Dumpshock Forums > Electronic Firing

McCummhail

Aug 27 2009, 06:44 PM

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 27 2009, 01:07 PM)

Wow, this has been a busy thread in my absence... all of what, ten hours?
...Snip...
All of that having been said, I don't see power, or magnet size as the real hurdle in bringing a "gauss rifle" down from assault cannon to HMG in the next 5-10 years from the one pictured in Arsenal, but going smaller, we're back to "how do you keep the blasted thing from blowing itself open every time you fire?" from the stresses of those same powerful magnets pushing against each OTHER.
...snip...

I think we are all assuming that the future Gauss Weapon is by default a "Rail Gun".
Yes, rails are more efficient and more powerful. The same forces that make rail guns powerful make them hard to miniaturize. etc etc etc

A "Gauss Gun" also known as a "Coil Gun" has already been made in a handheld sized package but due to the barrier of modern energy storage and conduction technology (2009), it got one shot with the equivalent of a car battery attached (also making it pretty heavy).
With Unobtainium batteries and Handwavium conduction, the modern barriers to a Coil based Gauss gun would be significantly reduced.
EDIT:

QUOTE (mmmkay @ Aug 27 2009, 02:42 PM)

it's a light pistol and I was wondering when yamaha will make a heavy heavy heavy pistol version
edit: yamaha has a new line of electronic weapons coming out, so I guess it wouldn't be too unreasonable to hope that I could buy a heavier version with GM approval

You might check out "An Arsenal of my Own" topic for a draft of a new Fubuki gun.

Discuss!

Kerenshara

Aug 27 2009, 06:52 PM

QUOTE (mmmkay @ Aug 27 2009, 01:42 PM)

i recall it being a light pistol with light pistol ammunition, light pistol range, and light pistol concealability and light pistol size

and if I may quote for you

"Yamaha Sakura Fubuki: The ⦣8364;œCherry-Blossom Storm⦣8364;? is the
flagship for Yamaha⦣8364;™s new line of electronic weapons that feature no
moving parts. Rather than a standard magazine, the bullets are stacked
in-line in each of the four barrels, allowing the firing of ultra-fast short
bursts. The Fubuki may only fire narrow bursts (not wide), but burst
recoil is handled like SA recoil (⦣8364;“1 Recoil on the second burst each
Action Phase only). Includes an integral folding stock."

this is under light pistols btw in SR4a

it's a light pistol and I was wondering when yamaha will make a heavy heavy heavy pistol version

edit: yamaha has a new line of electronic weapons coming out, so I guess it wouldn't be too unreasonable to hope that I could buy a heavier version with GM approval

I know where it is on the tables; My complaint is that the needed volume (and the picture supports this) means it's going to be a heck of a lot bigger than a "light pistol". Specifically, adding a second clip (Arsenal) adds two the concealability of a pistol. Adding four barrels can't be smaller than that. It's kind of like the breach loading anti-troll pistol. That's a big piece of hardware, too. Fine, maybe not small SMG, but at LEAST a full machine pistol in size.

Kerenshara

Aug 27 2009, 06:56 PM

QUOTE (McCummhail @ Aug 27 2009, 01:44 PM)

I think we are all assuming that the future Gauss Weapon is by default a "Rail Gun".
Yes, rails are more efficient and more powerful. The same forces that make rail guns powerful make them hard to miniaturize. etc etc etc

A "Gauss Gun" also known as a "Coil Gun" has already been made in a handheld sized package but due to the barrier of modern energy storage and conduction technology (2009), it got one shot with the equivalent of a car battery attached (also making it pretty heavy).
With Unobtainium batteries and Handwavium conduction, the modern barriers to a Coil based Gauss gun would be significantly reduced.

I'm being REALLY sloppy making reference to ALL EM propelled weapons as "gauss". It's the BattleTech player in me.

I'm looking at the Thunderstruck as pictured and I'm feeling "rail" rather than "coil", wouldn't you agree? Or do you have a reason to think that's a "coil" weapon? My understanding had "coil" being lower velocity, better for things like mortars while "rail" was higher power, apropriate for Anti Tank duties and Howitzers.

Earlydawn

Aug 27 2009, 07:01 PM

I didn't see this mentioned, but bear in mind the armor peircing qualities of metalstorm. Since the rounds are being fired in such a small interval, they form a "lance" that would generally hit close enough to cooperate in digging through body armor.

Man, do I love that tube-fed sidearm model they've been showing..

X-Kalibur

Aug 27 2009, 07:04 PM

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 27 2009, 01:52 PM)

I know where it is on the tables; My complaint is that the needed volume (and the picture supports this) means it's going to be a heck of a lot bigger than a "light pistol". Specifically, adding a second clip (Arsenal) adds two the concealability of a pistol. Adding four barrels can't be smaller than that. It's kind of like the breach loading anti-troll pistol. That's a big piece of hardware, too. Fine, maybe not small SMG, but at LEAST a full machine pistol in size.

Well, in the case of the Eichio Hatamoto II(?) it's just a pistol receiver modified to fire shotgun slugs, no? Yeah, it would be farking big, but at the very least smaller than a short-barreled (sawn-off, whichever term you prefer) shotgun, only you're working with one barrel and less stock. I would argue that brings it down nice to HP size, at least for terms of concealability. Don't make me link the picture of the SiG 5.56 pistol, it will make all the gunbunnies weep for joy. (Albeit that particular piece is closer to MP/SMG size)

McCummhail

Aug 27 2009, 07:10 PM

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 27 2009, 02:56 PM)

I'm looking at the Thunderstruck as pictured and I'm feeling "rail" rather than "coil", wouldn't you agree? Or do you have a reason to think that's a "coil" weapon? My understanding had "coil" being lower velocity, better for things like mortars while "rail" was higher power, apropriate for Anti Tank duties and Howitzers.

I am with you that the Thunderstruck is a "Rail Gun".
However, my supposition is that a "Coil Gun" with SR technologies could give interesting results.

Kerenshara

Aug 27 2009, 07:12 PM

QUOTE (Earlydawn @ Aug 27 2009, 02:01 PM)

I didn't see this mentioned, but bear in mind the armor peircing qualities of metalstorm. Since the rounds are being fired in such a small interval, they form a "lance" that would generally hit close enough to cooperate in digging through body armor.

Man, do I love that tube-fed sidearm model they've been showing..

Assuming that really happens. But if your target is moving noticably, you're not going to get the same hole. They didn't give the Sakura Fubuki an AP bonus, and in fact, it still has to get over the armor threshold same as a machine pistol, and I agree with that whole-heartedly.

As to the pistol model, how long do you think it will take to reload under stress? How durable is that "stack" of rounds? What happens if you hit it hard (diving for cover)?

Kerenshara

Aug 27 2009, 07:58 PM

QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 27 2009, 02:04 PM)

Well, in the case of the Eichio Hatamoto II(?) it's just a pistol receiver modified to fire shotgun slugs, no? Yeah, it would be farking big, but at the very least smaller than a short-barreled (sawn-off, whichever term you prefer) shotgun, only you're working with one barrel and less stock. I would argue that brings it down nice to HP size, at least for terms of concealability. Don't make me link the picture of the SiG 5.56 pistol, it will make all the gunbunnies weep for joy. (Albeit that particular piece is closer to MP/SMG size)

One of the reasons I want back the old-style unique Concealability numbers.

*note to self, finish the damned firearms rules you're working on...*

It's about the size of a Predator IV (another damned big piece of steel) with the stock FOLDED. You really want to try to fire that like a pistol? (Can I watch? *grin*)

I'd put the Eichio Hatamoto II at +2 conceal. Of course, I would put the Predator at +1. (Back when, it had a Concealability of 4 - the same as most big SMGs.)

Kerenshara

Aug 27 2009, 07:59 PM

QUOTE (McCummhail @ Aug 27 2009, 02:10 PM)

I am with you that the Thunderstruck is a "Rail Gun".
However, my supposition is that a "Coil Gun" with SR technologies could give interesting results.

Sure, but what advantage (that outweigh the drawbacks) can you come up with in a man-portable version? *grin*

In a vehicle, I can think of lots (thus why they're playing with it).

McAllister

Aug 27 2009, 08:06 PM

I was reading the wrong page when I posted this. Carry on.

McCummhail

Aug 27 2009, 08:41 PM

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 27 2009, 03:59 PM)

Sure, but what advantage (that outweigh the drawbacks) can you come up with in a man-portable version? *grin*

Very simple. It is
E-LEC-TRO-MAG-NE-TIC!
A man portable coil gun with SR tech could be silent, low-recoil, high-velocity, use caseless ammunition, require no vulnerable explosives, and run on a rechargeable battery pack.

Also, without the need for the standard gun mechanisms, the shape could also be dramatically altered.
This could lead to more fun!

It still isn't as cool as a Particle Projection Cannon.

McAllister

Aug 27 2009, 08:59 PM

QUOTE (McCummhail @ Aug 27 2009, 04:41 PM)

Very simple. It is
E-LEC-TRO-MAG-NE-TIC!
A man portable coil gun with SR tech could be silent, low-recoil, high-velocity, use caseless ammunition, require no vulnerable explosives, and run on a rechargeable battery pack.

Also, without the need for the standard gun mechanisms, the shape could also be dramatically altered.
This could lead to more fun!

It still isn't as cool as a Particle Projection Cannon.

First, I know a smidgeon about coil gun and rail gun technology, but in terms of making a man-portable weapon, what's the practical difference?

Second, low-recoil? How does that not violate Newton's beloved law? Never having fired a coil gun, I know not where the reactive force goes.

Kerenshara

Aug 27 2009, 09:27 PM

QUOTE (McCummhail @ Aug 27 2009, 03:41 PM)

Very simple. It is
E-LEC-TRO-MAG-NE-TIC!
A man portable coil gun with SR tech could be silent, low-recoil, high-velocity, use caseless ammunition, require no vulnerable explosives, and run on a rechargeable battery pack.

Also, without the need for the standard gun mechanisms, the shape could also be dramatically altered.
This could lead to more fun!

OK, again, what I've seen so far seems to apply to things like mortars, not hand-held devices.

Silent? Does the projectile break the sound barrier?
Low Recoil, I will touch on below.
High velocity, mortars move pretty quick. Why would you want a faster mortar? Defeats their purpose.
Technically a mortar is "caseless" ammunition, and all you'd be removing is the charge. It would be more accurate to say it's "propellant-less".
Shape altered, to what? Away from being a tube?

QUOTE (McAllister @ Aug 27 2009, 03:59 PM)

First, I know a smidgeon about coil gun and rail gun technology, but in terms of making a man-portable weapon, what's the practical difference?

Second, low-recoil? How does that not violate Newton's beloved law? Never having fired a coil gun, I know not where the reactive force goes.

Yeah, recoil. The advantage is the actual curve of generated recoil is smooth and predictable, whereas powder spikes then falls off. It's easier to compensate for EM recoil from an engineering perspective.

What do you mean about "what's the practical diference" in terms of scaling down? Souns like you had a speciffic question in mind.

McCummhail

Aug 27 2009, 09:33 PM

QUOTE (McAllister @ Aug 27 2009, 04:59 PM)

First, I know a smidgeon about coil gun and rail gun technology, but in terms of making a man-portable weapon, what's the practical difference?
Second, low-recoil? How does that not violate Newton's beloved law? Never having fired a coil gun, I know not where the reactive force goes.

The issue with a rail gun is that the force in the rails that propels the projectile also threatens to break the chamber so it needs significant reinforcement. In a small package this might become an issue.
A coil gun charges/discharges electromagnetic coils in a linear sequence to continually pull and release the projectile out the chamber. The flinging of the bullet is essentially your 'reactive force'.

As an aside, Amateur (semi-pro hobbyist?) coil guns can already match the power of a .22 rifle (which admittedly isn't earth-shattering, but...).
Video with some explanation.

McAllister

Aug 28 2009, 12:49 AM

No question more specific than "what is one design better at, what is the other design better at." Thank you for the explanation, I have a pretty good idea what's going on now, especially having visited wikipedia.

McCummhail

Aug 28 2009, 02:56 AM

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 27 2009, 05:27 PM)

OK, again, what I've seen so far seems to apply to things like mortars, not hand-held devices.
Silent? Does the projectile break the sound barrier?
High velocity, mortars move pretty quick. Why would you want a faster mortar? Defeats their purpose.
Technically a mortar is "caseless" ammunition, and all you'd be removing is the charge. It would be more accurate to say it's "propellant-less".
Shape altered, to what? Away from being a tube?

You have a point!
I wager unless the voltage was tuned down, even a pistol sized coil gun would be busting the sound barrier.
Well, at least the coil gun doesn't spark like a rail gun (unless there's a problem!).

I can see why this would be good for mortars, do you not see this technology beyond the mortar?

I was conceptualizing that if the tube and power is all that's needed, then there is more flexibility in how it is arranged.
Also, under examination, the various pieces wouldn't necessarilly resemble a gun making a puzzler like arrangement easier.

And
BUCKSHOT @2:15
High velocity scatter shot!
But I wager the scatter is much larger.

Draco18s

Aug 28 2009, 05:19 AM

QUOTE (McAllister @ Aug 27 2009, 12:06 PM)

I'm sorry, sir, but you're wrong. It's right there in the errata; the man-portable Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle halves all non-smart armor. Which means it wrecks people. And since it takes -4 from your halved armor, it's not even going to leave very large chunks of meat.

I was responding more along the lines of a hand held needler, not a HMG sized behemoth.

McAllister

Aug 28 2009, 05:32 AM

Apologies, I needn't have responded like that.

Earlydawn

Aug 28 2009, 07:49 AM

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 27 2009, 03:12 PM)

Assuming that really happens. But if your target is moving noticably, you're not going to get the same hole. They didn't give the Sakura Fubuki an AP bonus, and in fact, it still has to get over the armor threshold same as a machine pistol, and I agree with that whole-heartedly.

As to the pistol model, how long do you think it will take to reload under stress? How durable is that "stack" of rounds? What happens if you hit it hard (diving for cover)?

I'm pretty sure that anything capable of moving three rounds out the barrel in a single split second interval is going to effectively be a needle.

crash2029

Aug 28 2009, 07:57 AM

All of this back and forth about rail guns, coil guns, liquid-propellant, electronic firing and whatnot is making it difficult to keep the Mad Scientist™ in the corner of my brain in check. If I'm not careful he's liable to start laughing maniacally and begin plotting world domination with an array of doomsday devices.

Uh-oh, I think I feel like cackling hysterically...

Draco18s

Aug 28 2009, 03:46 PM

QUOTE (crash2029 @ Aug 28 2009, 02:57 AM)

All of this back and forth about rail guns, coil guns, liquid-propellant, electronic firing and whatnot is making it difficult to keep the Mad Scientist™ in the corner of my brain in check. If I'm not careful he's liable to start laughing maniacally and begin plotting world domination with an array of doomsday devices.

Uh-oh, I think I feel like cackling hysterically...

Eh, M'Lady V already took over the world once. Turns out no one wanted it.