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Crimson Jack
Okay, so you purchase them individually, right? Are they listed as an individual purchase (thus a total of 2 Essence, base) because they're the only type of typically paired cyber out there to do so, or is this something that should be taken into consideration for other paired cyberware? I'm referring to things like spurs, cyberskates, cybereyes, etc. Things that you could put together.

I looked for more information regarding this. So if its there, I'm a big dummycakes.
Ol' Scratch
Yes, they're purchased individually though you (logically) need to buy two of them to gain their benefits. I'm sure someone'll pop up in here and whine about the use of "s" in "Legs," though, so brace yourself for that.

Spurs, Hand Razors, Handblades, and other implants like that are also purchased singularly and, in the case of those three at least, you get an added bonus if you buy a pair of them (in that you get damage-and-a-half for the Power of your attacks). Others require you to use common sense. If in doubt, compare it to similar implants and determine if they're talking about a singular item as a whole, or one you buy individually but in pairs.
Ancient History
Cybereyes and cyberskates are already grouped together; although you can purchase single cybereyes if you want to.

Spurs are another matter. A cyberspur is either three blades permanently mounted on the back of your hand, or the more favored blade-that-slides out of arm approach. If you want to cyberspurs (say, one on each arm; or the Hatchetman option; or the always-amusing Darwin Awards), you have to buy the augmentation seperately for each implanted retractable blade or set of three non-retractables.
Rev
Yea the legs are per leg.

And hand razors are purchased in groups of 4, 5, 8, or 10 depending on how you decide to read the rule. So far nobody has claimed they are bought per finger.
Fortune
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Dec 4 2004, 01:10 PM)
Spurs are another matter. A cyberspur is either three blades permanently mounted on the back of your hand, or the more favored blade-that-slides out of arm approach. If you want to cyberspurs (say, one on each arm; or the Hatchetman option; or the always-amusing Darwin Awards), you have to buy the augmentation seperately for each implanted retractable blade or set of three non-retractables.

As ar as I know, all Spurs, both the single arm spur and the tri-bladed hand variety, have the option of being retractable, at an increased cost in both money and Essence.
Ol' Scratch
Yeah, you have normal spurs (non-retractable, and your only option if you want the three pronger version) and retractable spurs (available only with the single blade version). You don't buy an "accessory" for the retractable version; they just have their own costs.
Rev
BTW man & machine specifies that kid stealth legs are (ea.) in the table, which means each.
Botch
Yes, but it always strikes me as funny when I try to picture somebody only implanting 1 KS cyberleg.
Fix-it
Maybe they can't afford two. Or they lost a leg, and being the tards they are, they decided to get ONE KS leg.
lodestar
I guess that the provision is there so that some sort of maybe SURGED genetic half chicken half man can get only one cyberleg.... wink.gif

But I would guess they put them in as individual in case say one of your KS legs gets destroyed (seeing as though people with KS legs are usually cybered up combat monsters) you can pay the cost of replacing it, rather than both.
Toptomcat
QUOTE
(seeing as though people with KS legs are usually cybered up combat monsters)

Really? It's my experience that the cybered-up combat monsters don't wanna go for cyberlimbs, even KS ones- too much Essance, too little benefit.
kevyn668
QUOTE (Toptomcat)
QUOTE
(seeing as though people with KS legs are usually cybered up combat monsters)

Really? It's my experience that the cybered-up combat monsters don't wanna go for cyberlimbs, even KS ones- too much Essance, too little benefit.

You're both right.
lodestar
Not saying KS legs are the way to go, but I can't tink of any other occupation someone who might have one might do. wink.gif

Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (lodestar)
I guess that the provision is there so that some sort of maybe SURGED genetic half chicken half man can get only one cyberleg.... wink.gif

Or Satyrs, seeing as how they have the same +1 running multiplier thing.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 4 2004, 04:03 AM)
As ar as I know, all Spurs, both the single arm spur and the tri-bladed hand variety, have the option of being retractable, at an increased cost in both money and Essence.

I was under the same impression as well.

*Goes to get books to check.....*

[EDIT]
QUOTE
Spur: This narrow blade is attached to the users bone, similar to a razor. Retractable versions must be placed where they can be withdrawn along a long bone. Alternatively, a set of three smaller blades may be anchored to the back of the hand.........


Isn't a long single spur "anchored"?

I can see this getting into a discussion in somantics about wording.....
Ol' Scratch
Trust me on this one. The tri-pronged spurs are only available if braced to the back of the hand. Only the single-bladed version is available as a retractable spur.
Fresno Bob
And they do the same damage, right? That makes no sense.
Ancient History
QUOTE (vorhees)
And they do the same damage, right? That makes no sense.

Three smaller blades versus one big blade? Maybe, maybe not.

Anywho, this is, generally speaking, known colloquially as the "No, you can't play a Wolverine clone." ruling.
Ol' Scratch
Yes, but it's one big blade vs. three small blades.

In any case, note how the rules for the three-blade version comes after the mention of retractable versions, and it specifically states that it's anchored to the back of the hand. No mention of retractableness.

Not like it matters. No one ever really pays attention to it anyway. <gestures to the numerous people in this thread who didn't even know about it>
Shockwave_IIc
I always took it as personal taste anyway.

Neither hold a "Rule based" advantage over the other. (In my games anyway.)
Ancient History
Well, aside from the slight noticability issue.
Ol' Scratch
I'm pretty sure he was talking one-prong vs. three-prongs as opposed to standard vs. retractable.
Ancient History
I thought we just went over that!
moosegod
You thought Dr. Funk would leave something minor alone?
Ol' Scratch
Eh? Excuse the hell out of me for helping clarify something. Sheesh.
Ancient History
I just thought we'd agreed the three-prongs were strictly non-retractable, is all.
Ol' Scratch
We did for the most part. Shockwave -- at least as far as I understood -- was just saying that he didn't particularly care because rules-wise, there was no difference between the one- or three-pronged versions.
Ancient History
Except that because the tri-blades are nonretractable, they're a lot easier to see, as I said aforetime.
Ol' Scratch
Oy.
Fortune
Well, that's just another thing that gets put in the house-rule department of my games.
Mercer
As someone who was brought here from a link in another topic, let me just say after reading about the 3-prongs and single prongs retractable and non-retractables, how relieved I am to learn we are talking about cyberspurs.
Ancient History
Welcome to Shadowrun, please check your Mr. Studd implant at the door...
Shrapnel
Not to add fuel to the fire, but it almost looks like the old artwork led to the assumption of retractable 3-blade spurs. Check out the old pic of the Street Samurai from 1st or 2nd Edition. There was even a pic of a troll in 2nd Ed. that had 4 spurs on one hand, where the previous pic of the same troll didn't show any spurs.

Now, what kind of damage would 4 Troll-sized spur blades do... devil.gif
Jason Farlander
QUOTE
Now, what kind of damage would 4 Troll-sized spur blades do...

This is just a guess here, but I'd say, oh, (STR)M damage.
Shrapnel
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
QUOTE
Now, what kind of damage would 4 Troll-sized spur blades do...

This is just a guess here, but I'd say, oh, (STR)M damage.

Darn, looks like my sarcasm button is broken again...
Mercer
You have a sarcasm button?

Actually, you brought up a good point I was going to reply to earlier, until apathy overtook me. Seems like a troll could fit a bigger blade on or in their arm. Might only be worth a +1 or +2 to the power level, but I really wouldn't have a problem with it.

Though I can imagine all the characters buying the troll-sized forearm snap blades, necessitating all sorts of modifiers for non-troll users. Maybe I'll just hope nobody in my group brings this up.
Jason Farlander
Nope. A troll-sized combat axe (25% cost increase) only does (STR)S damage, just like a normal axe, so i dont see why troll-sized spurs would do any extra damage.
Mercer
That may be the way the rules work, but it doesn't make any sense. If a retractable spur is the size of knife (which would be handknife, but go with me) and a troll sized spur is the size of a machete, and a knife and a machete have different damage codes, it is not an impossible leap in logic to argue that the spurs might have different damage codes.

My intial thought of a +1 or +2 to the power level came from the difference between the knife and the cougar fineblade. Again, it would be a houserule, but it really doesn't seem unreasonable.
Jason Farlander
Eh, I think of it as a kind of how much relative force can you put behind the weapon sort of thing, but, admittedly, I only use that as an excuse to accept the canon system and move on. It may or may not make any *real* sense, but it makes enough fake sense that I can accept it and move on. I dont think trolls need any help in their melee damage-dealing capabilities.
Mercer
As I said, since I can't muster any really convincing arguments against it, I'll hunker down and hope none of my players bring it up.
Fortune
If they do, just tell them it's all factored into the higher Power Level from having a higher Strength.

If a normal human uses a Troll-sized axe, he wouldn't do any more damage with it (and might possibly do less).
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Dr Funkenstein)
We did for the most part. Shockwave -- at least as far as I understood -- was just saying that he didn't particularly care because rules-wise, there was no difference between the one- or three-pronged versions.

QUOTE ( Ancient History)
Except that because the tri-blades are nonretractable, they're a lot easier to see, as I said aforetime.


What i ment when i said

QUOTE (Shockwave)
I always took it as personal taste anyway.

Neither hold a "Rule based" advantage over the other. (In my games anyway.)


Was

QUOTE (Fortune)
Well, that's just another thing that gets put in the house-rule department of my games.


Sorry to cause any confusion.
Fortune
Glad to be of assistance. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
I think what AH was missing was that the comparison was between a nonretractable single blade and a nonretractable three-blade arrangement. If one wants to go retractable then yes, suddenly we have a rules-based difference.

~J
Jason Farlander
No, what he was missing was that, from a game balance perspective, there is no functional difference between the tri-bladed spur and the single-bladed spur - its a purely aesthetic difference - and so many people, such as Shockwave_IIc, have no problems ruling that either one can be made retractable, despite canon wording to the contrary.
Mercer
QUOTE (Fortune)
If a normal human uses a Troll-sized axe, he wouldn't do any more damage with it (and might possibly do less).

But its still hinky. A sword has one damage code, a claymore another. If a troll troll-sizes a sword, it has the damage code of the first. If he just buys the claymore (which he can one handed, like a sword) it had the damage code of the second. If he troll sizes the claymore, the damage code remains the same, but he may have to wield it two handed (considering the fact the damn thing will probably be about three meters long).

I wouldn't be adverse to a variable damage code based on the size of the weapon, similar to what D&D uses. (Calmly dousing myself in gasoline, lighting the match, and buring myself for heresy.)

As to multi-pronger non-retractables vs single-pronged retractables (we're still talking about spurs, right?), since it is purely a matter of what it looks like and there is no mechanical difference, I wouldn't enforce the restriction in my games. The people that want to play Wolverine need all the help they can get. (Like titanium bonelacing, olfactory boosts, and the drug from CalFree that gives the critter power Regeneration.)
Ol' Scratch
I just prefer to treat trolls as being moderately larger than orks. Fits the art and most of the rules better, too. (Especially their average weight.) That way, their weapons are the same as everyone else, only the grips are modified for their larger hands.
kevyn668
QUOTE (Mercer)
Actually, you brought up a good point I was going to reply to earlier, until apathy overtook me. Seems like a troll could fit a bigger blade on or in their arm. Might only be worth a +1 or +2 to the power level, but I really wouldn't have a problem with it.
.

What? Trolls need yet another advantage in melee combat?
Mercer
I don't think they need it, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to deny it. If the blade in a troll's arm is larger than the one in a human's arm, it does make more sense to have its damage code mirror that of the larger blades. Say, the difference between a knife and a fineblade (which is where my +2 came from, so its not like I pulled it from the clear blue sky).

I'm not a big fan of nonsensical rules that are only there for "game balance". At least Doc Funks suggestion of making trolls "a little bit bigger than orks" makes logical sense in why their weapons wouldn't do more damage.
Ol' Scratch
I said moderately larger. nyahnyah.gif

The difference between an Ork and a Human (Body +3, Strength +2) is greater than the difference between a Troll and an Ork (Body +2, Quickness -1, Strength +2). I don't see why a 8-inch and 55-pound difference between Orks and Humans should have a more profound impact on Body than a 35-inch and 287-pound difference between Troll and Ork does (using the average height/weights by the book).
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