Full Version: Do ally spirits count toward focus addiction?
Sorry if this has been addressed before, I tried searching but didn't find anything. Um, my entire question is in the topic.
No, they're not a focus at all. They just have a power that operates similarly to one. Same goes for adepts with the Aid Spell power from SOTA:2064.
Thanks.
I'd think they would - for they are doing the same thing - the character is relying on a 'crutch' more than his own abilities.
Better ask your GM for a ruling. And give him a week to think about it. You'll get more consistency that way than from a snap ruling.
Better ask your GM for a ruling. And give him a week to think about it. You'll get more consistency that way than from a snap ruling.
given that ally spirits are formed from either a point of the mage's own magic, or as part of the mage's initiation, i have trouble seeing the use of that power by the ally spirit as a 'crutch'. the mage isn't using power from an outside source, he's using power from his own magic.
hmmm....i wonder could you apply that same logic to Foci made by the character?
I'm w/ DocFunk on this one. Also, if Ally spirits can't help w/o risking addiction, then there'd be no point in building them. Just build Power Foci; less issues of independance, fussing w/ morale, and keeping them "happy".
The hijacked question I have is, can you use Power Foci and/or Ally Spirit dice greater than your Sorcery Skill to cast or does all that extra dice just make a bigger Sorcery Pool? If you're capped, then there would reach a point of diminishing returns on how big a pool is really useful.
The hijacked question I have is, can you use Power Foci and/or Ally Spirit dice greater than your Sorcery Skill to cast or does all that extra dice just make a bigger Sorcery Pool? If you're capped, then there would reach a point of diminishing returns on how big a pool is really useful.
Refer to the focus or use of Sorcery in question and see what it has to say. By default there are no limits.
foci made by the character don't include an investment of the character's magical ability. karma, yes, but not magic. the argument would not apply.
Even a focus you make is not as tightly linked to you as your ali spirit. A ruling that foci you made counted as lower force would make some sense but would encourage the over use of enchanting at which point you have to ask “why the frell do you run the shadows”.
By canon aid sorcery provided by an ali spirit or elemental is not a focus and thus dose not count for focus addiction. If any GM I play with wants to change that they had better tell me before I start playing a character that would use one of these.
Edward
By canon aid sorcery provided by an ali spirit or elemental is not a focus and thus dose not count for focus addiction. If any GM I play with wants to change that they had better tell me before I start playing a character that would use one of these.
Edward
Another way to avoid focus addiction with the aid of an ally is to:
1) let the ally bond the sustaining focus
2) cast the spell
3) sustain it for you
Need to watch for the ally concerning its own focus addiction.
1) let the ally bond the sustaining focus
2) cast the spell
3) sustain it for you
Need to watch for the ally concerning its own focus addiction.
Ally Spirits can't bond foci. They have no Karma.
You are right. I must have made it a house rule based on free spirits getting bound, given karma, ordered what to do with said karma. Cross that with being able to give an ally karma pool. Oops!
Another reason to bind one of these thousands of free sprits that have been freed.
Another reason to bind one of these thousands of free sprits that have been freed.
tisoz, once bound they are no longer a free spirit. Just my .02 nuyen.
Sure they are, they're just no longer free Free Spirits. 
Taking the argument to one extreme,
Mage1 has sorcery 6, a power focus [6], an ally spirit [6], and an adept-buddy with aid sorcery [6].
How many dice can the mage use to cast his ToxicWave spell?
Mage1 has sorcery 6, a power focus [6], an ally spirit [6], and an adept-buddy with aid sorcery [6].
How many dice can the mage use to cast his ToxicWave spell?
By the rules, 30. By most GMs, 12... possibly 18.
You forgot the earth elemental (also force 6) and spell pool to put you to about 36 dice. 38 if you are an earth aligned mage.
Thanks Herald--I missed all the steps, I was trying to use all of the fragments that had been raised earlier...but damn...
Is there a limit on how many adepts can use their Aid Spell power on the same mage simultaneously? Evil machinations of magical groups all pouring their power into one person or even one group, ritual sorcery here we come...
Is there a limit on how many adepts can use their Aid Spell power on the same mage simultaneously? Evil machinations of magical groups all pouring their power into one person or even one group, ritual sorcery here we come...
Nope, no limit.
| QUOTE (McQuillan @ Nov 11 2004, 04:03 PM) |
| Taking the argument to one extreme, Mage1 has sorcery 6, a power focus [6], an ally spirit [6], and an adept-buddy with aid sorcery [6]. How many dice can the mage use to cast his ToxicWave spell? |
Taken to the extreme ...
Elf Mage has:
Earth-Aligned 2
Sorcery 6
Spell Pool 6
Power Focus 6
Adept Buddy 6
Ally Spirit 6
Elemental 48 (8x6)
*If only one allowed, then 6
Manipulation Focus 6
Toxic Wave Focus 6 (only on of these is Mage is under Grade 3 Initiate, or wants to risk Focus Addiction)
For a total of ... 92!
*50 if only allowed 1 Elemental.
Then factor Karma!
[note] I probably forgot something.
[edit] Add additional Adepts to taste (Magic Rating?), and also add in multiple Ally Spirits if available.
[/edit][edit -edit] Added race ...
I don't know the Path bonuses off-hand, but +2 for aspected is alright.
You'd be better off with a Path Magician (the one who gets Earth Elementals and Manipulation spell bonuses; don't have MitS handy) casting the spell in his Irish county during his bonus season with one of those Path Magic foci thingies in Shadows of Europe. (Beyond my awesome knowledge of the game. "Thingies." Pfft. I feel dirty.)
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Elemental 36 (6x6) |
No, only one elemental can be used on each casting.
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Nov 11 2004, 04:24 PM) |
| No, only one elemental can be used on each casting. |
I may be just forgetting a rule, but are you sure? I rarely play Hermetics, but isn't there a rule that states the Mage can command all his Elementals of one type to perform a similar service with one action?
SR3, page 187, last line before it states what spells each elemental type can aid.
| QUOTE |
| Only one elemental at a time can aid a character this way. |
It wouldn't matter if hermetics could give mass commands like riggers can, this power is restricted to one elemental per spellcasting.
Just bringing this back to starting character for a moment.
elementally aligned 2
Sorcery 6
Spell pool 6
Applicable focus 6
Other applicable focus 6
Elemental 6
32 dice. For when you absolutely must kill every mother Frager in the room.
By the time your able to pull your suggestion I would be expecting more sorcery thus more spell pool and an initiated adept. 100 dice would not be unreasonable (ok it would be unreasonable but not unachievable). For when you really want there to be a fraging room.
Edward
elementally aligned 2
Sorcery 6
Spell pool 6
Applicable focus 6
Other applicable focus 6
Elemental 6
32 dice. For when you absolutely must kill every mother Frager in the room.
By the time your able to pull your suggestion I would be expecting more sorcery thus more spell pool and an initiated adept. 100 dice would not be unreasonable (ok it would be unreasonable but not unachievable). For when you really want there to be a fraging room.
Edward
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) | ||
SR3, page 187, last line before it states what spells each elemental type can aid.
|
That's cool. Like I said, I was overlooking something.
I know this topic has basically migrated to "how to get arround focus addiction", but I couldn't help dropping my jaw at some of the early postings like:
| QUOTE (Lantzer) |
| I'd think they would - for they are doing the same thing - the character is relying on a 'crutch' more than his own abilities. Better ask your GM for a ruling. And give him a week to think about it. You'll get more consistency that way than from a snap ruling. |
And
| QUOTE (LinaInverse) |
| I'm w/ DocFunk on this one. |
I'm not picking on you guys, but this isn't a house rule really.
It's right there in the book.
SR3, p189, Foci:
"A focus (plural: foci) is a magical item. To mundanes, foci are ordinary objects with no magic at all. To the Awakened, they are a source of power, assisting in the use of magical skills."
SR3, p260, Spirits and Dragons:
"Spirits, on the other hand, are paranormal beings that live on the astral plane, having no physical body."
SR3, p190, Spirit Foci:
"A spirit focus provides extra dice for use in summoning, controlling and banashing a single type of elemetal or nature spirit. The type of spirit must be declared when the focus is purchased."
There's no debating if a spirit falls or does not fall under the addiction rules for foci.
A focus is something that is an item.
A spirit is an astral being, not an item.
To mundanes, a focus looks like a non-interesting object.
To mundanes, a spirit will make them crap their pants.
Sorry to side-rail the present course of the conversation, but Doc is completely solid in his accruracy and wasn't taking a guess.
I think we all either knew that, or just figured that was the case, and then moved on.
As for rolling 50 dice on a spellcasting test, isn't there a blanket statement saying that you can never add more pool dice to a skill test?
So it'd have to be 12 dice for the spellcasting, and 50 dice to resist drain (assuming Will 6), since there is no pool restriction on any type of damage resistance, right?
So it'd have to be 12 dice for the spellcasting, and 50 dice to resist drain (assuming Will 6), since there is no pool restriction on any type of damage resistance, right?
Note that all the other dice do not come from any Pool. Only the 6 Spell Pool dice have been added, which is in keeping with the character's Sorcery skill of 6. All the other dice are not subject to the restriction on Pools.
That's only a restriction for the Spell Pool to begin with (a limitation of that particular pool because, for the umpteenth time this week, that's the exception not the rule; SR3 p. 43). If casting the spell at an astral target, the magician could add his Astral Pool to the party, too.
to Fortune: touche
| QUOTE |
| That's only a restriction for the Spell Pool to begin with (a limitation of that particular pool because, for the umpteenth time this week, that's the exception not the rule; SR3 p. 43). |
Yeah yeah ... I did get it earlier this week. I probably should have said 'restriction on this Pool'.
I have been meaning to go through the different Pools and find all the ones that do not have a limit based on skill level ... but I'm just too damn lazy.
| QUOTE |
| If casting the spell at an astral target, the magician could add his Astral Pool to the party, too. |
Are you saying that mage with Sorcery 6, using 6 Spell Pool could also use even more dice from his Astral Pool?
I know I don't have to point it out, but that is the very subject of the question in the Official (
) FAQ. (not that this means dick to you, I know).I realize I'm rambling (it's very very late!), and am not going to change your mind even if I was right, which, given your earlier point, might not be the case. Your point is that because the Astral Pool contains no such skill level limitation, it can be added on top of the Spell Pool.
Food for thought, but I choose to go by the FAQ restriction in this case, and limit dice from all Pools to a maximum of the level of the skill used. Which particular Pools those dice come from are totally up the the PC though.
As written, the rules allow it. Sorcery limits the amount of Spell Pool dice that can be used with it; that doesn't apply to any other Pool unless that Pool specifies a similar restriction. Astral Pool has no such restriction, so yes, someone with Sorcery 6, Spell Pool 6, and Astral Pool 3 could toss 15 dice.
So what Pools do (or do not) contain that limitation?
My previous comment on my laziness is not really true ... I just can't look it up right now.
My previous comment on my laziness is not really true ... I just can't look it up right now.
It varies. Most dice pools don't have that limitation, it's the use of specific pools that typically does. Combat Pool with use of combat skills, Spell Pool with use of spellcasting, and Hacking Pool with use of the Computers skill are all examples... but likewise, you have Dodging with Combat Pool, Spell Defense with Spell Pool, and improving your Detection Factor with Hacking Pool that have no reliance on skills or skill limitations whatsoever, too.
Actually, that's fair enough. I don't like restrictions on the Doge test, and I run Spell Defence in a different manner than canon, I can see where the specifics come in.
Oh, and thanks.
I would still limit the Spell/Astral Pool combo though.
Oh, and thanks.
I would still limit the Spell/Astral Pool combo though.
Going back to the original question, for Stumps' benefit...
For the record, after thinking about it, I agree with Funkenstein's interpretation as well. Like I said before - give a person time to think about it - you get better consistency that way.
For the record, after thinking about it, I agree with Funkenstein's interpretation as well. Like I said before - give a person time to think about it - you get better consistency that way.
For my benefit?
Man, All I ever said in this thread was "No, as per says the book, see *points to sections*"
That was it.
I only took this peek in here this time because I was about to post an only somewhat serious post that simply read:
"NO! THEY DON'T!"
Just cause I see this thread all the time and it keeps bugging me with it's title question.
What exactly is it that's for my sake again?
Man, All I ever said in this thread was "No, as per says the book, see *points to sections*"
That was it.
I only took this peek in here this time because I was about to post an only somewhat serious post that simply read:
"NO! THEY DON'T!"
Just cause I see this thread all the time and it keeps bugging me with it's title question.
What exactly is it that's for my sake again?
Except Astral Pool dice cannot be used for Magical Skill Tests. MITS p. 58
Damn, he's right. 
A-yup... I never noticed that before. No biggie, though, since I've almost always just used it as a superior form of Aura Reading.
As have I. I was just getting used to the idea of a nice extra Pool for Astral casting though. 
It still can add to Astral Combat when using Sorcery (in addition to Astral Combat Pool, Doc?), which is pretty cool for projecting (and even preceiving) magicians.
It still can add to Astral Combat when using Sorcery (in addition to Astral Combat Pool, Doc?), which is pretty cool for projecting (and even preceiving) magicians.
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