Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: New Martial Art
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Toptomcat
Sha Jin Shu Ban fa
A style created by a group of Chinese monks in the hope that their martial arts would remain relevant in this age of cyberware and magic, the Metal Killing way capitalizes on the tiny faults given fighting styles develop when augmented by cyberware or magic.
Benefit: Access to a number of unique maneuvers, as well as a wide variety of standard ones
Disadvantage: A paractitioner of the Metal Killing Way cannot use cyberware, or be a Physical Adept, mage , or shaman.
Maneuvers:
All the standard maneuvers minus Vicious Blow, Sweep and Ground Fighting, and plus the manuvers described below.

Anti-Cyber Fighting (better name?)
Cyberware is hard on the body, and those using it tend to become dependant on it- creating and widening pressure points and introducing minute flaws into the user's fighting style. Anti-Cyber Fighting takes full advantage of these problems, enabling an uncybered martial artist to capitalize on them fully.
For every two full point of Essence under 6 the opponent posesses due to cyberware, the character gains one extra die on Metal Killing Way tests that can only be used against that opponent.

Anti-Magic Fighting (better name?)
Fundamental technique has a way of being neglected when magic guides one's every strike, creating openings that a clever opponent can exploit.
For every two points of Improved Ability the opponent has in the melee combat skill he is currantly using, the character gains one extra die on Metal Killing Way tests that can only be used against that opponent.


I created this martial art to make the archetype of the non-Adept martial artist a not-completely-suicidal proposition. Thoughts?
Tanka
...Ewww...

Theoretically (since we can't officially say anything on cyber/magic, as it doesn't exist), the cyber wouldn't expand any pressure points, as they're just points. If anything, some cyber would stop pressure points from being used.

And adding dice? Dude, no. Maybe lowering TNs, but not adding dice.
mfb
i think you're going about this MA the wrong way. for one, cyberware and magic are two very deep, very divergent fields; the idea that one single MA can exploit both their weaknesses is a bit much to take. for another, it feels heavy-handed and railroadish to say you can't learn this art if you've got cyber or are a physad. also, simply adding dice feels kinda silly, and kinda flat. if you gave them the capability to cause stress to cyberware, or cause temporary magic loss (a la banishing), i can see it working okay. but not extra dice, and not extra abilities for both anti-cyber and anti-magic.
Shev
In my opinion, it still doesn't make the mundane martial a viable option. No matter how many dice extra they get, they won't be able to match the adept. It works slightly better against the wired-to-hell sammy, but both the adept and the sammy will still be fast, at with at least two more initiative dice to roll. (And if you house rule melee like I do where you have to sacrifice an initiative pass you have available to counterattack. Otherwise, you have to use full defense)

Edit: My personal opinion on the matter: no matter how hard you try, an off-the-rack mundane will not be able to take on a physad or a cyberguy.

Let me make a comparison here: basketball. Imagine that in a few years, people start being born abnormally tall, so tall that the can just drop the ball right into the basket while his frantic opponents can only jump as high as his knees. Now imagine that, to compete, some basketball players become adept (no pun intended) at using stilts and so can match the naturally tall players.

Now, will the non-stilt non-tall players be able to compete with the ones who are on a 1-1 ratio? Simple answer: no. However, if they work well as a team, they can overcome the (fewer in number) tall and stilt players.

Simply put, most prime(combat oriented) runners are gonna have either a lot of magic or a lot of cyber in them. Not to say that a mundane non-cyber can't be useful, just not as in regards to combat.
Toptomcat
So, making it better.
-1 TN rather than +1/2 Essence or IA dice? Init bonuses? Negation of init bonuses?
I particularly like the idea of causing cyberware stress. Can you expand on it?

I don't think the mundane MA a totally non-viable option with this, as both cyber scans and astral assensing will come up nil. I don't want to make him able to win a fight with a cybered-to-hell sammie or super-adept, just able to survive combat with both for a few rounds.
mfb
*shrug* just give the martial artist the option of causing a point of cyberware stress instead of damage. say, one point of stress for every two boxes of damage he would have otherwise done.
Stumps
jin shu - metal 金属
sha - To Kill 殺
ban fa - way/method 辦法

Those are big5 translations.
As to their order...I couldn't really say.
Toptomcat
Many thanks. I'll just put them up in any old order for now.
Kagetenshi
If you're going for an anti-cyborg martial art, why not just call it the Panzer Kunst?

~J
Tanka
Well, I don't know a lot of grammar for that language (Chinese? Japanese?), but I can guess...

Jin Shu Sha Ban Fa.

Usually Oriental languages (well, and most other languages outside of English) have all their sentences "backwards" from us. Usually.

Don't take that translation as absolute, because it almost assuredly isn't.
Glyph
Sorry to say, but it seems a bit contrived (as well as a bit overpowered) to me. My opinion is that giving special perks to uncybered mundanes undermines the dual cyberware and magic themes: the cyberware theme is one of becoming superhuman at the expense of trading in your humanity, while the magical theme is like that of the X-Men: you have neat special abilities and powers that set you apart from normal metahumanity, but you are alternately idolized, hated, and feared for something you were born with.

Mundanes should have to struggle to survive in the world of Shadowrun. Only by skill, cunning, and clever tactics can they hope to survive. They are best as faces, snipers, or skill monkeys. Even in those fields, they are at a disadvantage. As faces, they don't have the social adept's special powers, a spellslingers mind-reading and mind-control spells, or the sammie's cultured pheromes. As a sniper, they come closest, but don't have the sammie's overall combat versatility or the adept's improved ability. Even as a skill monkey, they can be outdone by someone with skillwires and a CED: 3 who can slot a chip for whatever skill he needs, or they can watch someone with a mnemonic enhancer learn at a greater pace than them.

But that fits the theme of Shadowrun, as they look at the awakened characters with envy and are constantly tempted to get "just one" piece of cyberware or bioware that could make them so much better.


If you want to survive combat with an adept or sammie for a few rounds, get a martial arts skill of 6 (Better yet, get the Ambidexterity Edge and use two weapons for extra dice), max your Strength and Body, take the Toughness and High Pain Tolerance Edges, and get some decent impact armor. If you have a decent Combat Pool, you can come close to matching some sammies and adepts. You might even win some fights against sammies or adepts - not all of them are oriented towards melee. If you have a mundane who is not combat-oriented but has a decent Combat Pool, consider the Full Defense option when attacked.
Stumps
Get rid of the magic thing.
Chinese monks wouldn't be against magic. "Chi" and all other concepts like it are readily common in chinese thought and art forms.

Machined "cyborgs", on the other hand. Well now, there's something that stikes tradition the wrong way so I can see them fighting that specifically.

So, first.
The name. Um...Metal Killing Way would suggest that the art is a way to kill with metal, not how to kill the metal "men".

The Way to Kill Metal is more appopriate, but if you still would rather only have the three words then, Killing Metal Way.

Second. Their art is supposed to exploit the weeknesses of cyberware, which if you look at it, is that it causes a low essence.
The only way you are going to make that available to show it like this.
(warning: may cause necks to tighten the wrong way from dislike in it's turn away from cannon)

The art concentrates on the energy of CHI. Chi is the essence of life, it is the life, energy, and essence in all man-kind and all living things in the world.
These "Cyborgs" have taken it upon themselves to strip themselves of some of their Chi, their essence in trade for an upper hand (no pun intended) from cyber-implantation.
The Metal Killing Way monks channel in on the "cyborgs" essence and strike it with their own powerful control and force of Chi.

"Great flavor, what the hell does that mean when I roll?"
When attacking with this artform, the attacker targets the defenders essence.
All rolls for the attack will be as normal melee rolls, but the defender rolls their essence (rounded down, but no lesser than 1) rather than rolling their Body to defend against the attack.


That's my two nuyen.
And it hits the cyber guys where it hurts.
Crimson Jack
Ya know, a really good way to tell if something is "munchkinny" is to ask yourself, "how would I feel if my GM made me face one of these guys?" I would tend to think that my group, in particular, would find this to be an overly nasty baddie for me to toss in the mix of any combat. That's just me though. Do what thou wilt. wink.gif
Tanka
Actually, it isn't "munchy" more than it is just... Underdeveloped.

The mundane still isn't going to do much versus a wired character (or any character with some form of Initiative enhancement).

Granted, there are things like Jazz to help in that, but that's temporary.

In the long run, the cybered/Awakened character wins out. They get far too many benefits over a mundane with no 'ware.
zenpoetsix
i have a completely mundane character in the game i play and she's one of the scariest characters in my game...you have to play a mundane like batman..think about...batman has no powers but yet he's the scariest person in the j.l.a....why? everyone one else think one or two steps ahead...batman thinks 10 steps ahead of everyone....that;s the way she plays it...plans within plans within plans and back-up plans for everything....makes for interesting gaming.
Tanka
Like somebody else said, mundanes are usually Skill Monkeys.

Average mundne Human:

Attributes: 30
Skills: 40
Resources: 90,000 nuyen.gif

With no 'ware to spend on... A gun or two, maybe a melee weapon, ammo, a bit of lifestyle, and Contacts. Top that off with 40 skill points, with maybe two combat abilities, and you've got the makings of a good Skill Monkey.
mintcar
but a mundane without cyber will have much more points to spend on skills and attributes. I agree this wont make it possible to be a better combatant than the wired character, but in a brawl its the skill that counts. And the wired reflexes wont help much. I´d say close combat is the best option for a mundane au natural dude taking on a wired guy.

Then you have the wealth of leftover skill points you can spend actually knowing stuff instead of just chiping it. And the comfie feeling of not having itchy foreign objects stuck in you, not having your humanity fading away and not having your gamemaster telling you that your skillwires need a firmware upgrade to work with the new activesofts rotate.gif

<<<edit>>> two posts while I wrote this.
toturi
The MA is good in principle but a little shaky in execution. Those manuevers are not muchkinny, but they simply do not fit into the flavour of the MAs. The central theme of MAs are always reflected in the Adv./Disadv, the maneuvers are tacked on more for variance.

From a game balance POV, the enhanced guy has sacrificed something(BPs) for his enhancement, what has the mundane spent to gain this slight increase in ability against enhanced people as opposed to normal people who do not have this skill?
Tanka
QUOTE (mintcar)
but a mundane without cyber will have much more points to spend on skills and attributes. I agree this wont make it possible to be a better combatant than the wired character, but in a brawl its the skill that counts. And the wired reflexes wont help much. I´d say close combat is the best option for a mundane au natural dude taking on a wired guy.

Not if the Sammie has 'ware to boost his Body, Quickness, Strength, and Intelligence. More able to soak thanks to higher Body + Combat Pool, higher TN for staging after being hit, more Combat Pool to roll for checking who gets hit.

Let's not forget things like cyberspurs/razors, cyberweapons (guns, shotguns, SMGs in the arm), and all sorts of things like those.

Basically, the mundane is usually going to do worse in any combat against a Sammie. The Sammie just has more toys to make up for the lack of points in Attributes and Skills.
Stumps
I stand by my suggestions of fixing it in balance.
When metal killing monks attack cyber guys, the cyber guy had to defend by rolling their essence rather than their body.

It's simple. And it represents the idea.
KarmaInferno
Someone's been reading Battle Angel manga?


-karma
Glyph
@Stumps: How is that "balanced", though? It lets mundane characters or adepts virtually insta-kill cybered characters, who, probably rolling 1 die, if any, will have no chance to even stage Damage down. It lets you easily take down the fractional-Essense troll who has 11 points of Body before dermal plating, etc. It's only "balanced" if you really, really want to discourage anyone from ever playing a cybered character in your campaign.


By the way, looking at Tanka's A: Attributes, B: Skills, C: Resources mundane character, I would like to point out that under the point system, that would only be 110 build points. So in games using the point system, you will have even more in the way of skills and/or resources for a mundane character.
Stumps
Sorry, I didn't follow throuh.
It would be all stun damage for one.
And you could further that by saying that the TN to downstage it's damage would be 2 or 3 instead of 4.

Shrug...I wouldn't add this art to my game in the first place really.
Just Jonny
It seems to me that the obvious way to counter these metal killers is just to keep it ranged. Provided that .5 Essence sammie has a smartgun link and a gun, I kinda doubt these guys'd do much. All the melee dice in the world don't matter at 5 meters.
Stumps
exactly.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (KarmaInferno)
Someone's been reading Battle Angel manga?

Of course. How could we not?

QUOTE (Just Jonny)
All the melee dice in the world don't matter at 5 meters.


But they do, because five meters can be covered in no time flat.

~J
mintcar
I just think that a mundane character with no cyber and no magic should be inferior. I´m arguing that they aren´t exactly that bad off. But now I´m also saying that it´s good they are underdogs. It´s what makes it an interesting choice.

I can understand how a player who chose that concept without knowing how inferior they would become might be pissed off though... What about EMP or something like that. Ion guns in Star Wars. Something that hits electronics. Nearly all cybernetics will have at least some microscopic electronic components.
mfb
no kidding. i mean, if cyber and magic didn't make you better than a mundane human, why the hell would anyone invest all the resources it requires to advance in those fields? everybody would just be cyberless mundanes.
Thistledown
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
If you're going for an anti-cyborg martial art, why not just call it the Panzer Kunst?

~J

Panzer Junst is designed for cyborgs fighting cyborgs. I think this would be something more similar to what Figure4 uses. Having lent out those books at the moment, I can't come up with details on it right now.

I would say no to the essence idea as it is, it's overpowered. But I would say that cyberware does make a person overconfident, especially if they know their opponant doesn't have any. Magic, in many cases, does the same thing. They underestimate you, and slip up. This could result in the target numbers for the MA used to go down a little.

And mint, there are quite a few other threads that deal with using EMP's against cyber. Do a search a month back or so, and you'll find it.
Wounded Ronin
I don't think I could swallow it.

Anti-metal way reminds me of "anti-grappling" today.

After the UFCs became popular a lot of martial artists who didn't train grappling saw themselves being discredited to a certain extent with the public. In order to keep business up and feel more relevant, many of them claimed that they could teach "anti-grappling" techniques that would make grappling useless against them.

"Anti-grappling" usually consists of counters to a double leg takedown like a knee to the face as a guy goes in. Eye gouges and silly finger twists are often shown as some kind of substitute for actually learning how to wrestle. The whole idea of "anti-grappling" relies to a certain extent on some martial strawmanning, since an intelligent opponent wouldn't even go for a double leg without distracting you with a setup first.

In practice, though, someone who has no grappling background would be unlikely to be able to make these things apply against a skilled fighter with a mixed martial arts background. This ties into bigger issues of the mentality that many martial artists have, but we won't get into that.

The bottom line is that "anti-grappling" is a very silly concept. If a group of martial artists sat down and tried to make up a few "anti-metal" techniques with none of them being cybered or being experts in cyber-implant weaponry, it would probably be similarly ineffective. The blind leading the blind based on some ideology.


There are many hilarious anecdotes I could bring up to discredit the "antigrappling" movement, but for now, here's just a discussion: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread...=anti+grappling
Tanka
QUOTE (mintcar)
I can understand how a player who chose that concept without knowing how inferior they would become might be pissed off though... What about EMP or something like that. Ion guns in Star Wars. Something that hits electronics. Nearly all cybernetics will have at least some microscopic electronic components.

Doesn't work. Cyberware runs off of bioelectricity, not electricity (huge difference), as well as the fact that the body is a semi-natural resistor. (Trust me, we don't conduct too well unless we're wet.)

The heart pumps thanks to an electrical signal. Set off an EMP and the heart doesn't shut down. Set off five and it doesn't shut down. Set off one hundred, still beating. Shoot a guy in the head and the heart dies because there are no more signals from the brain.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (tanka)
bioelectricity, not electricity (huge difference)

I hope you weren't serious with this?
Tanka
Only on Tuesdays?
John Campbell
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (tanka)
bioelectricity, not electricity (huge difference)

I hope you weren't serious with this?

Well, since the human body doesn't produce anywhere near enough electricity to run any kind of useful cyberware, this "bioelectricity" thing that cyber runs off is clearly something totally different.
Ol' Scratch
My long-term theory has been that the same thing that allows magicians to channel mana from the astral plane into the physical realm is the same thing that allows cyberware to run off of bioelectricity. That's not to say it's magic, only that the Awakening brought with it a yet-to-be-classified biological phenomenon. Science has been able to exploit it (I'm sure the guys responsible for the violinist guy's cyberhand were as surprised as everyone else when their technology worked as well as it did), but not necessarily identify it. Instead, they just called it "Essence."

There's a reason fully-functional implants didn't start working until after the Awakening, afterall. smile.gif Hell, it even provides a reason for why Essence loss hampers your ability to weild Magic -- all of the juice you have channeled into powering your implants is juice not being used to channel mana through your body.

I know it's not popular, especially amidst the "technology and magic can't combine!!!!" fanatics, but I like it.
Bane
QUOTE (Stumps)
So, first.
The name. Um...Metal Killing Way would suggest that the art is a way to kill with metal, not how to kill the metal "men".

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's correct and accurate. Sort of like "Daylight Saving Time" or "Dog walking time."

As to the actual MA... I'll agree with some other people. Focus on either cyber or magic, not both.
Tanka
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
My long-term theory has been that the same thing that allows magicians to channel mana from the astral plane into the physical realm is the same thing that allows cyberware to run off of bioelectricity. That's not to say it's magic, only that the Awakening brought with it a yet-to-be-classified biological phenomenon. Science has been able to exploit it (I'm sure the guys responsible for the violinist guy's cyberhand were as surprised as everyone else when their technology worked as well as it did), but not necessarily identify it. Instead, they just called it "Essence."

There's a reason fully-functional implants didn't start working until after the Awakening, afterall. smile.gif Hell, it even provides a reason for why Essence loss hampers your ability to weild Magic -- all of the juice you have channeled into powering your implants is juice not being used to channel mana through your body.

I know it's not popular, especially amidst the "technology and magic can't combine!!!!" fanatics, but I like it.

That's about the way I read it, actually.
Conskill
A good way to look at it, though it makes me wince at what would happen at the end of the SR mana cycle.

"I just got this Omegaware cyberheart and it...ack!" (Thud.)
Kagetenshi
Actually, that'd be an interesting campaign. A post-apocalyptic setting where Humanity beat back the Horrors with ease (not that I think it'll happen, but that isn't relevant here), all got heavily cyberaugmented, and then had to strap large batteries to themselves when the mana levels dropped too far.

~J
Tanka
Sadly, that's also a good way to see it.

However, who knows? Maybe by then the magical scholars will have figured out a way to extend the cycle indefinitely.

Assuming the figure out there's a cycle to begin with and not just some happenstance.
Stumps
These guys should have to be adepts to use this martial art.
Then all you really need is a simple -1TN in melee when facing Cyber guys.

OTOH, they suck at taking damage from cyber guys because they are completely "naked" against such power (and as someone said, they don't know much about it) so perhaps they deserve a +1TN to stage down melee damage dealt to them by a cyber guy.

So:

MA: Metal Killing Way
Pre-requisite: Adept
Bonus: -1TN in melee when facing an opponent that has cyber implant.
Flaw: +1TN to stage down any damage taken in melee from an opponent with cyber implant.
Ol' Scratch
I simply don't understand the philosophy behind either of these.

Cyberware and adept powers are simply tools. It's no different than mundane tools. Whether your opponent is using a pair of retractable spurs or is a mundane using forearm snap blades, they're both fighting exactly the same way (assuming everything else is equal, particularly their martial training).

It's a silly idea. Or more correctly, it's a silly idea as presented. A better plan would be to create either a generic maneuver or an Edge that reflected your training in taking on a specific martial art or group of weapons. For example, learning all the in-and-outs of Polearm Fighting would give you some insight on how to defeat someone weilding a Polearm. Same goes for Cyber-Implant Combat, Brawling, Kung Fu, Edged Weapons, and every other melee skill. As a maneuver or edge, a simple -1 TN in those situations would work out just fine.
Stumps
That's basically what I was suggesting...I didn't say it right though, but yeah, that -1TN up there in my post is supposed to be their manuever thing.

the +1 was just a throw in cause people were wanting a counter-balance to their bonus, and the Adept requirement was added cause ... um....they're warrior monks from aisia who hate technology! grinbig.gif
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
My long-term theory has been that the same thing that allows magicians to channel mana from the astral plane into the physical realm is the same thing that allows cyberware to run off of bioelectricity. That's not to say it's magic, only that the Awakening brought with it a yet-to-be-classified biological phenomenon. Science has been able to exploit it (I'm sure the guys responsible for the violinist guy's cyberhand were as surprised as everyone else when their technology worked as well as it did), but not necessarily identify it. Instead, they just called it "Essence."

There's a reason fully-functional implants didn't start working until after the Awakening, afterall. smile.gif Hell, it even provides a reason for why Essence loss hampers your ability to weild Magic -- all of the juice you have channeled into powering your implants is juice not being used to channel mana through your body.

I know it's not popular, especially amidst the "technology and magic can't combine!!!!" fanatics, but I like it.

This is a good theory, except it doesn't take into account what happens when you enter a mana warp. If this were right, cyber-junkies leaving the manasphere would have to strap huge batteries to themselves or die the moment they hit the mana warp.

OTOH, it does explain why cyberzombies create their own background count; they're sucking so much mana out of astral space to stay alive that they're creating a vacum of sorts. I like the idea, but if it were truw some things would have to be changed, that mana warp thing being the biggest.
tjn
Manawarps, for mundanes, don't strip mana. Without the direct connection to the astral plane, a manawarp's effect is limited.

However, according to the theory, the cyberjunkies create enough mana on their own to power those implants. So long as they do not need ambient mana to survive and have no direct connection to the mana field (read cyberzombies), they'd be fine.

They wouldn't exactly contribute much to reducing the manawarp, but they'd power their implants fine.

Now, when the link between man and mana disappears, all they'd have left is chunks of metal in their bodies that either don't work, deteriorate and are flushed out of the body, or cause the death of the subject.

EDIT: I just wanna add that I really like the idea, and it makes much more sense then canon.
Ol' Scratch
Nope, it has nothing to do with mana whatsoever. The theory is that whatever the biological process it is that allows magicians to channel mana also allows cyberware to work... the Awakening was an Awakening of that biological process in addition to the rise of mana.

The reason science hasn't been able to nail the genetic code for Awakened genes is the same reason they haven't been able to successfully explain why cyberware can run off bioelectricity or why it affects magic -- because they don't have a frelling clue. smile.gif
tjn
Well, I thought I had it figured out. (And it made sense to me anyways nyahnyah.gif )

What powers the implants in yer theory then? Or does the fact it's in the body somehow reduce the implant's energy needs to the point where bioelectric energy is enough to sustain it?

Doesn't quite matter if it is allowed to work if there's no gas to drive the engine.
Ol' Scratch
Like I said originally, they call it "Essence" for lack of a better word. No one knows why they work the way they do, only that they do... so they exploit it and try to act like they know why. You just have to read any of the fluff material on the subject in the sourcebooks to see that they have no clue whatsoever. smile.gif

"It does what it does because you have it wired into the nervous system."
"So why does Bone Lacing ruin magic?"
"Err... look, an elephant!" <runs away>
mintcar
Yeah, they try as best they can to add som logic to it. Anyway, I must have missed or forgot about that cyber doesn´t use external power sources. Interesting. Does big metal arms and legs run on oxygen like regular arms and legs do? (simplyfied anyway) I´m going to have a look at Man and Machine now.

<<<edit>>> I just looked it up in Man and Machine. It says that cyber limbs are powered by energy from other parts of the body. That is rediculous. They must have discovered some way to emulate the way the body creates it´s energy. Or... maybe the energy needed to power say, a str 10 cyber arm is so evenly collected from around the body that the body simply thinks that it is in constant labour. (not the kind were your having a baby. dunno, just sounded strange that sentence) So the guy needs to eat a hell of alot more. I´m going to stop thinking and watch a movie now.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I simply don't understand the philosophy behind either of these.

Cyberware and adept powers are simply tools. It's no different than mundane tools. Whether your opponent is using a pair of retractable spurs or is a mundane using forearm snap blades, they're both fighting exactly the same way (assuming everything else is equal, particularly their martial training).

It's a silly idea. Or more correctly, it's a silly idea as presented. A better plan would be to create either a generic maneuver or an Edge that reflected your training in taking on a specific martial art or group of weapons. For example, learning all the in-and-outs of Polearm Fighting would give you some insight on how to defeat someone weilding a Polearm. Same goes for Cyber-Implant Combat, Brawling, Kung Fu, Edged Weapons, and every other melee skill. As a maneuver or edge, a simple -1 TN in those situations would work out just fine.

It's just anti-grappling all over again.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012