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Kagetenshi
You do realize that they got Al Capone for tax evasion, right? Not for, say, the St. Valentine's Day Massacre (for which no one has been charged) or any of the many other violent acts that are reasonably believed to have been his doing?

~J
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Would it help if you only used lead non-jacketed rounds?

Hmm...

<ponders bone or frozen meat firearm ammunition>


-karma
Austere Emancipator
He didn't deter the police from investigating those crimes through killing every cop, though, did he? He did kill (or had killed) a lot of witnesses, though, I admit that. And he killed(/had killed) a number of policemen, but I'd say that had very little to do with the investigation of said crimes. Instead the SOPs of organized crime proved effective -- lack of clues, covering the tracks, obfuscating any connection to the guys in charge, and especially bribery.

(I'm definitely no expert on Al Capone, though, so I could be wrong. I can always fall back on the fact that the US in the 1910s-20s was not really up to my current standards of "civilized western country".)
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (KarmaInferno)
<ponders bone or frozen meat firearm ammunition>
If you're just going for the cool factor, may I suggest using bullets made of cloned muscle tissue from the target him/her/itself. If not, you might as well you yourself some metallic, thoroughly fragmenting bullets. That way you can accurately and effectively engage targets more than a few meters away, as well as targets that wear thick leather clothing.
Kagetenshi
You're right, he didn't kill every cop. I was more referring to the intimidation of witnesses, though looking back, I said it atrociously badly.

Uncivilized though it may be, Prohibition-era US seems like the best guide for the 2060s to me. At least for North America.

~J
Fortune
Interesting. I never looked at it from that angle. Hmmm ...

Seems somewhat fitting on the surface, but I'll reserve further comment until I have a chance to think about it more.
Fresno Bob
QUOTE
By the same token, if you regularly kill people assigned to take you down, the individuals actually doing the looking are going to become rather demotivated.


That doesn't work! Haven't you played Grand Theft Auto? You kill someone and then BAM, a cop is on you. Kill that cop and BAM, more cops. Kill those cops and they sic the helicopter on you. Shoot that helicopter down, and BAM- SWAT team. Waste the SWAT team...and I forget what happens at 5 stars, but soon enough, you're dealing with soldiers and Tanks and crap.
Voran
Wow, a forget when it was but a search may still show it about a half year or so back. From discussion with people on this board, we came up with the idea of a bleach gas bomb, kinda like those bug bombs you zap your house with. Should degrade any decent DNA type evidence right?

Also, how much would the Clean Metabolism bioware upgrade affect the type of bodily evidence you leave behind? Would it prevent fingerprints, etc?
Voran
QUOTE (Voorhees)
QUOTE
By the same token, if you regularly kill people assigned to take you down, the individuals actually doing the looking are going to become rather demotivated.


That doesn't work! Haven't you played Grand Theft Auto? You kill someone and then BAM, a cop is on you. Kill that cop and BAM, more cops. Kill those cops and they sic the helicopter on you. Shoot that helicopter down, and BAM- SWAT team. Waste the SWAT team...and I forget what happens at 5 stars, but soon enough, you're dealing with soldiers and Tanks and crap.

Bah, then you just have to run over a bribe icon, or change your clothes or if the cops are right behind you? Duck into a pay-and-spray and even if the army is right outside, they won't recognize you!

smile.gif
toturi
Yeah, but if you managed to waste the army... Just like every other game that tries to enforce law and order, there's always a breakpoint.

Reminds me of Baldur's Gate 2, lousy pesky mage police, got no(much) loot.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (toturi)
Reminds me of Baldur's Gate 2, lousy pesky mage police, got no(much) loot.

Try than in a pen & paper Forgotten Realms game with a sane DM, though. In a city where metric tonnes of gold are small change, you won't stand a beep'ing chance unless the party happens to have a CR around 30.
toturi
Huh? I wouldn't be caught dead playing in a pnp DnD game. However, nothing short of a archdevil or a prismatic dragon is going to have a ghost of a chance to kill my NWN PC (if it rolls natural 20s and my PC rolls 1s).

By the way, never met a sane DM, ever.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (toturi)
NWN PC

Level 40 supermegamunched combo with all-epic artifact gear collected from fan-created completely unbalanced mods, as 99% of NWN PCs these days it seems?

You either remember your Epic monster stats a bit poorly or haven't really checked them against each other. For example, here are a few stats on an average Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon:
CR 66, 2613hp, AC 106, Atk +101/+96/+96/+96/+96, Dam 8d6+31/4d8+15/4d8+15/4d6+15/4d6+15, FRW +68/+41/+68, SR 86, DR 60/+15, Caster Level 38th. And then you add the 20 Feats, most of which Epic, and other misc crap.
Compared to this motherfucker, Archdevils are complete wimps. A Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon could fuck up all the Archdevils at the same time without breaking a sweat. Hell, a GWPD could slay most gods in the FR setting outside of their domains, and many of the smaller ones in their domains.

Still, my favorite critter in the game is Juggernaut of 3rd Ed D&D, the Devastation Beetle. Gotta love that 25d10+24 bite damage, just because of the amount of dice.

[Edit]There's just no way a player can outmunch the DM in a pen and paper DD3E game. Paragon Pseudonatural Tauric Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon/Hecatoncheires. love.gif

And, uhh, sorry about the total off-topicness.[/Edit]
toturi
Is that all? That is going to do f**k all. Let's see here... 100% Immunity Piercing/Bludgeoning/Slashing/Fire/Cold/Sonic/Magic/Acid/Positive/Negative/Divine/anything-else damage. So what are you gonna do Mr GWPD?

biggrin.gif
Ol' Scratch
Pull out a Greater God and have him use his ability to alter reality to turn you into a defenseless slug, then step on you until you're dead, Dead, DEAD?
Austere Emancipator
I'm gonna laugh at you while you can't harm me and eventually just Autokill you (through Vorpal effects or, if you're immune to those, or Epic magic).

Or what Doctor Funkenstein said.
Fresno Bob
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
There's just no way a player can outmunch the DM in a pen and paper DD3E game. Paragon Pseudonatural Tauric Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon/Hecatoncheires


Also the DM can just blatantly cheat and boost stats and HP to whatever the hell he sees fit.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Voorhees)
Also the DM can just blatantly cheat and boost stats and HP to whatever the hell he sees fit.

Yeah, but that's hardly necessary. You can create opponents of unlimited (literally) power without cheating a single bit.

In fact, nevermind the Polymorph-To-Slug-And-Crush-Dead thing, just make him your permanent, unresisting Thrall. Again, compeltely by the rules with a bit of Permanent Contingency and the Epic spell Enslave. There are too many spells which would give the GWPD a 95% chance of instakilling the character to make a simple kill very entertaining.
toturi
Not if you have the "DM owes me big time" spell. Always make sure the DM owes you a very big favour or a lot of money. Let me rephrase my previous assertion: Immune to Anything-the-DM-can-do-if-you-don't-want-it-to-happen.

Now tell me again what are you gonna do?
Austere Emancipator
Kick you from my gaming group?
toturi
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Kick you from my gaming group?

Sorry Immune to that too.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (toturi)
Sorry Immune to that too.

I think maybe a break from RPGs might be healthy for you.
Starfurie
Whoa, my topic drift meter needle is pegged. Let's rope this back.

Advice for GnuBs:

Form-fitting body armor is a fashion must.

The best gun in the world is the one in your hands when you need a gun.

Hey, you! Yea, you, the chromed minotaur with the day-glo afro and tatts. Does the word inconspicuous hold any meaning for you?

Mr. Johnson will tell you anything to get you to take his run. If he's desperate enough, he might even tell you the truth.

Never, ever, ever deal with a dragon (if you can manage this, please tell me how).

The only people you can trust are those that have more to lose than you.

If you don't know how to use is, why are you carrying it?

Magic is the great equalizer, if you ain't got it, you ain't equal.

Runners die in bed all the time. The ones that don't learn to look for bombs.

All runs are (or at least should be) based on deception. The trick is to remember to deceive the opposition, not yourselves.

Shoot the mage first, second, and third (and theirs, not yours.)

Always make sure that you know the limits of extraterritoritality. Always remember bullets don't know that limit.

Once you pull the pin, Grenade-san is no longer your friend.

TAFN
SimpleRunner
On the subject that started all of this, Barrels, firing pins etc...

Ares Predators are so cheap and the street index even cheaper why bother buying barrels or other parts. Its just a tool you use. How you dispose of the material be it a gun or cell phone is what really counts. Nice ways of disposing of guns is leave them in the barrens where some other random punk could find it and take the rap for it, have a Mage cast Wreck or similar spell on it or donate it to your local Gunsmith "the one you get your special items custom made from"!
Caine Hazen
1) if you happen to call on Lofwyr's minions after they have made you an offer...even full well knowing as much info on Lofwyr as you can, you get what you deserve. Especially if your own teammates kill you.

2) If 2 psycotic muscle characters in your group decide it would be fun to see who can build up the biggest media personaloty body count, get rid of them. Preferably violently and messly

3) If ever are blocked by an objective by trip mines, proximity mines or other such boomboom, remember that your dead teammate is no longer using his body and that a good troll should be able to lob it onto the mines. He won't mind, he's still being a team player.
KarmaInferno
If you're a drone rigger, give all your team members FOF transponders so the drones don't target them.

Don't tell your friends that the transponders contain remotely detonated high explosive. Y'know. just in case.

And if nothing else you can always switch the "friend" tags to "foe"

biggrin.gif


-karma
DocMortand
QUOTE (Caine Hazen)
3) If ever are blocked by an objective by trip mines, proximity mines or other such boomboom, remember that your dead teammate is no longer using his body and that a good troll should be able to lob it onto the mines. He won't mind, he's still being a team player.

So in other words, strap that dead teammate to your front bumper and use him to clear your way through crowds without damaging the paintjob!
lodestar
Misdirection is key. Always give the cops or sec boys something else to think about. In most cases they won't look for something small gone if there's something obvious gone - at the very least it might buy you some time.

Use stolen vehicles - especially if you're the rigger, your own precious babies are too expensive and valuable to waste on some efforts. Your own toys should really only be used for recon and other non in the line of fire uses. If necessary, spray paint and a stolen licence plate is a quick way to elude some persuers for a quick bit.

Non lethal means are often more cost effective than lethal ones. Your fist, or a baton is a quick way to disable someone, and don't cost nothing. Remember each bullet you use is one that goes against your profit margin at the end.

If in doubt wreck everything, and fire purges all. Want it tough t for the cops to find evidence? Burn it. Incediary devices are easy to make from common household items. Just be careful you don't burn yourself. At the very least the cops are going to have to wait until the FD cools it all down.

Always have a back up plan, a drek hits the fan plan. Have a cover story, an alibi and an escape route. At least have someone you can blame.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Take twice as much ammo as you think you're going to need. Plan to do it without guns if possible, but have them ready in case.

Remember everythings legal in the shadows as long as you don't get caught.wink.gif
Vera53
Make sure that the escape plan is not the same route from where you first entered the security site. Also have more than one escape plan/exit route, since they can and often do become blocked. Plus if you have to re-enter the security site for some reason you have another way to escape that might not have already been compromised from a previous run.

Vera53
toturi
Know yourself and know your enemy; in 100 runs, you will be successful 100 times.

- Ancient 6th world proverb

Have an edge, use that edge, abuse that edge, don't lose that edge.
Fix-it
Anyone know any chemicals known to produce temporary amnesia???

could be usefull.
Sahandrian
Laes causes permanent memory loss, erasing up to 12 hours of recent experience. But it has that nuyen.gif 1000 per dose price tag and 21/21d availability...

Maybe if you got some of the stuff, you could use the Chemistry skill to alter it to a temporary form...
Fix-it
Or if you have a kind GM, you could use a Chemistry knowledge skill to synthesize some of it yourself.

meh... Easier just to get a mage to use an alter memory spell.
Sahandrian
I thought that had some pretty severe restrictions on it. Things like only working on five-second intervals or something.
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE
But here’s the thing, most Shadowrunners are SINless, meaning just having a firearm makes you guilty. The police don’t have to prove anything to a court because the SINless don’t have any rights.
This has to be the most persistent false piece of info about SR that I can remember. Sinless DO have rights, they are technically "probationary citizens". They just have lesser rights that someone with a SIN, somewhat like a resident alien.

to add ot that, how do the police know someone has or doesn't have a SIN until they've spoken to them.They can't just look at someone and know.

Mercer
I thought thats what the barcodes on the backs of the heads were for...

Another thing you should shy away from is having a lot of bunnies molded out of C-12 with blinking red detonators for eyes. It unsettles the non-demolitionally minded.

And it Reminds me of the time Homer was childproofing the wall sockets by drawing bunny faces on them.
Marge: But Maggie's not afraid of bunnies.
Homer: She will be.
Garland
If one is currently involved in illegal activity, one MUST NOT give an officer of the law one's real ID.

True story.

ES_Riddle
[offtopic]
QUOTE (John Campbell)
Orks and trolls are just big ugly people, and killing them is murder. Similarly, that dark-skinned elf is just a black guy with pointy ears, not a chaotic evil worshipper of the spider queen.


They're Neutral Evil now sarcastic.gif One of the dumbest minor changes ever[/offtopic]

Back on topic-

Mages-
don't forget to erase your astral signature.
know clean (blood)
draco aardvark
QUOTE (ES_Riddle)
Mages-
don't forget to erase your astral signature.
know clean (blood)

Steralize covers blood and lots of other stuff
Puck Wildhorse, M.D.
Wow, I wander away for a week and this topic has covered a lot of ground. Some generic advice is stay away from loonies and players who over specialize their characters. Also, its usually best to start out using minimal force and work your way upwards (i.e., intimidate a guy rather than fight him; beat a guy up rather than cut him; knife a guy rather than shoot him; use a small, silent weapon rather than a big, noisy one; use a noisy weapon rather than a grenade; use a grenade rather than a satchel charge; etc.) Leave a guy beat up and unconscious and not too many heads will turn. Leave a building on fire and a crowd will gather. Of course if the bad guys go straight to the heavy ordinance, you should probably do the same or run.

As an in game example, one guy in my group brought in an adept who was ambidextrous, had edged weapons 5 (katana 7), and the adept power that adds dice to his katana skill. With two katanas, he rolled something like 15 dice before using any combat pool. I couldn’t tell you what other skills he had, just that he was never seen to do anything useful except fight.

In one fight, he was tagging along with the Face to keep her safe. Our team was in Calgary, Canada and we needed some local knowledge, so the Face and the Swordsman drive our one vehicle to a bar to talk to a local fixer. She leaves the kimono wearing swordsman in the car outside. There’s no one in the bar except the fixer and two of his goons. She has her meeting and the fixer decides to grab her (not sure why, except the Face has a charisma of 10 and likes to give a lot of come hither stares). The Face screams and the swordsman walks in, draws his swords and attacks. The GM plays along and has two guys attack the swordsman in melee combat, one unarmed and one with a club, I think.

The scene becomes Kill Bill vol. 1 with arms chopped off and big pools of blood and gore everywhere. With the two henchmen down, the swordsman advances on the last guy, who was holding the Face. He pushes the Face aside, pulls a shotgun from under his coat and fires from point blank, doing a serious wound. The swordsman survives and kills the last guy. Now, we have a Swordsman in a blood soaked kimono with a serious chest wound. The bar is covered in blood, some of which belongs to the Swordsman. So the Face and the Swordsman hop in the car and head back to the hotel where the rest of us are hanging out.

First lesson from above: Specialists rule in their arena but can easily be faced with a situation they can’t handle. Swords aren’t very useful in a gun fight. So far as I know, the Swordsman didn’t even have a gun.

Second lesson from above: Start with intimidation. The swordsman could have easily tried to stare the bad guys down or threaten them with serious harm. Something like, “Let her go or I’ll skin you, eat you and use your shin bone as a pencil box!” may have worked.

Third lesson from above: It’s always a good idea to have several vehicles, even when traveling. None of the rest of the team could go to their aid because they had the only car.

Fourth lesson from above: A mage with the sterilize spell can get you out of a jam in a hurry.

To finish the story, my character and the mage took the car and headed back to the bar. I dropped the mage off about 200 yards from the bar (the bar was on a rural road and it would have looked suspicious if I stopped right at the bar). There were a few police cars outside the bar and a couple of policemen waiting for the CSI types. The mage used a mask spell to make her look like a crime scene photographer and she talked her way inside. Once in there, she cast sterilize and managed to get into the back room where the VCR was located for the bar’s security camera. She grabbed the tape (or crystal or whatever) and split before the real crime scene investigators showed up. As a result, we were able to continue operating for several more days without Knight Errant breathing down our necks.
kryton
I've always found it kind of funny how few of my players take the precaution to wear a mask. It's quick and easy and takes care of all those nasty security camera's. I love flashing a picture of the players on the evening news......Actually I've always wanted to go into a K-mart and buy a shotgun, box ammo, and a ski mask.....Although I don't think my wife would find it that funny when she has to come up with bail money......If only I was 18 and stupid again.

Remember if ski masks are good enough for British Hooligans then they're good enough for your characters.
Voran
QUOTE (Fix-it)
Anyone know any chemicals known to produce temporary amnesia???

could be usefull.

Alcohol? smile.gif
Voran
Other tips. Assume you're going to get hit by some sort of chemical concoction. Whether its riot foam, neurostun, whatever. Take precautions as possible.

Don't forget to look directly above you from time to time.

In the day and age of 2064, maybe investing in colorchanging hair is a good idea. Buying hair that can be preorganized into different styles is also useful.

Never use anything you're desperately afraid of losing. Signature weapons and customized super-armors are nice, but it'll suck all the more when you have to ditch it. And at some point, you probably will.

Usually it's better to be a quiet badass, than a loud jackass.

You're going to need a knife eventually.

Be careful the girl you're feeling up isn't some mafia don's daughter.



lorthazar
if you are doing proper leg work you can sometimes find someone who is pulling a run against the same corp you are. This can make a very useful distraction.

Capsule rounds loaded with Hyper are a good thing

Same goes for MAO

Every gunbunny should own an Armtech MGL-6, any grenade launcher you can conceal is a good thing. And Anit Bullet barrier do not stop grenades.

Stealth is great but remember that when the shooting does starts you might wish you had gotten a gasvent for you SMG instead of a suppressor.

Don't yell "reload" when you paid good money for that radio/transducer combo.

Make friends with at least one gang. It will save your life later.

Killing LS is a bad thing. Tying them naked to a carousel in a compromising postion, however discredits them completely. (Saw it in Men at Work)

If one of the enemy Physads is a woman, she can shred trolls with her pinky.

Physads who underestimate Samurai always wind up dead.

Yes, a Ranger-X Bow in the hands of a troll counts as a sniper weapon.

Ask not what your fixer can do for you, but what you can do for your fixer.
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