medicine 6, in a Rating 6 Alphaware lab, with enhanced articulation and an encephalon. That's 8 regular dice and 12 complimentary dice when doing surgery, with a base target number of -3. She can add 5 points worth of positive options without needing more than a 2, giving an average of about 12 successes.

JaronK
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Edward @ Oct 24 2004, 07:35 PM)
The other annoying part is there is no more difficulty using the essence hole from a remove cyber leg for a new cyber arm than for a replacement cyber leg.

IMHO I suggest you allow use of the "Upgrade Cyberware" (MM.147) Implant Surgery procedure to put in a replacement cyberleg. That procedure automatically reuses the previous essence hole.

Also, I agree with what Dr. Funkenstein will post in 6 minutes.
Ol' Scratch
I personally recommend just ignoring the entire Surgery section of Man & Machine. It adds unnecessary complexity to the game for minimal gain other than being able to say "yeah, we have rules for that."
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (OurTeam)
Also, I agree with what Dr. Funkenstein will post in 6 minutes.

...Nice. grinbig.gif
Ol' Scratch
Bah.
Edward
QUOTE (OurTeam)
Also, I agree with what Dr. Funkenstein will post in 6 minutes.

Got to love that these boards have the edited by line as an option.

I also agree until one of the PCs decides to be the teem surgeon rather than just medic.

Edward
Moon-Hawk
In the past, I have allowed essence recovery for the essence hole. There is absolutely no way to recover essence from currently implanted cyberware, of course, but I let them have it back when it is removed; but NOT FOR FREE. The main reason I decided to do this was because I had implanted it in them as part of plot, and it was really mean. So the option I gave them was to buy back the essence hole for 0.1 essence per point of good karma. And the ruling sort of stuck.
For something like cybereyes it's pretty minor. Just get clonal replacements and pay 2 karma to get the essence back, but to redeem yourself from wired 2 it's 30 karma. Basically you 're expending your life energy (karma) to repair the damaged link between your astral form and your physical form.
As for the inevitable question of magic, Magic is just essence minus bio index rounded down, plus the number of magic-increasing initiations. If essence increases enough then I let them have the point of magic back.
It's certainly not canon, but that rule has worked well in my campaigns, and I've never had any problems with abuse.
Artemus
I tried to read the surgery rules in M&M. Got a headache and just gave up on them. IMHO if someone replaces their cyber arm with a cloned arm, let them have their essence back. The body IMHO is hole again. If someone upgrades their cyberware from basic to delta they can get their essence back too. Though the only time someone did that on one of my games, they turned around and got more 'ware.

I guess I am just a nice GM - and I don't care too much for essence. I mean I love Ghost in the Shell and the whole "brain in the pan" Motoko Kusanagi type cyborgs. Which as of now are completely impossible in SR.

However after reading this thread I wouldn't give the magic point back. Once the magical link has been damaged/lost (whatever you want to call it), you have to initiate to get it back. That's how I view that, even if the mage gets his essence back, he can't get his magic point again.
Deamon_Knight
What really wierds me out is that Essence lost to a Vamp is gone for good! That seems excessively harsh. That would nail everyone short of the mildly chromed face if It couldn't be recovered. Plus if, there is no way to recover drained essence, how many people yearly do Vamps end up killing? Vamps loose 1 essence/month, right? That means they have to kill double their population yearly!
Kagetenshi
Not if they don't feed from the same people repeatedly. A population of ten uncybered people with no drug addictions can feed a vampire for fifty months before one of them needs to die.

~J
Herald of Verjigorm
Draining street scum to 1 essense is a great way to get away with it. No one with influence cares about them, and there is no "rash of street scum who appear to have died in excrutiating pain" to draw attention either. They will live their lives about as well as before, but with only 1 essense for those situations where that actually matters, and most of them should not be implanting cyberware or getting magical healing.
Moon-Hawk
1) Vampires is another big reason I let them buy essence back at 0.1 essence per Good Karma.
2) You can still have brain-in-a-pan cyborgs, just not at anything less than alpha grade cyber. Delta, if you actually want them to be Ghost in the Shell bad-ass. Actually, they're brain and guts in a pan; the real trick would just be figuring out how much ECU, essence, and nuyen a life support system would take up so we could remove those pesky organs inside the cybertorso.
lorthazar
Now I know this goes against Canon, but it does not fly out of the face of reality. It is reasonable to assume that a person could regain Essence after have cyberware removed or upgraded. However the process should be difficult, expensive and time consuming.

First there should be either nuerosurgery or a tailored program of antipsychotic drugs. Either one would have outlandish cost and unfortunate side effects. Then the person would have to go psychiatric counselling and probably a physical therapist for 20 to 40 hours a week for at least 2 months. Then the person will still be mild anti-psychotics for a extended period while his body gets used to the change.

All in all this should replace no more than half of what was lost to Cyberware. on the other hand if it was by essence drain all could be replaced. However a person could only go through this procedure once (maybe twice if they pushed it). After that the regimen would drive the person crazy instead.

And before anyone says "But that is not the rules!", remeber we are the GM's we decide which rules to enforce absolutely and which ones we bend to fit our definition of reality better.

Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (lorthazar)
First there should be either nuerosurgery or a tailored program of antipsychotic drugs.

I see your point about making it difficult and expensive, but this sort of solution reminds me of 'two wrongs trying to make a right'. I don't think it should be correctable by more drugs and more surgery.
But hey, were already lost in the depths of house rules anyway. biggrin.gif
Ol' Scratch
I allow Essence recovery in my games as the body slowly heals itself, but it can't be augmented by either technology or magic and takes so long as to be utterly useless for runners -- thus making it all but a moot point. The process takes one year if the recovery is from 5 to 6, two years from 4 to 5, four years from 3 to 4, eight years from 2 to 3, sixteen years from 1 to 2, and thirty-two years from 0.1 to 1.

So yes, that would take 63 years for a hardcore street sam to completely recover... his decision to cut away all that flesh and wire all that technology in his system is going to have reprecussions for the entirity of his life even if/when he has it all removed.
mfb
"doesn't fly in the face of reality"? i wasn't aware that essence existed, outside the confines of SR.
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