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Stumps
Well, the Shock Golves thread has a virus of conversation about this.

Table #1: SR#
GENERAL ATTACK
It was posed that SR1, SR2, SR3 are "established" acronyms by Shadowrun rule books and that BBB is not and that this fact alone negates BBB's use.

CLAIMS
#1)
Table #1 claims that BBB is not efficient as a reference acronym because it only reffers to a concept of "The" core rule book while SR1, SR2, and SR3 all reffer to each rule book specified by their numerical value.

#2)
Other charges against the BBB from Table #1 were that it's not widely known and that it's plain "lazy" to claim it as easier to type.

#3)
Table #1 makes the claim that Table #2 is a group of people who believe themselves "elitist's" because of their use of the acronym BBB, or they are type 2 of the Table #2 population who are simply "ignorant".


Table #2: BBB
GENERAL DEFENSE
BBB was defended by the stance that BBB is easier to type, that practically everyone knows what it means, and that BBB reffers to the present Source Book of the current edition of Shadowrun.

CLAIMS
#1)
Table #2 claims that BBB and SR1, SR2, and SR3 (as a set) are two accepted acronyms and that neither of the two are better than the other.

#2)
SR1, SR2, and SR3 were claimed to not always be clear by Table #2 and they also admit that BBB may not be clear sometimes either.

#3)
Table #2 also states that many other RPG's use similar acronyms to BBB such as Warhammer's BRB (Big Red Book), and that if you were to use an acronym similar to SR1, SR2, and SR3 in a Warhammer forum (for example) that no one would know what you meant.

---------------------------------
This has become a heated argument of which acronym should be used.

Well...let's find out what we think.
Stumps
I'll say my voice on this.

BBB makes sense for it's original purpose.
"Big Blue Book", which reffered to the original Shadowrun core rule book for 1st edition.
It makes sense to me for back then because there was only that one rule book, you couldn't really get it confused with any other core rule book and an acronym may (I haven't read 1st edition) not have been provided in the texts of the 1st edition, which isn't uncommon.

As soon as Shadowrun 2nd edition came out, however, BBB (imo) became obsolete because you now had to make a clear communicable distinction between the two source books, and BBB is an acronym that didn't make such a distinction.
Nikoli
I use BBB when talking about the current edition, however I use SR1 and SR2 when referring to anything in those editions. If there ever is a 4th edition, I'll likely refer to the "new" book as BBB and then add SR3 for when I refer to it specifically.

And yes, I'm lazy, BBB is easier for me to type than SR3
Tanka
It's easier for me to type SR3, personally. Granted, I average ~110wpm when trying and somewhere around 70wpm when not caring whatsoever.

BBB is a repetitive stroke, whereas SR3 is not, and (when using homerow on QWERTY) uses different fingers for Shift, S, R and 3. Hold Shift with whichever pinkie finger you wish to use, hit S, then R, release Shift and hit 3. Relatively simple.

BBB is a bit more complex. Hold shift with a respective pinkie, hit B, hit B, hit B. You either have to have your key-repeat settings way up and hold B down or hit B, release, hit, release, hit, release.

Not to mention... What happens when FanPro comes out with a book whose acronym is BBB? Looks like the SR3ers win there. nyahnyah.gif
BishopMcQ
Just when I thought acronyms couldn't cause the train wrecks that I am so constantly drawn to in these forums, they become the center of a hotly debated poll.

I support the BBB for the simple reason that I learned it as an acronym first and I use SR3 to refer to the system in a broader scope. In accordance with Nikoli, is a 4th edition does come out I would shift the BBB to the most recent edition. The flexibility of the BBB is that it can be applied to the most recent edition's core book--presuming that the core books continue to be printed with Blue or Black covers.

Now I must ask, is this really the pinnacle question for our day because in all the years I've played Shadowrun, I have never seen any confusion about BBB vs SR3 and IIRC the official Shadowrun site uses BBB as a reference to the Core Rule Book.
Kagetenshi
Iím down around the mere mortals with 80 words per minute whether Iím trying or not, but BBB is definitely a speedier and more natural sequence than SR3. Not that itís better, of course.

~J
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (McQuillan)
Now I must ask, is this really the pinnacle question for our day because in all the years I've played Shadowrun, I have never seen any confusion about BBB vs SR3

Then you must not read these forums very often. It comes up every few weeks.

QUOTE
...and IIRC the official Shadowrun site uses BBB as a reference to the Core Rule Book.

And you would be wrong. Same goes for the actual Shadowrun material.
Dashifen
I use BBB because otherwise without context it's hard to refer to the edition (SR3) or the core rulebook (SR3).
BishopMcQ
DR. Funk--Thanks for the clarification. I will admit that I don't troll this side of the boards a lot because as I mentioned earlier, I find that often the discussions are train wrecks waiting to happen and I just can't pull my eyes away as I watch the carnage.
Austere Emancipator
I voted SR3 for clarity. Everyone who's read the books knows what it means when someone refers to "p. ###, SR3". The fact that there are at least a few people (a significant part of forum newbies, at least) that don't know what BBB stands for is enough for me to go with SR3.

When I first started following and posting on the Jive forums, I had no idea what BBB means. I asked, and got the idea that everybody knows it and it's very common to use it. So I started using it. After a few others asked about BBB, and once I realized that SR3 was both as or more common and the abbreviation used in canon, I switched back to SR3.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Dashifen)
I use BBB because otherwise without context it's hard to refer to the edition (SR3) or the core rulebook (SR3).

Oh please. "In SR3 you can play a dwarf magician or an ork rigger." "SR3 p. XXX lists the rules for the Ares Predator."

Yeah, i's really hard to distinguish between the two. ohplease.gif
Tanka
AE: I was the same way for a while. I spent quite a few days hunting tirelessly for what BBB stood for on Google. (Other than Big Buxom Blondes, heh.)

Doc: Well, it's hard if you like being ambiguous...
Crimson Jack
I've never used the acronym, BBB. I always thought it was less descriptive than it should have been. Its amusing that this is a hot topic though. smile.gif
Critias
I'd vote "I don't really feel very strongly either way, and I'm not sure why anyone else does," if it was an option.

I mean, really, it's not that big a deal. It's like people are running out of things to take personally and shout about, or something, and so they had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to take a firm and unyielding stance about what acronym to use.

Is it really worth getting excited over, what three-letter code people use on an internet site about the rulebook for the imaginary games we play?
Sabosect
When refering to the core book in just the generic sense, I use BBB. When I want to get specific, I use SR3. Considering the book is black now, either one fits.
Dashifen
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Nov 2 2004, 12:45 PM)
I use BBB because otherwise without context it's hard to refer to the edition (SR3) or the core rulebook (SR3).

Oh please. "In SR3 you can play a dwarf magician or an ork rigger." "SR3 p. XXX lists the rules for the Ares Predator."

Yeah, i's really hard to distinguish between the two. ohplease.gif

True, however, without the context you can't tell the difference, which was my point. With BBB for the book and SR3 for the edition, there's no possibility of confusion on that matter. There is, however, possibility of confusion in the meaning of BBB. I, however, feel that this confusion is lesser than the confusion of using one acronym for two meanings. Maybe I just can't wrap my head around using one variable name for two values smile.gif My brain is a strongly typed language rotfl.gif
RedmondLarry
I'm amazed by this conversation. Why would anyone even think to use BBB one more time after someone points out that it can be confusing to the people we most want to help?
Fortune
Because it isn't that hard to ask for clarification when needed (or to use the Search function). BBB does, on the other hand, help to differentiate the game edition (technically designated as SR3) from the current Core Rulebook (technically designated as SR3).
mmu1
I generally use SR3, but I found some of the arguments against "BBB" stupid and abrasive enough I think I'll be switching just to irritate those who care about crap like this...
Austere Emancipator
Unfortunately, you cannot Search for "BBB", since the keyword needs to be at least 4 characters long. If you have no idea what it might mean, the Search function is of little help. Since it doesn't appear on srrpg.com nor anywhere else easily visible, it can confuse people. Asking is pretty much the only option.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (OurTeam)
I'm amazed by this conversation. Why would anyone even think to use BBB one more time after someone points out that it can be confusing to the people we most want to help?

See mmu1's post above for the reason. The more this goes on, the more I think you were completely right with your first post in the other thread.
DrJest
QUOTE
Because it isn't that hard to ask for clarification when needed


I asked. Nobody answered frown.gif

Although I've played since SR1, I never really hung out on any forums before. So the acronym for Big Blue Book passed me by. When I came on here, I saw people making reference to BBB, and my first thought - and indeed, for some time - was that there was a sourcebook I'd missed. A lengthy trawl of the product lists turned up nothing. It wasn't until some considerable time had passed that I realised it meant the core rulebook (presumably Big Black Book these days smile.gif ), and I spent a surprising number of hours trying to work out what book I'd missed. Sadly, an early post asking what the BBB was elicited no response - unusually, I have come to understand, but it was something of a downer. "If nobody cares enough to answer simple questions, I have to wonder whether I'm going to learn anything of value here" ran across my mind, I guiltily confess.

Fortunately I decided to post my questions anyway, and first Fortune then Ancient History answered really quite promptly, giving me a better view of the forum's community. But for the record, I would favour SR3 over BBB. Just for clarity.
Fortune
QUOTE (DrJest)
I asked. Nobody answered

Strange ... that's an unusual occurance here.
Fortune
It really is a scewed poll, since the choice should be either 'SR1, SR2, BBB' or 'SR1, SR2, SR3'. wink.gif
Shockwave_IIc
Though i understand what both mean, i prefer SR3 as it's (too me at least) Clearer to it's meaning.

Most people (i think) can guess what SR3 means BBB is a little more difficult (though not by much)
Raygun
Just use this.
Stumps
First:

As some have considered this to be scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Really...it's not. It's actually more like a festering problem that has been put up with while it derailed thread after thread after thread since I've been on Dumpshock starting back in 2002.

I was recently reminded, and agrivated, by this issue because it again derailed a thread that had nothing to do with this issue.

Accusations that were pretty vague, like "everyone" and "no one", were being used in the arguments so I, in pure fed-up frustration, decided to host a Poll to, hopefully (please dear god please!) put an end to this by letting people see an actual voting result of the population's preference of which acronym should be used and to let people have a thread to fight over this issue in rather than derail any other good threads with this friggen issue.


Second:
I REALLY wish that a commanding member of the administraion or moderation would add the Shadowrun Reference Standard AND continually update Dumpshocks prefered standards on communicable lingos that evolve out of the Forum to the Posting Guidelines in the Sticky: Welcome! at the top of the Thread listing in this Forum so that IF such acronyms as "BBB" or other non-rule-book-claimed acronyms or phrases that had arrived out of normal human nature to shorten references with quick-lingo-acronyms come into use, people knew what the hell we were all refering to.

There are other acronyms and phrases that exist on this forum that are rather confusing unless you've asked or seen conversations on them....or bothered to read the posting guide lines.
Two quick examples (one being a real good example) are: Trolling, and Flaming.

Flaming can be figured out most of the time, and other forums use it's meaning besides dumpshock.com so a good number of people already know it thankfully.
Trolling is not widely known and tends to require some explaining and an example of it usually has to be given.

Luckily for these two examples, there is the Posting Guidelines to explain them.
I do remember a day that you had to ask what Trolling was, or see someone getting accused of it to find out.

Third:
The reason that I only listed the two options instead of a third option of "I don't care" isn't because I forgot. It's because if I added that option, it would dominate the poll and therefore negate the entire issue of getting SOME form of finality by the community on the issue.
Thus, the poll represents the question, "If you HAD to choose, which one would you?"
------

So we may think this is a silly issue that is rediculous to start a thread in. Yes we may.
But I think it's a stupid issue to post in another thread! (And yes...I HAVE POSTED IT IN ANOTHER THREAD, so I am as guilty as everyone else on that.)
Fortune
Trolling and Flaming are universally used on the internet, and are in no way exclusive to these forums. The fact that a person has to learn what they mean is immaterial to the fact that they do have a universally-recognised meaning, at least in the culture of the internet. BBB also does have a recognizable meanng, a meaning that has been a community standard longer than any other 'standards' in online Shadowrun discussion (with the possible excepion of the AVS wink.gif), and it's meaning isn't hard to grasp if one is properly properly motivated.

If the subject is brought up and answered as often as you imply, then people shouldn't have a problem discerning it's meaning from already established posts. wink.gif
Stumps
Assuming it's easy for people to know something without adding it's meaning to a listing that everyone can get to is a REAL bad thing to do.
I work in Tech Support. It is a horrible idea to make assumptions of what should or shouldn't be common sense for everyone in my experience.

Hence, this is why I would REALLY like to see an updated section of the Posting Guidelines that houses phrases and acronyms and links to the Shadowrun Reference Standard.
Fortune
I have nothing against adding it to any list. I just don't think being insulted for using a virtually communally-understood acronym is necessary.
Stumps
I cannot speak for others about their choices on how they address issues.
That is entirely every single individuals choice.

I can only state, in sum, a voice that attempts to cover most every comment made (in a recent thread) by all in favor of one or the other position on the subject. That is what I was doing with the Table #1 and Table #2.
Fortune
The thing is, as I pointed out earlier, the choices are flawed, as is half the premise of your first post. Nobody uses BBB in reference to either SR1 or SR2, nor have they since the release of the third edition. The acronym BBB solely refers to the current (now SR3, but may be SR4 in the future wink.gif) Core Rulebook.

The choices should be ...

SR1, SR2, BBB

or

SR1, SR2, SR3
Ol' Scratch
Unfortunately, that's not clearly defined by the use of BBB.

Example Created to Drive a Point Home: Let's say Shadowrun 4th Edition were being released a year from now. Let's also assume that Dumpshock decides not to update its forum software or trash all the old databases of messages, but the time stamps get a little screwed up (ala 26-February-02). Now let's say a few months pass. Now let's say someone shows up and uses the Search Function to look up some old discussions about whatever. When they find some of those threads, they discover references to the enigmatic BBB.

Which book is it referring to? It's impossible to tell because BBB is a useless acronym.

Like OurTeam has repeatedly stated, the use of the acronyms are supposed to help people know what you're referring to. Using a clique'y and obscure abbreviation goes directly against that purpose.
Fortune
Not everyone uses pages numbers when referencing the Core Rulebook (as SR3), which can also lead to misunderstanding ... 'The rules for Knowledge Skills are in SR3'.

Both are extreme examples. In the long run, it doesn't do any harm, and can foster a sense of intimacy among the forumites that bother to visit more than twice.

In reality, Dumpshock needs an FAQ! biggrin.gif
Stumps
People not using page numbers to their book references should be shot for bad referencing amongst a forum filled with roughly a few thousand Rule Lawyers.
Fortune
I don't usually give page numbers (if you can't read a book, or scan it quickly for rules, you shouldn't be role-playing), because I don't have access to my books for months on end ... and I've also been known to be called a rules lawyer. wink.gif
Stumps
well, if you don't have the books that's perfectly fine.

I'm refering to those who are making specific arguments in a debate over an exact item and have a book handy but simply don't list a page number for anyone to look at.

The other reason I'm pro page numbers is that I like seeing arguments that list them because often times I find something in the rules I didn't see before.
Adam
QUOTE (Stumps)
Hence, this is why I would REALLY like to see an updated section of the Posting Guidelines that houses phrases and acronyms and links to the Shadowrun Reference Standard.

Great - when you've finished writing it, email it to me.
Fortune
Ooohhhh ... New Topic - Acronyms for Stumps to Include biggrin.gif

Have to start with the ever-popular AVS, and I'm sure you'll have to throw in a mention to the various and sundry ways in which it can interact with Ally Spirits, dikoted or otherwise. wink.gif

Maybe you should also include a sampling of generally accepted net acronyms, such as IIRC, AFAIK, or the ubiquitous YMMV. smile.gif
Kremlin KOA
hey fortune what is AVS?
Fortune
Ares Viper Slivergun smile.gif
RedmondLarry
Suggestions for Acronyms to be published is continued in this thread.
Cable
Hey, if you're not willing to learn a little local lingo, get out of the country.
Kagetenshi
Wonderful attitude. Works so well in real life.

~J
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