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DrJest
I'm currently thrashing out the details of a character for Quartos's game on RPGi. During the discussions - which involved a Personal Enhance Aim (Extended) spell - he commented that as a Detection spell Enhance Aim would run the risk of being resisted.

I'm intrigued. It's something I'd never even considered. For some reason, I think I'd got the idea that the spell affected me, not my targets, although I see what he's getting at.

What do the rest of you think?

NOTE: I'm not looking to circumvent the GM here, I just thought it would be an interesting topic for discussion.
Ol' Scratch
By canon, it is resisted by anyone and everyone it would be used against. In practice, I've never seen a GM do it. Myself included.
Stumps
huh...well...that sounds silly. I've never used that spell (haven't been a mage often, though they are often in the party).

Imagine if I said, Enhanced Vision: can be countered by those you see.

Um...huh? So I can see better unless they roll a counter to it that suddenly puts a pocket void in my vision?

Strange concept to me.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (Stumps)
Imagine if I said, Enhanced Vision: can be countered by those you see.

Those should be Health Spells anyway.
Ol' Scratch
Actually, there should be at least two categories of Detection Spells. Those that alter your ability to perceive, and those that reveal information to you.
tisoz
I kind of hate that TN 6 (combat sense is TN 4), that it needs 2 successes per point of reduction, that it is maximum reduction of half of Force. And you need some way of sustaining it to be of real use.
Ol' Scratch
Getting a -2 bonus at Force 4 is pretty easy, but anything beyond that requires tons of mojo and Karma Rerolls. But that's as it should be.. gives magicians with a combat focus a chance of duplicating a Smartlink's bonus without the cyber.
tisoz
With 12 dice aren't you looking at a reroll or 2 to get four successes? So anytime you need to drop and recast it, you are running through your karma pool.

I think 4 successes on 12 dice would take a lot.

12 dice, expect 2 successes. Reroll 10 dice, expect 1 2/3 successes. 2/3 success doesn't cut it 1/3 of the time, so another reroll. 3 karma pool to get 4 successes.

Usually I have other things I want to save my karma pool for, especially mid-run if I need to drop and re-cast.
Cain
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
By canon, it is resisted by anyone and everyone it would be used against.

So instead of aiming at the target, aim at his clothes. Inanimate nonmagical objects don't get a resistance test; and I've yet to see anyone with magical focus underoos.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
So instead of aiming at the target, aim at his clothes. Inanimate nonmagical objects don't get a resistance test; and I've yet to see anyone with magical focus underoos.

I've yet to see a GM let that slide. Same with levitate. Trying to overcome limitations of spells with mind games doesn't work in my game. The rule of thumb for me is if invisibility would cover it, the person can resist for it (in the cases of magicians skirting the rules).
mfb
well, that's why you cast it in the comfort of your home, and toss it into a sustaining focus. hell, if you're not doing that, your -2 TN is going to be cancelled out by the +2 TN for sustaining.
Da9iel
But new targets still get to resist, don't they? Don't you need to write down the roll for all sustained/quickened spells like that?
Herald of Verjigorm
Since the TN for the spell doesn't change, you only need the success count when someone tries to resist. A sustained spell targeted like stunball would need each and every number of the test recorded.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (tisoz)
With 12 dice aren't you looking at a reroll or 2 to get four successes? So anytime you need to drop and recast it, you are running through your karma pool.

I think 4 successes on 12 dice would take a lot.

12 dice, expect 2 successes. Reroll 10 dice, expect 1 2/3 successes. 2/3 success doesn't cut it 1/3 of the time, so another reroll. 3 karma pool to get 4 successes.

Usually I have other things I want to save my karma pool for, especially mid-run if I need to drop and re-cast.

First, you shouldn't confuse the law of averages with what's accomplishable. Second, it's not that hard to recast the spell. It has an easy Drain Code and if you're noticing you're not getting the type of a response that you're used to from it, break the spell and recast it into your focus until you do. Two or three shots with max dice should get it done.
tisoz
I wish I remembered how to do probabilities. Here's a shot at it though.

Assuming Sorcery 6, Spell Pool 6, Willpower 6.

Probability of rolling 4 6s with 12 dice. Need to roll a 6 with 3 dice, four times in a row. Rolling 3 dice, should get a 6 every other roll. (1/2) * (1/2) * (1/2) * (1/2) = 1/16. 16 complex actions is less than a minute, maybe less than 30 seconds.

To resist drain, need not roll 1s on 3 of 6 dice. Would be unfortunate enough to roll a 1 on 2 dice 3 times in a row. (1/3) * (1/3) * (1/3) = 1/27. So expect to take drain more than every other time you succeed in rolling 4 6s.

I have no idea if these calculations are correct. They make sense to me. If someone who knows how to figure probabilities wants to note the formula, I would be quite pleased.
Ol' Scratch
Here's an example of what I mean. I'm using Irony's Web Dice 'cause I'm too lazy to roll a ton right now.

Roll 1: 4, 2, 6, 4, 4, 1, 6, 1, 3, 2, 2, 2 = 37.
Roll 2: 3, 2, 3, 2, 2, 5, 5, 3, 6, 2, 4, 6 = 43.
Roll 3: 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 1, 3, 1, 6, 4, 6, 6 = 55.
Roll 4: 6, 6, 3, 1, 3, 4, 2, 1, 5, 1, 1, 1 = 34.
Roll 5: 6, 6, 5, 6, 2, 4, 6, 4, 1, 5, 6, 6 = 57.

Rolls 3 and 5 both gave four or more successes. That's nearly half of the 12d6 rolls. It's not hard. Averages and probabilities are nice for some things, but as any gambler (as opposed to casino) knows, you shouldn't rely on them to be accurate. They're only useful when you're rolling millions of times over and over and over again, not for a handful of rolls. Every time you roll that die, there's a one in six chance you're going to get any number; it doesn't matter if you just rolled a 6 20 times in a row, that next roll still has a 1-in-6 chance of hitting 6.
tisoz
I understand what you mean. I can flip a coin 5 times and get 5 tails. It doesn't mean it will ever happen again.

That's why I was hoping someone could post the probability and expected outcomes.
RedmondLarry
(FYI, tisoz, it will happen again. Trust me on this.)
Cain
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
QUOTE
So instead of aiming at the target, aim at his clothes. Inanimate nonmagical objects don't get a resistance test; and I've yet to see anyone with magical focus underoos.

I've yet to see a GM let that slide. Same with levitate. Trying to overcome limitations of spells with mind games doesn't work in my game. The rule of thumb for me is if invisibility would cover it, the person can resist for it (in the cases of magicians skirting the rules).

Oh, I grant that there'd be a question as to rather or not a called-shot penalty would be needed at this point; but the general idea is pretty safe. Essentially, Doc and others are "letting it slide" by skipping the target's resistance test, which amounts to the same thing.
ES_Riddle
QUOTE (tisoz)
To resist drain, need not roll 1s on 3 of 6 dice. Would be unfortunate enough to roll a 1 on 2 dice 3 times in a row. (1/3) * (1/3) * (1/3) = 1/27. So expect to take drain more than every other time you succeed in rolling 4 6s.

I don't know a shorthand way of doing it, but here goes.

Chances of rolling 2 or fewer ones is

(1 way to roll 0 ones+6*(5)^5 ways to roll 1 one+15*(5)^4 ways to roll 2 ones)/(6^6 total rolls possible)

Comes out to about a 60% chance of not taking drain. If you put a spell pool die or two into resisting drain instead of casting, you will dramatically increase your chances of shrugging it off.

With 8 dice resisting, you need to roll 4 or fewer ones.

(1+8*5^7+28*5^6+56*5^5+70*5^4)/(6^cool.gif=.763

I don't know if changing your chances from 3 in 5 to 3 in 4 is worth it, though, since you'll be drawing spell pool dice off of your casting. There must be some optimal number of dice to put in each, but I don't know what it is. Your best bet is to just get a trauma damper so you only have to stage it down once or have an improve willpower sustaining focus.
Edward
Of cause with the spell you can combine it with ether smart goggles (including version 2) to get an additional -1 TN (and +2TN for called shots) or a optical scope and laser sight for long range work (as my current PC uses it)

If your pre casting the spell at home into a sustaining focus use max spell pool for the casting. You will recover from the light stun quickly enough. If you have more than 6 spell pool (albino gnomes or initiates) put the rest in drain resistance.

We have not been rolling resistance tests for the targets. I donít know if that is a house rule or a mistake on the part of my GM (KremlinKOA on these boards) but I didnít think it was necessary. It doesnít make much since for a spell that is supposed to augment your skill to be dependant on the stubbornness of your targets.

Edward
Thistledown
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 17 2004, 05:18 PM)
By canon, it is resisted by anyone and everyone it would be used against.

So instead of aiming at the target, aim at his clothes. Inanimate nonmagical objects don't get a resistance test; and I've yet to see anyone with magical focus underoos.

Doesn't work. Targeting what somebody has with them is the same as targeting them. If you get them as soon as they put it on, maybe, but once they've been wearing it for a while, it gets the same magic stuff as their own aura.

Assensing, Pg 171BBB
QUOTE
Non-magical objects have no auras, but pick up impressions from being in contact with living auras.


I remember seing more on that somewhere, but can't find it right now.

Also, most detection spells, including inhanced aim, are mana based, which wouldn't work on clothing anyways.

Spells, Type, Pg 178BBB
QUOTE
Physical spells affect the physical properties of a target.  Only physical spells affect non-living objects.

Mana spells affect mental, spiritual or magical things, such as spirits, emotions, thoughts, life force and so forth.  Only mana spells affect astral forms (see The Astral Plane, p 171).


Demosthenes
I've never played Enhance Aim as requiring a resistance test...

I interpret Enhance Aim as giving you a better sense of where you're pointing your weapon relative to what you're looking at - hence, it doesn't need to overcome any kind of resistance from whatever you are aiming at.

If Enhance Aim requires a resistance test, does a spell that grants you lowlight vision require a resistance test? And if not, what is the difference between the two?

Is there a canon interpretation of this that isn't hideously ambiguous?
Fortune
Canon states that Detection Spells are resisted unless otherwise specified in the individual spell's description (like in Combat Senses). No such exception is made in the description for Enhanced Aim.


... but there should be. biggrin.gif
JaronK
Well, if Clairvoyance allows a resistance test, why not Enhanced Aim?

JaronK
Rev
What about combat sense? heh.
Fortune
Combat Sense is an exception, as listed in its description.
Demosthenes
I haven't had the time to look at the precise text yet...but by the sound of it this is just a little bit ambiguous - WHAT exactly resists a detection spell?
The subject (if it chooses to), and all possible targets of the spell, right? So, everything that is directly affected by the spell.

Enhance Aim, Lowlight Vision, and similar spells, sound to me like spells that affect only the subject, even though they allow the subject to have an effect upon multiple other "targets".

If canon specifically states "Detection spells are resisted unless otherwise specified in the spell's description", does that mean that spells that are "beneficial" to the subject are also resisted? Does canon specifically state who resists a spell (I believe this would be defined as the target or subject of the spell)?

If the target or subject of the spell is the only person who resists it, then Enhance Aim and similar spells do not allow a resistance test to everyone the subject of the spell aims at - they are not area effect detections that affect all possible targets within the range of the spell, but "meta-sensory" spells (to use an SR2 term), that affect only the subject.

I'm not claiming that this is the case...only that, based on what I've heard and read so far, it seems to be a valid argument.
spotlite
Slight detour - but would a spell which simulated the additional bonuses of a SL2 be feasible? I'm not talking about it having the variable to hit modifier that the normal spell has, I was thinking specifically about just the indirect fire/called shot bonus.
Fortune
The Subject is the person that the Detection Spell is cast on. The Subject of a Detection Spell must be willing, and the Range is usually Touch, with an addendum (as listed in the MitS chart). The only exception to this Range addendum (T/either A or D), is the Combat Sense spell, which is Touch.

Detection Spells can be learned with the Caster Only option, which grants a decrease in the Drain Code.

The Target of a Detection Spell is defined as any person or object in the Area of Effect (Magic x Force) that mathches the description of the specific Detection Spell. Each Target resists the Detection Spell in the way defined under the specific spell (usually Willpower).

Detection Spells can be learned with the Extended option, which increases the Range (Magic x Force x 10), while raising the Drain Code.

As a note, more than one option can be chosen when learning Detection Spells.
Demosthenes
Right.
In that case, does any person or object within Force*Magic of the subject of an Enhance Aim spell match any element of the spell description (since I don't have the description to hand)?

(Left the relevant half of my SR books at my friend's house last weekend when I ran a game)
RedmondLarry
No, Demosthenes, as Enhance Aim is not an area spell. It's a directed sense, as is Clairvoyance.
Fortune
Hence you could indeed use Enhance Aim to target anything within range, living or inanimate.

Both Area Spells and Directed Spells are resisted by any appropriate Target as descibed in the spell. Since inanimate objects do not get Resistance tests, this rule does not apply to them.
Demosthenes
[sarcasm]What a marvellous way to make combat faster, simpler, and more effective...[/sarcasm]

I shall have to look at all of these things again before I run the game again tomorrow night. I have the feeling I shall be houseruling quite a few detection spells...or at least having a careful look at the text.
Thanks for the clarifications.
Fortune
The easiest, and in my opinion most logical House Rule would be to just say that Directed Sense spells are not resisted. smile.gif
zod
hmm .. i'm just new here .. but here's my take on this .. i think resist rolls only occur during the casting of a spell am i correct .. not after it has been casted .. and only if it has a direct effect on the affected party .. and enhanced aim or any other personal spells affect the caster .. or the target of such spells .. i don't know anyone who would refuse enhanced aim .. heheh .. but really the bonus is to the target .. and has no effect at all on the one he's going to shoot .. so he does not get to resist ..
spin.gif
Fortune
Resistance rolls occur when the spell is cast, and whenever an appropriate Target enters the Area of Effect while it is being sustained.
Edward
Some spells (such as detect enemies) should have a resistance roll and it should be applied to targets entering the aria after casting. Otherwise a poorly cast detect enemies (force 1, 1 success) cast in the morning would provide you with total protection from anybody that was not within range when you cast your spell (the other interpretation would be that at any force and any successes it only alerts you to enemyís within the aria at time of casting witch would make it an instantaneous spell)

Edward
Fortune
I agree. Detect Enemies falls under the Area Spells category, as opposed to the Directed Sense category, so would still be resisted as normal under my proposed House Rule.
lorthazar
you guys are slightly mixing up the Target of the the spell and the Target of the gun. Yes, any mage can resist his own enhanced aim, or any manphobe can resist an enhance aim spell from a team mate. However when Mage A under the influence of Enhanced Aim is pointing a gun at Target A, Target A does not get to resist the spell becuiase it does not affect him. It only effects Mage A, making him shoot better.
Ol' Scratch
No, you're the one making the mistake. The subject of the spell is the person the spell is cast upon. The target is anyone you're aiming at with the spell. Normally the subject is the target with most spells, but Detection and Illusion spells have numerous examples where they're not the same.
lorthazar
Well pardon me for trying to bring the light of reason to the discussion. After all it was obviousl what the intent of the spell was. If it could be resisted it would list which attribute would be used to resist it, but it doesn't. In fact, like Combat Sense, all that is listed in Target number is 6, not 6®. The effect is completely localized to the person the spell was laid upon. Sure this allows him to hit other people better, but that point is moot. Do we say that the Armor spell is resistable by the people that hit you, that Combat Sense is resistable by the people whose bullets you are dodging, that Cat's Eye is resistable by people in that dark room you are looking in, that Increased Reflexes can be decrease by people who are slower than you. No we don't. Sure invisibility can be detected becuase you are making the other person ignore you. Mind probe should be resisting as it is a battle of wills. Detect thoughts can be resisted by method acting.
Ol' Scratch
You were the one telling us that we were mistaking how the spell works. I was simply correcting your mistake on the matter.

Note that I'm one of the people who house rule it so that there is no resistance test. But that doesn't change the fact about the spell as written.
BitBasher
Erm Lothazar, that's all well and good if it didn;t say "All detecteion spells are resisted unless explicitly stated otherwise". So it's comparison to armor and combat sense is totally invalid.
lorthazar
The spell is written just fine, it's just under the wrong catagory.
Fortune
No, it's not in the wrong category. The other Directed Sense Detection Spells should act as Combat Sense does in regards to there being no resistance tests in sight. As it stands though, Cimbat Sense is the only non-Area Detection Spell that works properly.

Spells like Clairvoyance should not be resisted, but spells like Detect Enemies always should.
JaronK
Ugh, I was playing around with a Tir Ghost sniper character, and wanting to make him a Magician's Way adept with Enhanced Aim, but I just realized that even the Extended version will only give him a range of 200 meters with enhanced aim, which just doesn't cut it for a sniper rifle. *sigh*

But yes, by canon, Detection spells are all resisted by whoever you try to look at them with, including enhanced aim.

JaronK
Fortune
How do you figure?

Magic x Force x 10 (for extended) = 360 meter assuming a Force and Magic of 6.

Initiate and take the Force higher as well as raise your Magic Attribute and watch the range climb.

[edit] D'oh! Magician Adept has a lower effective Magic Attribute for spellcasting. The point still stands though ... it can go up. smile.gif
ES_Riddle
Magic 6 isn't the default assumption for a phys mage. He probably has magic 4/force 5 or vice versa.
JaronK
Magic rating 5 for purposes of casting, Enhanced Aim 4. But even after initiating a few times, and buring power points on spells instead of things I really need (like improved reflexes), and getting to magic rating 8, with Force 6 Enhanced Aim, we're looking at 480 meters... when the range on my sniper rifle is 1000 meters, and the range on a laser designator (he's based of starcraft ghosts) is 5000 meters.

The idea was to spend a LOT of magical ability to get the effects of a long range scope and smartlink combo... basically, take Visual Magnification 3 with enhanced aim force 4+, and have a base 2 to hit at extream range. Doesn't work though, because of the limits on the range of detection spells. Oh well. Maybe I can call it "Really extended enhanced aim", multiply distance times 100, and drain code +2, getting 2000 meters to start. That wouldn't be too bad.

JaronK
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