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Snow_Fox
I thought of this today, most runners have holster for their hand guns, and a few rifles break down to cases, but do you give any htought to packing smgs and assault rifles or do you just toss 'em in the trunk of your car between runs? Rifle rack in the truck?

How do you store guns at home? toss them in a closet or under a pillow?
Sandoval Smith
Easily found secret compartment in the bedroom closet for the guns you and ammo you can own with a permit.

Hard to find secret compartment behind the toilet for all the really special goodies that you don't want your friends from LS playing with if they drop by unexpectedly.
Wounded Ronin
I saw an episode of COPS where a car that is stopped happens to have gang members and an AK in it. The AK was funny because it had little kindergarten stars stuck on it.

So the moral is put your assault rifles in a car and put stickers on them.
Mercer
There was a thing in Maxim or GQ a few years ago about an art exhibit where the artist had bought replica weapons and painted them in bizarre ways: Hot pink, zebra stripes, glitter paint, and so on. I cut it out because it was too perfect as an SR graphic.

As for moving guns, I've always shied away from the secret compartments and cut-out foam Fendi cases, and so on. Come to think of it, I think I have something on this in my character history which if I dig for it... (hours of searching later)...

QUOTE (Mercer Character History 3.1)
It took me a week to find a place, and a day to move; things like that are simple when everything you own can fit into two duffle bags.  I have clothes, a couple of books, a few OC’s, and two suitcases of pistols and weapons that I’m not sure I should hang onto but I'm scared to throwaway—its always nice to have an extra, untraceable, disposable firearm laying around.  The only problem with a suitcase full of guns is its heavy as hell.  I’ve often thought of getting one of those high-speed no-shit tactical gun cases with the cut foam packing to pistols fit neatly inside, but what’s the point?  It’s hard to look like anything but a professional criminal lugging one of those things around.  And what if you have to ditch it?  You’re out the guns, but you’re also out the eight-hundred bucks for the case.  Most of the guns I’ve got I’ve come by honestly.  I figure if someone can’t hang onto their gun it might as well be mine, along with whatever they have in their wallet depending on how much time I have.  These days I just throw the old handguns in a couple of old suitcases, duct tape them in place, fill both the cases with socks and old t-shirts and go.
Shrapnel
I kinda like your style, Mercer. Keep it simple. Duffel bags, backpacks, suitcases, briefcases, etc... Gun safes are kinda hard to pack in a hurry...

I don't know if it's off topic, but how many of you actually plan out in detail where you CARRY all of your different weapons. Types and locations of holsters, spare mags, etc...

Anybody ever have to try to explain to players why the character trying to pack heavy ordnance, such as HMGs or Assault Cannons, on bikes tend to get so much attention? Just curious...
Nikoli
Was always partial to Leon's tacklebox in The Professional
draco aardvark
Most of my characters don't have many guns (if any). So I keep 'em on me at almost all times. Pistols and many SMG's are easy enough to conceal. I always figure that if LoneStar is raiding my apartment, it will not matter - I'm either in custody or never going back there, so any guns are hidden somewhere stupid, like under the bed, or in a sock drawer.

Now one interesting way of concealing illegal substances was demonstrated by an NPC of mine (made with standard character generation rules!). He worked at the post office, and lived in a bunker out in the woods. Within said bunker were quite a few poor-looking sculptures (replica of David, etc) ... 5 cubic meters of sculptures... nice C4 sculptures all riged up with wires running under the carpet. C'mon LoneStar, bring in the bomb squad, I dare you!
Arethusa
QUOTE (Shrapnel @ Nov 28 2004, 03:12 AM)
I don't know if it's off topic, but how many of you actually plan out in detail where you CARRY all of your different weapons.  Types and locations of holsters, spare mags, etc...

Anybody ever have to try to explain to players why the character trying to pack heavy ordnance, such as HMGs or Assault Cannons, on bikes tend to get so much attention?  Just curious...

I keep track of everything in detail. If I can't believe it, there isn't much point. Tend to go with a pair of compact pistols on both sides of the small of my back for everyday wear in rougher areas or something simple and potent for normal walking around. Couple spare pistols stowed in concealed compartments on a bike or in the car (accessible from driver's seat) as well. Don't tend to pack heavier ordinance, but SMGs and assault rifles get packed in hard metal cases in the trunk. Nothing terribly overt, but not bothering to make it look like a deigner leather suitcase, either. If someone's poking around in my trunk, chances are he's going in it next.
Shrapnel
I agree with planning everything out in detail. Shoulder, hip, and ankle holster all have different advantages and disadvantages.

For instance, in my opinion, you don't get any bonuses for a lined coat with an ankle holster. Or, what happens to your shoulder holster when you take your armor jacket off?

Now, what about ammo? A person can only carry so much ammo on them at a time. With a decent tac-vest, a person can carry 6-12 loaded rifle mags at one time, as well as 3-6 pistol mags, and sometimes a pistol. Gets pretty bulky, though, and can be hard to hide, even under a jacket. Now when it comes to hiding an assault rifle under a jacket, I think the movie HEAT is probably the best example of that.

I've had players complain about the attention to detail in my games, but I want it to be at least somewhat realistic. If you can explain it to me in a way that makes sense, I'll probably allow it.

Now, where am I gonna hide that Assault Cannon on my Harley...
Crusher Bob
I would assume you could dis-assemble the cannon, put the parts in your 'saddlebags' and put the barrel in long 'document tube' strapped to the side. If the barrel is too long, you can try some lengths of PVC pipe wrapped in Home Depot tape.

Assuming that the receiver of the cannon breaks down into a front half and back half, it would probably fit in the big 'saddle bags'.
KillaJ
If I'm packing anything heavier than a pistol it's usually a SMG, in which case it stays in a pizza delivery bag. It's not terribly inventive but it does the trick when you have to make that special delivery.
Crusher Bob
Come to think of it, I don;t think I've ever had to do a run where there as much of an intermediate stage between 'covered transportation' (to the site) and 'overt carry' when we needed more that everyday carry stuff.

For 'bulk moving' of guns, I'd back them in moving boxes with labels like 'Kitchen - Pots and Pans' of 'Garage - Tools', so anyone looking at them 'expects' them to contain heavy metallic objects (i.e. explains any noises, etc). Another option (if you have more than a couple boxes of guns) is to 'dress up' as a delivery company.

OC if you get stopped with a truck full of guns, you are probably screwed anyway. The above options are for where you need to carry the guns apartment stairs

Voran
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Was always partial to Leon's tacklebox in The Professional

I kinda liked John Cusack's Assassin Carry-on from Grosse Point Blank.

Otherwise a few gunsafes hidden and not-so hidden in various rooms around the home plus either a hidden storage closet/mini-workshop or a hidden closet within a closet, or in the garage.
Stumps
It depends on what my character is.

I don't make characters to be a continual effort to pull of the perfect crime.

Each character has a different style of MO.

I have had some like Mercer's.
If it doesn't fit in my dufflebag for me to take with me, then it isn't mine.
I never stay in the same place more than a week. After each job I move to a new place. Before each job I check out of my old place.
During the job my belongings ,. which are few, stay in a vehicle or somewhere I'm going to pick them up from.

I've had characters who run larger groups malitias. Then I have set-ups for the smuggling of the weapons. Paper trails that lead to movement of non-illegal items but that are actually moving our gear.
A false SIN and a U-haul is a great friend for me in this mode.

Other characters are gangers turned runner. I don't have much planning in my placement of my weapons with them. They keep them in their place. They hide them to the best of their ability.
If anyone really wanted to look, they could find them. It wouldn't be real hard.
Look in the closet in the cut-away space in the ceiling, look in the toilet back flusher lid. You'll find my Pred III taped to the inside of that toilet lid. Look on the underside of my matress. You'll find an SMG.
Things like that.

I've had characters that aren't meant to last long. They are purely out for an exact revenge against someone. Then I only have a couple of weapons and all my belongings are still where I used to live.
I have a SIN. I care not for my troubles or consequences of my actions to myself.
I am not out to get away with anything. I am only existing to make one man pay and nothing will stop me from that. My death will not happen until they die.
I keep my weapons on myself and I don't care who see's them. I move with a furrious speed and without rationality. I am their death in a swift rage.
I will die. This I know. So I care not for who knows my purpose. The more the man I am after knows that I am comming, the sooner that I can end his life.
I will show you my weapon without care. If you see it, then so will he.

So in the end...it depends on who I am.
toturi
Now that I've got SOTA 2064. Dipomatic Immunity. So I've got a Panther ASSault Cannon, so what officer? Illegal possession? The said weapon was mounted on my APC with diplomatic tags, baby.
Critias
That doesn't mean they won't report it, flag you as a potential troublemaker, follow you around, and wait for you to slip up -- or check on that diplomatic immunity you're waving around like a Get Out of Jail Free Card. A phone call or two can reveal that you're a fake, or get you in trouble back home if it's legit ("He's walking around carrying a what?").
Snow_Fox
More than that, even if it's legit there are two problems.

a) great, we can't arrest you, but the state dept has declared you personna non-grata, you have 24 hours to get out of the ocuntry or you will be arrested as a spy.

b) A seriously torqued of corp cop or over the edge Lone Star officer might not care. Ever see Leathal Weapon 2?
Joss Aukland, having just shot Mel Gibson : "Diplomatic immuinity!"

Danny Glover aiming a gun at him: BANG! "Just been revoked."
Snow_Fox
what personally set me off on this was yesterday while having a revolver repaired, I was looking at all the toys in a gun shop complete with clothes for hunters, and cases for bows and rifles. I had the thought that none of the cases would fit my Brown Bess musket, but would work for the length of AK-47's on sale, but not with the magazine on. the Ingram on sale in the case would probably fit the case for my revolver, but I'd have to be careful and keep the mag elsewhere. If you were just to toss these in the trunk of your car, sure it's convenient and there would be no reason at a traffic stop for an officer to look in the trunk, but they'd clatter around and might get banged up by other things in the trunk.


In our group we're always careful to detail where we keep handguns on our person- hi/shoulder/ankle holster etc. but it really is up to each player if they want to be that detailed in our home-those who aren't are just asking for trouble from the GM. leagal guns get detailed- beside table draw? other stuff we go into details about how they're hidden. With bigger stuff at a 2nd location held in another name- Sure You can search my place with your warrent mr detective.
or
"Sarge, we found a .50 cal MG in the guest room"
"And the guy who rants this pad?"
"No record of him anywhere else"
Siege
I try to keep a moderate level of realism when I try to outfit my characters so I can justify what gear I'm carrying and where.

I've also found that by noting what gear you carry where, you can give your mates a detailed list of what's still available to them when all they can recover are body parts.

Player 1: "Damnit, the medic just bought it! Quick, someone get the medkit!"

GM: "Well, you think that's his chest in the corner...one leg from the thigh down is near you and a seriously mangled helmet just stopped rolling."

Player 1: "Um, I grab the half of his torso nearest me!"

Me: "Sorry, it was strapped to my thigh - left leg."

Player 2: "Alright, I got the ... right thigh - anyone seen the matching piece?"

-Siege
jezryaldar
We also enforce realism levels. Once the players start getting out of control, I start subtracking from quickness and combat pool.

And I had a player who grab a downed bike (still functional) to follow someone who was escaping. He slung his heavily modified assualt rifle over his shoulder and started to take off. Lucky for him, the other members of his team pointed out that he didnt know exactly where the folks he was going to follow were going, and carrying that assualt rifle was probably a good way to get arrested....

My players usually take the extra guns and give them to gang / underworld contacts as gifts. ***GM side note, now that they have armed up one gang WAY beyond the others in the area, things are about to get interesting....
lodestar
One character I had was inventive enough he had a street sweeper shotgun concealed as an exaust pipe on his bike - an Idea I got from an actual false container you could get for streetbikes that looked like a muffler.

One should keep in mind that real devious hiding spots for guns if you're worried about the Star bustin down your door is probably pointless for most heavy-duty teams will probably have a mage who knows a detect bullets spell. If they're bustin down your door for whatever reason you'd better have already moved.

Hiding spots for guns at home are really just to keep the honest people from stealing them, or kids finding them - remember any real determined thief probably thinks like you do and will find it.

Of note, another character I had (The infamous Ivan) always carried a duffle bag around to collect guns in his idea of making his own retirement fund selling off guns. They all got stored nice and neat in packing crates waiting for the big sell of and retiring. Many a sec guard was punched out and had to explain to his boss how he lost his gun. Last count he had collected 6 HK-227, 3 AK-97, 2 Spike Launchers, 18 Predators, 13 Max Powers, 12 shotguns of various makes, 3 Ruger Thunderbolts, and a variety of other light pistols...
Snow_Fox
Our level of realism is sort of enforced. Our playing group includes hunters,an ex-soldier, and several of us own hand guns. All of us have a level of expertese in martial arts, Several of us are experience mountaineers, have done lots of camping, one is a software designer, several of us work in corporate america, one in construction, one in Insurance investigations, one is married to a police detective.
Lindt
I had one PC that had 10 low llifestyles, each having a cheep pistol and a cheep rifle. Not the most efficent, but there will always be somewhere to get a gun, some food, and a mostly dry place to sleep.
bitrunner
had a player once that made a character called "The Caddy"...that's right, dressed in golf clothes and walked around with a golf bag. Security guards usually just needed a 3-wood, but for those "difficult courses", the bag could hold an assault rifle or broken down LMG...

the other players kept joking that he needed a bag like the one in Caddyshack...
mfb
my character keeps 'em all in the unregistered van he keeps in long-term parking.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
Our level of realism is sort of enforced. Our playing group includes hunters,an ex-soldier, and several of us own hand guns. All of us have a level of expertese in martial arts, Several of us are experience mountaineers, have done lots of camping, one is a software designer, several of us work in corporate america, one in construction, one in Insurance investigations, one is married to a police detective.

And you all just need to relax and have some fun. It's a game, not real life.
Arethusa
Yeah, everyone knows you can't like it if it isn't escapism.
mfb
they only think they're having fun !!
Ol' Scratch
I guess if you allow little things to bother you and then waste everyone's time worrying over minute and meaningless details as "having fun," then I stand corrected. Because that's implied when someone says "our level of realism is sort of enforced."
toturi
QUOTE (Critias)
That doesn't mean they won't report it, flag you as a potential troublemaker, follow you around, and wait for you to slip up -- or check on that diplomatic immunity you're waving around like a Get Out of Jail Free Card. A phone call or two can reveal that you're a fake, or get you in trouble back home if it's legit ("He's walking around carrying a what?").

You can't walk around carrying it. You're breaking the law then, what you can do is put it on your diplomatic registered vehicle. Even if you put it in plain sight, it is still not breaking the law. Becuase it is plain sight in extreterritorial "grounds".

"You're carrying a what in your car?"

"Hey! It's standard procedure, man! I've been carrying that since Beirut!"
jezryaldar
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I guess if you allow little things to bother you and then waste everyone's time worrying over minute and meaningless details as "having fun," then I stand corrected. Because that's implied when someone says "our level of realism is sort of enforced."

QUOTE
"our level of realism is sort of enforced."


I should clarify, my earlier statement...

You are absolutely correct, having fun is our first priority. However, all of the people I have played with like some kind of boundary grounded in some level of what is rationale and realistic. This way, they know more of what to expect and it is easier for their suspension of disbelief. I would bet that the other post mentioning enforcement of reality is saying this due to the groups varied experience. For us, by doing this, it allows us to enjoy the game more.

I do not mean this to be antagonistic towards ANYONE'S gaming style, I only wanted to point out what has worked for our group. I am glad you brought this up as it showed the further clarification that was needed for my example to make better sense.
Siege
Doc Funk can be a tad acerbic at times - it's one of his better features.

-Siege
Shrapnel
So, for all of you GMs out there, how much is too much?

When do you start cracking down on the characters?

I also like this quote by Snow Fox:

QUOTE
In our group we're always careful to detail where we keep handguns on our person- hi/shoulder/ankle holster etc. but it really is up to each player if they want to be that detailed in our home-those who aren't are just asking for trouble from the GM.


I agree, anything not planned out properly is fair game for the GM...
Stumps
About the time the mage flies through the street next to the Troll carrying a Panther Cannon who's whistling dixie. grinbig.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Shrapnel)
When do you start cracking down on the characters?

When a player specifically states that they're trying to do something stupid, like carrying an assault rifle down Main Street despite common sense. Otherwise, I assume the character has a clue and rely on the Concealability rules (since they assume you're doing whatever it takes to keep them concealed in the first place) in any serious situation.
Solstice
It must be nice to have a GM like that. Mine continually tricks me with the infamous "Well you never said you had it under your coat etc..."
Ol' Scratch
That's probably because I don't play under the mindset that it's me versus them.
Shrapnel
How about something like this...

I had a player, who was standing in a busy bus station waiting for someone, suddenly decide he was going to "check his pistol to make sure it was loaded". This, of course, caused a great ruckus, which in turn got the guards interested, and led to an inevitable shootout, and the near capture of the character.

After the fact, the player got angry, saying he didn't mean he was going to pull out the gun completely. He was just going to look at it under his jacket... Pretty funny, huh?
Ol' Scratch
That would definitely fall under the "trying to do something stupid" bit mentioned in my previous post. Even if he was just pulling it out slightly, someone standing nearby would likely have caught sight of it anyway since by doing so he was no longer concealing it.
Shrapnel
That's kinda what I thought, common sense and all...

It was amazing how long he wanted to argue over that. I've got so many great stories of stupidity coming from this one player it's almost unbelievable.

Sad thing was, it was his first run with this new character, and he almost got fragged on the spot... The only thing that saved him was a benevolent GM, and a distraction by a local gang involving one of the unattended Lone Star vehicles...

Ah, the memories...
Stumps
I think it would have been better to have asked the player exactly how their character was going to go about checking if their gun was loaded.

As a GM, somtimes it's your job to help the players both communicate their ideas better and to realize the implications of what they, as players, are choosing to make their characters do.

A lot of times, like what Doc was saying, players choose to attempt things that characters would have common sense to do otherwise.
It's up to the GM to help the players realize that perhaps what may seem like a non-issue on RPG paper is actually a rather larger issue in the IC world.

This is a good way to put it.

I make only one assumption. That the players are trying something but may not be telling me right.

Trying to assume what a player is attempting to do or to teach them a lesson to make it more clear next time can often times just lead to upsetting the player.

GM's aren't just regulators. They're mentors as well. But above all. They are friends, and friends help eachother become better.
Siege
I've watched a lot of players give vague, ambiguous answers and then do a lot of backpedaling when the GM provides legitimate consequences for those actions.

Player 1: "I want to fly my drone high, but not too high."

GM: "?"

-Siege
Shrapnel
Stumps, just curious, but do you do things like remind your players to reload between firefights?

I feel that most of the important things are best left up to the character to decide. I do often feel that they should be given the benifit of the doubt, but I also feel that it is their responsibility to keep track of their own actions.

Now, checking a weapon in a crowded place isn't exactly subtle, no matter how you go about doing it. If he had wanted to make sure he was being inconspicuous, he should have said something.

I acknowledge and accept without question most of the normal things shadowrunners would do, but is the middle of a crowded bus station really the best time or place to be checking a weapon?
DocMortand
The method I as a GM use to get the players to be more aware of what they're carrying is the whole index card trick. All portable equipment (and most armor) goes on index cards (which I provide). When they go somewhere, they sort their cards into what they are carrying, what's in their vehicle, and what's left at their residence(s). This has the side effect of making them aware of what legality codes and concealability codes each item has, and well aware of what equip they carry to a run. (in other words, no sudden teleportation of illegal equipment because of a Lone Star stoppage)

It keeps them honest, and makes it easier for me to know whether or not something they are carrying is going to cause comment or not. Also streamlines play, IMO.
toturi
How about "I'll fly the drone high enough to get the good stuff, but no too high to get the bad stuff from the GM."
jezryaldar
QUOTE
The method I as a GM use to get the players to be more aware of what they're carrying is the whole index card trick.


I like this one. Thankx... biggrin.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Solstice @ Nov 29 2004, 12:00 PM)
It must be nice to have a GM like that. Mine continually tricks me with the infamous "Well you never said you had it under your coat etc..."

I had a GM once who did things like that, like ...

'You didn't state that you locked your front door (or car), so all your stuff is gone.'

After several episodes of this happening (not necessarily to me and my character), I left. ohplease.gif
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Shrapnel)
Stumps, just curious, but do you do things like remind your players to reload between firefights?

Aha, but whether or not they should reload depends on how many magazines they have and how many rounds they used.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Solstice @ Nov 29 2004, 12:00 PM)
It must be nice to have a GM like that. Mine continually tricks me with the infamous "Well you never said you had it under your coat etc..."

I had a GM once who did things like that, like ...

'You didn't state that you locked your front door (or car), so all your stuff is gone.'

After several episodes of this happening (not necessarily to me and my character), I left. ohplease.gif

Yeah, that's not a GM; that's a solid asshole.

I'm not saying GM's shouldn't screw their players. Hell, I honestly find most anecdotes involving far too gentle GMs that are willing to pick up slack for lazy, incompetent, or willfully ignorant players, and that should not be tolerated, but despite Funk being a bit of a jerk about it, he's right: it's not GM v. Players in a battle to the death. And don't forget that this cuts both ways: GMs should not make it their mission to fuck up their players and Player should not try and weasel and whine their way out of mistakes when they know they screwed up.

It's so damn simple in theory.
Siege
Several factors play into the topic - ammo conservation versus rates of fire and feasibility of being re-equipped in the field and so on.

Since most 'runs happen in an urban setting, players don't have to show the same restraint they might otherwise be required to use in-country, away from friendly supply depots.

And if you've got a seriously trigger-happy soul, salvaging weapons and ammo from the dead and dying is a time-honored tradition on the off-chance available ammo supplies become an issue.

-Siege
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