Do non-elemental damage spells stage up like guns or is it an all or nothing effect?

Does every 2 suxx beond D up the power by 2?

all damaging spells stage up with net successes. if the target gets more successes on his resistance test than the caster got on the sorcery test, the target shrugs off the spell completely, unless the spell is an elemental manip. extra successes beyond D do not raise the power of the damage; they simply make it harder to resist the spell.

so the target doesnt stage the damage down?

Its either the damage the caster set it at, staged up, or completely negated?

Right.

Kinda odd, isn't it?

i like it because it keeps mages from casting all their damaging spells at force 2, and relying on lots of successes to take out the target.

Actually the manabolt damage still stages up as normal if you have more net successes, but if the target has more net successes the manabolt has no effect. So it is not out of line if you have a lot of sorcery and spell pool dice as well as a focus to cast a 2L manabolt. After all if you can generate 6 more successes than him he is toast anyway

yes, but with the TN 2 resist, you're much less likely to generate those 6 extra successes, especially against targets with decent willpower. joe schmuck, with 3 will? okay. force 5 free spirit with 3 spirit energy? not so much.

mfb and lorthazar are almost right on the target's resistance test. All the target needs to shrug off a Combat Spell entirely is successes equal (or more) than the spellcaster. They do not need to exceed the spellcaster's successes.

Spellcasting and Firearms calculate staging AFTER the target has rolled its resistance rolls and only net successes are compared.

Melee combat calculates staging BEFORE any resistance rolls, as staging calculations might change the TN needed for the resistance rolls.

er, yeah. dammit, why don't all resistance tests use the same mechanic?

Because that would be too easy.

Besides no mage worth his salt cast a force 2 manabolt becuase it is the same drain number as a force 4 manabolt. A force 2 powerbolt on the other hand.....

True. If you're casting a spell at an even force you either need to:
1) Learn the spell at a higher force
2) Have your head examined
UNLESS...the force you're casting it at is your current magic rating, in which case even numbers are acceptable.

mmmmm .... Force 9 Exclusive for Drain Stunbolts .... :drool:

.....Or be playing with a bunch of guys known for rolling mostly odds on dice. Sorry, I like to hedge my bets

wait wait wait. I think I may have been doing this wrong then. Say some casts a manabolt at a creature with willpower 3. So target number is 3 for the spell, and the creature resists with his willpower. Now he fails to resist - is all damage done, or does he do a body resistance to damage? or is the willpower spell resist the only roll he gets?

Actually in that case it's just the Willpower. That is why Combat Spells are so deadly.

*phew* good, I'm doing it right then...altho my pour ghoul waves got absolutely massacred by two mages with stun ball and bolt respectively...willpower 3 does jack against force 6 spells.

Edit: however, I did do things wrong when I rolled to stage down DAMAGE rather than against the successes of the initial cast...

EDIT:oops!

I don't mean to hijack at all, so don't reply to this, but:

Grinder? Heh. Can Boltie post too now?

(Grinder, if you're confized, PM me about it. Or better yet, PM Cazmonster.)

Doctor is reffering to his house rule. The only time one can use Combat Pool for spells is Elemental Manipulaitons for the Dodge and Staging, but so can the caster...

One can only use Spell Pool from the allotted Spell Defense.

Hmm...seems like a pretty good house rule to use if you have no magical skill (mages would use spell pool anyways - probably have more in it than in their combat pool)

yes, we have been staging this damage down. Which I see is wrong.

As for mundanes defending. Well.. they just have to rely on a buddy mage for spell shielding or spell defence. Also remember the modifiers for cover and lighting ..ect.

this is why the SOP of any armed group is "kill the mage first". mages' power, while appreciable, is easily balanced by the number of bullets they attract.

Hmm... actually this makes spells less deadly than staging down, or am I reading this wrong?

I mean, Sammy Samurai with a Willpower of 5 gets hit by Mike Mage's 3S Manabolt. Mike Mage bombs out and rolls 3 successes; Sammy scores lucky and rolls all 5. With staging, Sammy would still take a M wound; under canon, he takes diddly-squat.

Or did I make a huge boo-boo here?

No boo-boo. Combat spells don't do less than the selected base damage. Death Touch is all-or-nothing. Even an equal number of successes by the defender is all it takes to take nothing.

It's only less deadly in that they need fewer successes to escape injury. Unfortunately, magicians tend to have a lot more dice to throw. Using your example, Sammy Samurai has a whole 5 dice to toss to resist. Mike Mage has in excess of 12 (Sorcery 6, Spell Pool 6) not including Elemental or Totem bonuses, foci, or anything else along those lines.

Even with the staging down of damage included, Sammy doesn't stand much of a chance unless he has another magician helping him with Spell Defense.

You'd be surprised how many people try to cheeze the dice mechanics with force 2 attack/combat spells.

i believe that in 2nd ed, you rolled your spell's force to cast it. if so, that's probably where the confusion comes from.

One thing to keep in mind about mages is that they tend to have lots of dice that they can potentially throw at people, but normally those dice are split between three things - spellcasting, helping to resist the Drain, and spell defense.

The deadly dice assault happens when a mage is casting a spell whose Drain can be resisted by Willpower alone, and faces no mages on the opposing side. It's still risky, though, because sometimes Willpower won't soak all of the Drain, and you can rarely be 100% sure that there is no awakened opposition. It's the near-equivalent of a sammie blowing all of his Combat Pool on an assault rifle burst, and saving none for dodging.

I suppose I don't find it too unbalancing, because a manabolt against Willpower: 3 is about as deadly as an Ares Alpha against Body: 3. Characters who have instant-kill attacks are not hard to make in Shadowrun. On the flip side, a Willpower of 6 or better makes it damn tough to affect your character with manabolt, etc. Even if the mage is rolling lots of dice, 6's can be elusive.